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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: mothball on Sunday 17 September 23 21:08 BST (UK)
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This is my great grandfather, as you can see he was a general dealer but he has what was called Marine Store and above it is written in writing I have no idea what it could be, any suggestions? Many thanks.
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"Fishdealer" ? (Seems to be loosely compatible with Marine Stores).
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& fish dealer
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"Fishdealer" ? (Seems to be loosely compatible with Marine Stores).
No, there is a misconception about the old marine store dealers, it is becoming more apparent as people do their research they're finding these shops totally landlocked and are more likely to be a place where Roma/gypsy/Travellers would've settled. Indeed this man had a scrapyard as did his father and they basically sold what today we call a junk shop. So we might be looking at something to do with scrap or I originally thought it was saying the shop was where he lived but further looking it's not that. Thanks for reply.
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So you are asking us to read the handwriting but you have a preconception that it can't possibly say "fish dealer"? Perhaps if you give us the name and location we could check other sources.
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To help find it
www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7J5-W4P
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Yes the location is Pembroke, at the bottom end of where the castle is. There were many marine store dealers on the streets, most of whom were either Irish all foreigners such as my family, it was known as the rough end of town where the middle classes dare go at night. They had scrapyards, these shops and Dealt in metal as did my grandfather. In 1921 he was the licensee of the pub but he still was collecting metal as there is a newspaper cutting during WWI him to do is VSO service, but he was saying he was already collected metal at night. As far as I know Pembroke that Point in time was not of fishing Port. And as they had horse and carts I can't imagine they would travel anyway to buy fish, of course I may be wrong, but it would be the first and generations to dealing fish I'll try and attach a further close up
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To help find it
www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7J5-W4P
Yes that is the one they have missed transcribed it as well if you look at the word 'dealer' it is not written in the same way as it is written in the larger print, I apologise for my grammar and spelling I have significant dyslexia.
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I would believe if he had written furn dealer, as shorthand for furniture dealer which would make more sense as his son did have an antique shop at one point. But it is obvious to the word dealer is spelt differently. But it may not be in the letter i after F as there is no dot, but it could be a 'u'.?
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At the same time, my great-grandparents were fish-mongers/dealers in Pembrokeshire, hawking around town with a horse and cart. In Haverfordwest there were plenty of them, often in court for blocking the roads. My great-grandfather also had a lemonade maker that he took to the local fairs. His brother had a fish and chip shop. They would sell anything. When my great-grandfather died, my great grand-mother married again and then moved to Carmarthen where the whole family were fish-mongers. Even during WW2 fish was not rationed. My grand-father then sold fish around Laugharne.
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I can only see "Fish Dealer"
Carol
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I can only see "Fish Dealer"
Carol
Me too.
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The additional writing looks like an annotation either by the person collecting the form or at a later time when they were assessing all the occupations/some times they looked back at previuos censuses to check.
Fish dealer does look as though it is the phrase inserted and it is not unknown for inland towns to have fish dealers/mongers. Ideally suited to a person/shopkeeper who was travelling regularly to market towns or coastal towns. In those days the arrival of the fish dealer was a once a week treat as the fish would not keep for long without refrigeration.
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But it may not be in the letter i after F as there is no dot, but it could be a 'u'.?
I think the dot of the "i" is between the two "1"s of "11".
Looks like "fish dearler" (fish dealer) to me too.
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Can we not get fixated on fish?
Milford Haven across the Cleddau River was the main fishing port it is they who used to come over and see fish. My lot where Italian and sold ice cream on a horse and cart.
https://www.milfordfishdocks.com/about/history/
The original result was a Rag'n'Bone Man.
I re-visited link with somebody else asking about marine stores please read.
https://www.british-genealogy.com/forum/threads/69339-Marine-Store-dealer
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Can we not get fixated on fish?
You seem to be fixated on it not being fish!
I have considered whether the word might be iron. BUT the final letter looks more like h than n, and the first letter more like f than i.
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Thanks for that, did you read the link I sent? I found it quite interesting. The only reason I think this might be an error is there somebody suggested it might have been put in by the ennumerator for some reason. We have a lot of oral history, that has been passed down and the issue is they were only about six or seven male Devotes since 1841 living in Pembroke. At one time three Italian families had marine store dealer shops next door to each other. One family had 2 marine store dealers in the past. They were next door to each other. The reason I cannot accept this is it is totally out of sync with the family business and who they dealt with. Pembroke itself is well known for being for whatever reason a terrifically overpopulated rabbit community, and that is the main income for families for many years. I had a quick look at Kelly's directory and there was a fishmongers in Tenby, and later in Pembroke Dock, which makes sense as they were more fishing ports. Pembroke Castle has a Quay, and in the old days it was used for import export. Anyhow on Jacob's death certificate and said he was a farmer! Are we definitely know that's not true. Anyway thank you for all your help and I hope more people find Marine store dealers in their trees and then they will get more insight into the lifestyle of these people.
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In 2010 stanmapstone wrote a very good post here about marine store dealers (reply #4):
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=447336.0
reply #13 also notes the number of marine store dealers in various censuses.
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The people of Pembroke didn't survive on rabbits alone.
There were fish merchants and dealers in Pembroke in 1911. There was the Seear family and the Boby family, both in Main street, Pembroke.
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You may have already seen this newspaper item from 1918. Richard DEVOTE is described as a "licensed victualler and dealer" (he looks after the iron business while his wife looks after the licensed premises):
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4119307/4119310/18/%22richard%20devote%22
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Thank you so much Maddy, this is what I have discovered doing my own research in Pembrokeshire. There was an area behind Pembroke Castle called 'Catshole Quarry', which goes back centuries as a place where gypsies would live. The BBC and newspaper did an article on gypsies in Pembrokeshire, and they found this area was originally outside Pembroke Town walls, and 20% of the local population were found to have gypsy roots. This part of history seems to have been written out. However in the 19th century it seems to be settled in the rough end of Pembroke town, they weren't only Italian but they were also Irish and some English. They're newspaper cuttings about the Price family living at the quarry having disputes.
The presumption that the shops were chandlers or anything to do with boats and ships are mistaken. As fellow Rootschats have discovered. It is a shame that some of the historian's archives in Pembrokeshire they refer to the shops being to do with boats and ships. I think one reason is because they were very near Ropewalk Terrace, a very popular name in ports around the country. Originally it was plain ropewalk and because Pembroke is built on a long rectangular stone mound, the only place to make rope was outside the town walls in a field called Rope Walk.
So the family tradition was as described via your link, and they were as surprised as I was to discover the true meaning of the shops. My family certainly looked Italian very dark skinned, but I have a photo of one of the original Italians, and he does look very much non-European. It's early days so I don't know if he was genetically Roma, gypsy, or traveller, it's all a bit vague in my head.
But thanks for the link very interesting. Steven
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I agree with the several people who think it is meant to say & fish dealer/s
It appears to be written in the same hand as the words Marine Stores but in a different hand to the words General Dealer. Actually, I think it reads & fish dearles, the writer inadvertently putting the r in the wrong spot.
Peter
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It appears to be written in the same hand as the words Marine Stores but in a different hand to the words General Dealer.
Agree with that; and comparing it with the household list, it's not in the enumerator's hand.
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I agree with the several people who think it is meant to say & fish dealer/s
It appears to be written in the same hand as the words Marine Stores but in a different hand to the words General Dealer. Actually, I think it reads & fish dearles, the writer inadvertently putting the r in the wrong spot.
Peter
I'm afraid you haven't read the links which explains more fully the business of a marine store dealer. If you read the links
I found the following explanation of Marine Store Dealer: A person who buys and sells used cordage, bunting, rags, timber, metal, etc, sorts waste, repairs and mends sacks.
The idea that he was somehow selling fish is like saying and Mind Out was also making crochet doilies. It is totally out of character of the trade. We're going to have to disagree on this and I'm going to close the discussion because we have all been doing research long enough to know that the numerators and indeed even people themselves who didn't read and write have put allsorts of things on the census returns. I will still go by my suggestion that the initial word is if you are 'furn'. Shortfall furniture because his son had an antique shop briefly and also I've discovered on the 1923 Kelly senses so did one of the other Italian families. Therefore selling secondhand furniture would be more appropriate for this type of business. There are fish dealers in nearby Tenby and Milford Haven.