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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Time Runner on Wednesday 27 September 23 09:36 BST (UK)
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Can anyone identify this chap's uniform?
I think it's allied WWII, but it may be earlier (or later if I'm completely lost!).
Family stories would have it that he's an ancestor of mine, but I have little to go on, so any help in identifying his military credentials would be gratefully received.
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Although the slouch hat is most closely associated with the Australian Army, it was/is worn by soldiers of many other nations including the UK, Canada, New Zealand, Ireland, India and even France in certain circumstances. The key to identifying this chap's unit is his capbadge, which is difficult to make out. My initial though was that it isn't the Australian Infantry rising sun badge, but hard to be sure. Also the shoulder flash may be some help although I haven't been able to find it.
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Hi Andy,
Thanks for the reply. It's a tricky one, isn't it!
I've attached a detail from the back of the photo, a serial number. I don't know if it's relevant, or simply some photographer's admin (there's also a handwritten personal note, which I haven't included because I was worried that this wasn't the correct section of the forum for it; I understand that Roots Chat has a separate section for dating photos and identifying handwriting...?).
And also, family tradition would suggest that he lived or was stationed at or near, or passed through, East Grinstead, Sussex, England, some time during the first half of 1940. I share this fact with trepidation as it may be a red herring. As I said in my original post, I have very little to go on.
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The shoulder flash is possibly the 20th Indian Infantry Division:
https://www.brittonsbadges.co.uk/en-GB/wwii-indian-formation-signs/20th-indian-infantry-division-formation-sign/prod_12398
Tony
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Hi Tony,
Thanks for the reply. I will investigate that badge.
I've found another couple of pics that may help (as you can tell, I'm really in the dark here).
The first is a pic from the same sitting as the original post (though poorer quality), and the second is – possibly – the same man at another time.
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I don't think the third picture is the same man, similar yes, but look at the ear lobes. In pictures one and two the lobe continues down to join the jaw line, whereas in the third image the lobe is more pendulous. Even the passage of time wouldn't account for this change.
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Hmm, yes, I think you're right. The ears certainly speak against them being the same person.
Am I right to think that – on the first two photos – the regimental insignia is pinned to the folded-up flap of the hat?
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Yes, that's almost certainly a capbadge on the side. As can be seen from the second photograph, he doesn't have a capbadge on the front of his hat, which reinforces the idea that it's on the side.
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It will not be a badge but a cloth flash or patch which will designate his unit.
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Yes, that's almost certainly a capbadge on the side. As can be seen from the second photograph, he doesn't have a capbadge on the front of his hat, which reinforces the idea that it's on the side.
Right, thanks, Andy.
It will not be a badge but a cloth flash or patch which will designate his unit.
Understood. Thanks, alan. Trying to get my head around the terminology here: when you say "unit", would that be a regiment or something smaller. And also, if it's a "cloth flash or patch" (rather than a badge), would that help to narrow down the army he was part of?
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While I don't disagree with alan o that it could be a cloth badge, I wouldn't completely rule out a blackened metal capbadge. The Australians certainly wear metal badges that way. As for the British Army, if it is cloth I would expect it to be a regimental (yes, that's the same as 'unit' in this context) badge rather than a formation flash since he's already wearing the formation flash on his shoulder.
Incidentally, one of the reasons suggested for why cloth badges were preferred for jungle operations is that they didn't glint in the sunlight as a metal badge might. In jungle operations two opposing forces generally get much closer to each other compared to terrain like NorthWest Europe or North Africa where contact engagements tended to be at hundreds of metres, at least initially. Whereas movement and sounds in the jungle can have natural (animal) causes, a glint of sunlight on metal can only mean human activity.
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Usually it was a regimental or even a battalion pattern. There was even a difference between individual battalions of the same regiment.
It is far too large to be a cap badge.
It will not be a badge but a cloth flash or patch which will designate his unit.
Understood. Thanks, alan. Trying to get my head around the terminology here: when you say "unit", would that be a regiment or something smaller. And also, if it's a "cloth flash or patch" (rather than a badge), would that help to narrow down the army he was part of?
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It is not the same patch but this is a good clear picture of another unit wearing them on the side:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205205185
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I am by no means an expert, but Australians had the Rising Sun badge on their hats. Battalion colours were on their sleeve.
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I am by no means an expert, but Australians had the Rising Sun badge on their hats. Battalion colours were on their sleeve.
Quite correct but this is the British army rather than the Australians. Totally different.
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Thanks for your replies, Andy, alan and Nanna, all very interesting. (The jungle warfare info was fascinating, Andy.)
alan, you say that:
[...] this is the British army [...].
Now, that's a key piece of info, right there! Up until this point in the thread it's not been clear to me if there was a view as to which allied nation this guy was fighting for.
What makes you certain that he's British army, alan?
And more generally, can any of you recommend any further sources that I might use to try and identify him?
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[...] this is the British army [...].
Now, that's a key piece of info, right there! Up until this point in the thread it's not been clear to me if there was a view as to which allied nation this guy was fighting for.
What makes you certain that he's British army, alan?
And more generally, can any of you recommend any further sources that I might use to try and identify him?
I assume alan o is basing his statement on tonepad's discovery (post 3 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=876845.msg7487965#msg7487965)) that the shoulder flash was that of the 20th Indian Infantry Division. This Division was composed of British, Indian and Gurkha troops. I doubt if this man was serving with the Indian Army - it is possible he was attached but he's not an NCO so I suspect not - therefore he is most probably a member of one of the British Army units.
You can find the order of battle for the Division for the period 1944-45 here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Indian_Infantry_Division#Order_of_battle). The division was first formed in 1942, was transferred to 4th Corps in July 1943 and later took part in the Battle of Imphal and the Burma Campaign more generally. He would have been part of the 'Forgotten Army' (General Slim's Fourteenth Army (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Army_(United_Kingdom))).
Addendum. The orbat I linked to is incomplete as it doesn't shown shown most of the supporting troops such as RAOC and RASC, etc who would have been responsible for the logistic support of the fighting troops (which are the ones listed).
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That's great, Andy, thank you for the leads. There's a lot to dig into (almost all of it new to me), so I'm going to need some time to do some serious research. Thanks again for all your help. It's much appreciated!
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The cloth flash on the upper left arm looks a little like the RAF eagle. Look on any non-commissioned persons RAF uniform and you'll see the RAF eagle on the top of both sleeves. Don't know if Aus and NZ air forces have something similar.
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Medpat, I assume you mean the airman's badge
(http://rafweb.org/Uniform_Images/shoulder2.jpg)
If so, I can't agree. Firstly the RAF badge is on a rectangular background; secondly on the RAF badge the device (the eagle) is horizontal whereas in the OP's photo the device is more vertical, tending to diagonal top left to bottom right. Thirdly the RAF don't, or didn't, wear slouch hats, and finally Tonepad has already satisfactorily identified the badge as that of the 20th Indian Infantry Division, shown below.
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I've been away so have only just caught up on these last couple of posts. Andy, you say:
Tonepad has already satisfactorily identified the badge as that of the 20th Indian Infantry
Are you convinced? I keep staring at the pic in my original post, and while I do see a resemblance to the raised sword, I also see troubling differences. The badge in the OP isn't vertical, and it seems to have some sort of lobe on the top end.
If I get any confirmation on this from any other source Ill be sure to report back here with the info!
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Hi everyone,
It's been a while, but I've had something of a breakthrough identifying the shoulder badge in the photo at the beginning of this thread, and I thought I'd share the info here in case it's useful, or simply curious, to anyone else.
The shoulder badge is that of the 7th Indian Infantry Division.
I've managed to discover quite a bit more about the chap since I last posted (yesterday I received a copy of his service record from The National Archives at Kew). He was with the British Royal Artillery's 24 Light Anti-Aircraft/Anti-Tank Regiment (which was re-designated 24 Anti-Tank Regiment in September 1944 – https://ra39-45.co.uk/units/light-anti-aircraft-anti-tank-regiments/24-light-anti-aircraft-anti-tank-regiment-rata (https://ra39-45.co.uk/units/light-anti-aircraft-anti-tank-regiments/24-light-anti-aircraft-anti-tank-regiment-rata)), which means he was part of the Burma campaign.
There's still a great deal more I'd like to find out about him, but I'm much further down the road of un-ignorance than when I started this thread!
Thanks to all of you who set me off in the right direction.
:)
The badge in question is attached below (source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30071162 (https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30071162)):