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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: goldie61 on Thursday 28 September 23 04:54 BST (UK)
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I would be grateful for a transcription of this (part), of this will of Jane Fenys, Lady Dacre, please.
Although it continues with a second paragraph written in English, I'm not convinced it is merely a translation of this Latin part.
There seem to be more people mentioned in this first part.
Many thanks
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The Latin and English sections are completely different. The Latin is personal while the English relates chiefly to lands.
I've extracted the names from the Latin part. If you need more it will take a lot longer. I don't recognize many of the words.
As an aside, probate was 14 June 1486.
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Thomas Fenys son of John Fenys Knight
Edward Fenys brother of the above Thomas
William Cheyne Esquire
Joan Jeffrey
Thomas Oxenbrigge
Aleyn Taylo(ur)
John Pensell Rector of Herstmonceux
Nicholas Bernet de Castret
Robert Barre (more info is given for him but I'm not immediately able to work it out)
James Fenys
Nicholas Saleh(ur)st
Humphrey her servant
Joan Lynch
Alice her servant
Symynet Stout
Elizabeth Lady Clynton
Thomas Fenys her son
William also her son
Thomas and William her sons, Thomas Oxenbrigge and John Pensell are the executors.
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Thanks very much horselydown.
Lots of sons mentioned.
I thought I could see something about 'Rich Fenys' on line 4 - possibly something about where she was to be buried? Sir Richard Fenys was her husband. He is not mentioned in your list.
Might I trouble you for a fuller translation if possible from the end of line 5 where she leaves Thomas, the son of John Fenys a bequest, to the end of line 9, ending Thomas Oxenbrigge.
Also on line 13, James Fenys is mentioned very briefly - can you make out what it says about him?
And at the start of line 18 is mentioned Elizabeth, Lady Clinton - I think she was Jane's daughter, married to John, Lord of Clinton and Saye. Can you make out why she is mentioned? Is she an executor along with Jane's sons Thomas and William?
Thank you very much for any help with this.
Second part of first paragraph.
James Fenys is mentioned on line 2 of this, and Elizabeth Lady Clinton 5th line from the bottom.
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I apologize for missing Ric(ard)i ffenys from my list. I saw him in my initial scan (to see how hard it was going to be) but when I went back forgot about him and started at the first personal bequest to Thomas son of John. It does appear this relates to her instructions about where to be buried:
...and my body [sepelvend' - can't find this word] in the choir of the church of the parish of All Saints of Herstmonceux between the high altar & the tomb of Richard Fenys Knight formerly my lord...
Regarding James Fenys, she beqeaths to him two cows [vaccas] and two bovect' or bonect'. This bequest occurs several times.
I think the latter is probably a heifer. The Record Interpreter gives bovetta as heifer.
She bequeaths to Elizabeth Lady Clynton and Thomas Fenys her son ...o(m)nia catall' mea & iocalia mea... not bequeathed to be divided between them equally.
The first could be either cattle or chattels. The second may be jewels. The Record Interpreter gives jocale as jewel.
I'll tackle the longer section later.
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It does appear this relates to her instructions about where to be buried:
...and my body [sepelvend' - can't find this word] in the choir of the church of the parish of All Saints of Herstmonceux between the high altar & the tomb of Richard Fenys Knight formerly my lord...
Is the problem word sepeliend[um]? (gerundive, I think)
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Yes, that looks good to me, thank you Arthur.
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Here's a rough stab at the section from the end of line 5 to the middle of line 10.
...It(e)m lego Thome ffenys
filio Johannis ffenys militis om(n)ia utensilia mea p(er)tinen' ad coquina(m) pandoxator' sive ad pastoria(m) It(e)m
lego p(re)dict' Thome ffenys the hangyng p(er)tinen' ad Aula(m) ad [p(ar)luram?] & ad magna cam(er)am cum [lect?] eisdem
[cam(erae)?] p(er)tinen' It(e)m lego Edwardo ffenys ff(rat)ri p(re)dicti Thome ffenys xl marc(as) It(e)m lego Will(el)mo Cheyne armig(er)o
unam crateram cum coop(er)torio suo existen' ad [vid?ed?] cum Joh(ann)e Jeffrey It(e)m Thome Oxenbrigge
unam crateram voc(at) a standing cupp cum coop(er)tor(io) suo...
...Item I bequeath to Thomas Fenys the son of John Fenys Knight all my utensils pertaining to cooking [brewing/brewers/alehouses] or to [shepherd?] Item
I bequeath to the aforesaid Thomas Fenys the hangyng pertaining to the hall to the [parluram?] & the great [room/vault] with the [lect' - may be a reading desk]
[to the same room pertaining?] Item I bequeath to Edward Fenys the brother of the aforesaid Thomas Fenys forty marks Item I bequeath to William Cheyne Esquire
one [chest according to The Record Interpreter - other references say a bowl or cup] with its cover [existing?] until [?] with Joan Jeffrey Item to Thomas Oxenbrigge
one cup called a standing cupp with its cover...
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Sorry, horselydown - you're doing all the hard work, and it seems like I'm just popping up afterwards with the odd comment on things you've queried. But here are a few anyway.
Based on The Record Interpreter, I wonder if there are some non-conventional spellings:
pastoriam - the context would support pasteriam (pastry)
parluram - ditto parloram (parlour)
And there seems to be a repeated phrase something like existens ad vadimendum. I can't find that in The Record Interpreter or my pocket dictionary, but I suspect it's something like 'as a security'. (Had she in effect pawned these items?)
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The Revised Medieval Latin Word-List gives vadiamentum, meaning a pledge, bail or security; also vademonium.
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Many thanks indeed horselydown for all your work.
And also arthurk and Watson who contributed.
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sepelio sepelire means to bury (it's irregular) and that looks like a gerund.
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A gerundive, actually, Clayton, as was noted by Arthur on the first page of the thread.
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Apologies, missed that.