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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: toby_ax on Friday 08 September 23 23:25 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
I have a census record from my 2nd Great Grandfather. The family were poor and suffered many infant and child deaths. So much so that on pictures of them, I struggle to pick out which child is who, some remain undetermined. I am certain that there are more to discover considering the 100 year period of anonymity with the GRO index.
Anyways getting away from my original point.
On this census record in 1911. David Wade has filled in the census, himself, his wife Charlotte Wade (Nee Sugden), His son Arthur Wade, and his daughter Sarah Ann Wade.
But, there are crosses through the name Arthur, and written next to it are the words (Dead)
It looks to me as that Arthur Wade died Sep 1910 but I may be wrong. (Census is again 1911.)
I am wondering if David personally had to cross out his son's name and write the remark 'dead' as Arthur had passed before sending off the census or if this would have been done at the office the census was sent to.
This is purely for my own curiosity and just so I can know for certain, but the former would be far more upsetting.
At the bottom suggests 1 male, and 2 females, which would disregard Arthur, but I have no knowledge on census in this respect, and wether David would have filled this box out or if the 'census people ;D' would have. And if Arthur had have died before sending this census off, why is there no correction from 2 males, to 1 male. Edit: I have seen this says enumerator, but still doesn't answer my question as to wether David would have crossed Arthurs name out and simply but (Dead) of if the 'enumerator' would have done this.
See census below.
Many thanks for your time reading!
(https://i.imgur.com/2euEIvo.jpg)
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It's more likely he did it himself. He probably thought he had to list all children then realised it was living ones only
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The marriage was 1906 - these are the Wade/Sugden children listed on GRO online to end of 1911
John Sept qtr 1906 - died same qtr
Arthur - Dec qtr 1907 - died Sept qtr 1910
Esther Sept qtr 1908 - no death on freebmd or GRO online
Sarah Ann Sept qtr 1909
George Dec qtr 1911 - after census
There is another Wade/Sugden marriage in the North Bierley RD in 1912 ( Albert & Edith) so the 2 children b 1913 & 1915 could be theirs
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You have put 'I am certain that there are more to discover considering the 100 year period of anonymity with the GRO index.' What period of anonymity are you referring to, please?
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You have put 'I am certain that there are more to discover considering the 100 year period of anonymity with the GRO index.' What period of anonymity are you referring to, please?
I am unsure as to wether anonymity is the right word.
I am unable to confirm that any wades born in Shipley, West Yorkshire, are there's without mothers maiden names which are only avaliable after a 100 year period. Although birth certificates would be able to confirm for definite but I am currently unable to purchase all wade Birth certificates registered in North Bierley during this period.
Although Caroles post may undermine all I have thought.
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Mothers maiden names do not appear on freebmd until 1912 but are available free on GRO online
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
Registration is free unless you already have a login
All the children listed above were registered in the North Bierley RD as was the 1906 marriage
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There is another Wade/Sugden marriage in the North Bierley RD in 1912 ( Albert & Edith) so the 2 children b 1913 & 1915 could be theirs
Thank you for this, as I was completely unaware of this. Thank you!
I believe John is one of mine, as he is from before Albert and Edith marriage and Charlottes father was John, If it is the right child they also had a John in 1923 if I remember rightly, also called John but I may have to trace Albert and Edith's whereabouts due to this revelation to confirm further.
Arthur is mine.
And George and Sarah Ann too.
Esther is unknown to me as I had not encountered her birth on my search for the Wade's children, she definitely did not reach adulthood if it is one of my Wades.
Horace born 1915 and dying in 1917 is mine thanks to news articles to confirm, and luckily I have a picture of him!
edit: Oh and the 1913 one is mine too, he is my great grandfather ;D
Thanks for introducing me to this revelation! I better further investigate those I have on my tree. Those who reached adulthood are easy, but my Aunt recounts the numerous infant deaths the family had.
Very sad if David did have cross out his son's name. He had a very hard life from what I am aware of which was later brought on by the war.
Thanks again. Will Investigate.
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but are available free on GRO online
Hi Carole, I am aware, but I believe they also had children (who passed young) past 1923 (which I believe is when mothers maiden name stops appearing) which is what I was referring to. Thanks :)
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I think Carole W is probably right about why the dead child was entered and then crossed out. I've seen other people get tripped up by this form and make similar mistakes. I think that maybe the layout confused people a little.
I think it might be partly because the 1911 census was quite a step up from what the 1901 census and all previous censuses asked for. And how much experience did your average person in 1911 have of filling in a form? Probably didn't have to do it that often. In comparison, we seem to have to fill in forms on an almost daily basis, at least I do what with work commitments, school commitments etc etc.
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There are 7 Wade/Sugden births on freebmd from 1912 - 1930 - all North Bierley RD
Yours
George 1911
Wilfred 1913
Horace 1915
Ethel 1921 - see 1939 register
Others
Harry 1917
John 1923
Mary 1928
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Wilfred is mine, my great grandfather
Mary also, as she reached adulthood and many of my family met her.
John and harry I have no way to confirm other than birth certificates, or news articles will look into further. I had assumed both were mine before you introduced me to this marriage! I am going to check David's siblings and cousins to see if there is an Albert marrying an Edith. John again was Charlottes father and I had just assumed they had had a John passing in infancy, and had reused this name for their later son, but John is a common name ;D ;D ;D.
Thanks Carole.
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The 1939 entry for Albert & Edith has no children or redacted entries
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There was another Wade/ Sugden marriage in 1889
Look like John and Esther belong to them.
www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWJF-23R
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but are available free on GRO online
Hi Carole, I am aware, but I believe they also had children (who passed young) past 1923 (which I believe is when mothers maiden name stops appearing) which is what I was referring to. Thanks :)
Just to state, as I am still unclear as to what you believe, GRO may not show mmn after a certain date, but they are there on freebmd. I checked out a son born 1986, no mmn on GRO, showing on freebmd.
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I agree with CaroleW. He probably thought he had to name all children on the form, living or dead, and then realised his mistake. I wouldn't say that it supports the child having died between filling out and submitting the form, unless other evidence of the child's date of death supports that.
One of my ancestors did something similar in the 1911 census, listing three children, one of whom had died several years previously. But having either realised his mistake or having had it pointed out, ho compounded it further by crossing out and marking as deceased one of the two surviving children, leaving the deceased one still apparently alive.
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Info only, 1921 census
David
Charlotte
Sarah Ann
George
Wilfred
WADE, GEORGE SUGDEN
GRO Reference: 1911 D Quarter in NORTH BIERLEY Volume 09B Page 66
WADE, WILFRED SUGDEN
GRO Reference: 1913 S Quarter in NORTH BIERLEY Volume 09B Page 90
Possible son birth and death for David & Charlotte
WADE, HORACE SUGDEN
GRO Reference: 1915 M Quarter in NORTH BIERLEY Volume 09B Page 73
WADE, HORACE aged 2
GRO Reference: 1917 M Quarter in NORTH BIERLEY Volume 09B Page 94
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1921 Albert & Edith by themselves
SS
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Hi softly softly. See my reply 9 re births
Hi Comberton -good find. 1911 shows John & Esther with parents Jason & Rose Hannah Wade
From the second qtr 1911 mmn are shown on free bmd as well as GRO online
From 1924 GRO online entries do not show mmn but are still useful as they show all christian names in full whereas freebmd will often only have an initial for the second name
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You can search on the GRO from 1924-1934 and 1984 onwards if you fill in a known mothers maiden name.
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Hi softly softly. See my reply 9 re births
Missed that Carole, please accept apologies.
SS
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I had a similar case with one of mine in the 1911 census in rural Suffolk, she put down children who had left home or who had died, and those names were crossed out and only the ones living with her were kept. One of her sons died in 1906 aged 24 in an accident and she had put him down on the 1911 census but it was crossed out.
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Posted by CaroleW at reply 2
Birth 1907 and death 1910 Sept. qtr. Arthur Wade
from GRO indexes
Arthur WADE age 2
GRO Reference: 1910 S Quarter in NORTH BIERLEY Volume 09B Page 34
Is this Arthur Wade's burial?
19 Sep 1910 Windhill Cemetery, Shipley
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/97772893/arthur-wade - no age given
added image - there is also this Nov 1907 baptism in St Paul's Shipley for an Arthur Wade born 15th Oct 1907 Parents David & Mary
Edit to add
West Yorkshire, England, Electoral Registers, 1840-1962
David Wade Year 1909
Parliamentary Division Shipley
Place of Abode 20, Edward street
Reference Number SHIP:9/3
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Esther Sept qtr 1908 - no death on freebmd or GRO online
:-\ I wonder if Esther Wade born 1908 is the daughter of Jason Wade & Rose Hannah nee SUGDEN they married 1889 - 1911 census Esther b Farsley Yorkshire address 12 Charles Street Farsley Nr Leeds
and could this be her death entry ?
Esther Wade Age 4
Registration 1912 Leeds, Yorkshire West Riding Volume 9b Page 378
Esther’s younger sister Lily birth 1896 Reg North Bierley mn Sugden.
1901 census Jason, Rose, children Lily, William & Ernest Wade living with her father John Sugden - edit to add Rose Hannah Sugden's baptism 11 Oct 1868 father John mother Esther
Apologies Comberton I didn't see that you had posted a link regarding the above family on 1911 census ::)
For info. A family tree on family search
No confirmation of births you would need to verify info.
Earnest b1900 d1903
John b1906 d1906
Esther b1908 d1912
Parents
Jason WADE & Rose Hannah nee SUGDEN
(there’s a picture of Jason & Rose, their sons William & Frank and John’s parents Samuel & Elizabeth)
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/21RR-JGD
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Ah very interesting thank you all.
I am glad I had not stumbled upon Esther before.
Looks like I have John Wrong..
Stupid mistake on my part.
David and Charlotte married December 1906 and the John Wade in my tree was born July 1906, Possible, but unlikely it is David and Charlottes. I shall remove him thank you. Their first child must have been Arthur born October, which may explain why he put him on the census, as some of you have said, which all makes sense.
I had been told that there were more infant deaths in between Ethel born 1921 and Mary born 1928, but they may be mistaken.
Many thanks for your help.