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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Mercian7 on Friday 08 September 23 19:59 BST (UK)
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Hi
I have a marriage record 0f 3rd October 1703 for Burford Shropshire which reads:
Marryed Nichi Piede of Nash labda & Susan Shepher p.c.m.
Does anyone know what p.c.m. stands for ??
many thanks
John
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As nobody else has replied...
Can you transcribe it all please to give some context to possibilities & what do others on the page have?
What religion were they, who were witnesses?
My 1st thought was Parish ? ?
I'm curious where/what 'Nash labda' was/is
Annie
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Not much use, have you seen this.
At the bottom of left-hand page
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9B2-SSRQ-Q?i=509
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The link that Yokel provided shows the following:-
1703 Oct. 3. Richard Piede, of Nash, lab, & Susan Shepherd ... ... ... mar
No mention of p.c.m. on either of the two pages so Mercian needs to say where that came from.
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I'm curious where/what 'Nash labda' was/is
Nash is a place name. So I think probably it’s ‘….of Nash, lab(ourer)’
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I'm curious where/what 'Nash labda' was/is
Nash is a place name. So I think probably it’s ‘….of Nash, lab(ourer)’
It sure is, thanks to The Yokel for posting the link...
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9B2-SSRQ-Q?i=509
Annie
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P.c.m. Is on the actual parish register image.
Which I am trying to post.
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Actually, looking at the page, the same initials occur on a lot of entries, and some other initials on others. Could it just be the initials of the vicar or other person who took the service?
You can just see another one in the lower right corner of the clip I posted above.
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Not much use, have you seen this.
At the bottom of left-hand page
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9B2-SSRQ-Q?i=509
I don’t know why that has the name transcribed as Richard.
The Rs on the page are distinctive. This one is an N. I am sure.
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Not much use, have you seen this.
At the bottom of left-hand page
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9B2-SSRQ-Q?i=509
I don’t know why that has the name transcribed as Richard.
The Rs on the page are distinctive. This one is an N. I am sure.
I agree it is not Richard but perhaps Nichl or Michl
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Just an idea.
If I have read and interpreted this correctly, there was a Charles Mansfield, rector in 1695 who was buried in 1732. I don't know what ‘P’ would be though :-\
https://www.melocki.org.uk/salop/Burford.html
Scroll down to ‘Rectors of Burford, 2nd Portion’.
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Pastor maybe?
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Looking at the record on Findmypast it is a bit clearer.
I certainly think it is Nich(olas?) Piede of Nash labda and Susan Shepherd p(er) C. M(ansfield) at R(enfd?) Now Redford? ' Charles Mansfield was Portioner in Burford. See later pages in the records. I think labda is a reference to the fact that Burford was a Collegiate church. So Nich was in Nash Parish and the marriage recorded in Burford. There is a Robt. Piede on the previous page.
It would be worth looking for other references to the place, Charles seems remarkably informative!
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Yes, I thought of ‘per’ but wasn’t sure. Thanks
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Also if you look in 1704. Baptized John son of Nicholas Piede of Weston Par. And Susan his wife Feby. 18th p JB .
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I would imagine it stands for Parish of Cleobury Mortimer, which is a local parish.
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I would imagine it stands for Parish of Cleobury Mortimer, which is a local parish.
It would be good to see more of the entries on that page.
Why not just write Cleobury Mortimer if they came from there.
I still think it is the priest’s initials.
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Charles Mansfield is a bit more explicit a couple of years later. He writes p. C. Mansfield. Either that or the parish clerk does.
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Also if you look in 1704. Baptized John son of Nicholas Piede of Weston Par. And Susan his wife Feby. 18th p JB .
JB - James Bailey, 1695 - presumably on from there?
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heywood asked: "Why not just write Cleobury Mortimer if they came from there."
Because Cleobury Mortimer was a relatively populous parish and the need to refer to it arose frequently in the register, so a fair amount of wrist action was saved by abbreviating it to C.M.
(It was only the bride who came from there.)
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Thank you.
I understand about place/parish abbreviations but it would just read C M and not P C M, in that case. I thought perhaps Burford was her parish as the marriage took place there.
However, just my thoughts. I had best leave it there. ;)
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heywood, as I said earlier, the P stands for Parish. It seems usual enough to say Parish of Cleobury Mortimer.
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Thank you everyone. I am glad one of you managed to attach an image because when I tried it said it was too big a file. I think your conjectures that the abbreviation may refer to Susan's parish may have merit but I wonder why in Nicholas's case it was written out in full and not with her. I need to go through this register more fully I think as some of you have done.
Again thank you all. Rootschat nearly always solves such problems and it so wonderful to see the enthusiasm we all share in common.
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There is another marriage on the same page where the groom is from somewhere that looks like Bental and the bride is from Burford, and still we have P C M.
I am on the side of per Charles Mansfield
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Burford, March to May 1703
On one it says "P C M & Affid t"
So Affid t or Affid't was an abbreviation of Affidavit or sworn oath or similar document.
So that event probably had two sources - P C M & Affidavit.
If it posts you will also see P S R? and other letters, as well as P J B and P C M
It won't post.
To me, it seems to be the source/s of the information. A bit of a get-out ;) I know.
One line at/near the bottom has a name after Affidt.
I would also be interested to know if Bookbox has seen these as old abbreviations somewhere before?
Mark
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Coming a bit late to this ~
Marriage place is recorded as Burford - 3rd Portion (St Mary) on the transcription
A larger snip
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I think we agree on the place.
The letters, I think, are p C M - the ‘p’ being lower case which would fit with ‘per Charles Mansfield’.
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Yes - James Bagley and Charles Mansfield appear to sign off the registers each year. There's also ?? S Parry. One entry has Bagley as !st, Mansfield as 2nd and ?Parry as 3rd. Portioners
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Coming a bit late to this ~
Marriage place is recorded as Burford - 3rd Portion (St Mary) on the transcription
A larger snip
I think you have given us a clue as to what might be occurring, Gadget.
F m p also transcribes and mentions 3rd Portion.
The Burford Shropshire Register at the end of 1703, (pencil page numbering 186) says:-
J. Bayly 1d )
Charles Mauffield 2d ) Portions
Amb: Sparry 3d )
It seems the Parish was split into Portions and the events in the Register acknowledge who provided that information.
P C M means - Portion Charles Mauffield (the source).
See also end of 1700.
Mark
Added later: line should read
Charles Mansfield 2d ) Portioners
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e.g Mark
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I think that 'Portioner' refers to Tithes. In this case the Tithes would be devided into 3 portions.
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Thanks Gadget
Your image is what I was trying to transcribe, thanks.
If the poster refers to the end of 1699 it said 1700 a note about Burford Parish had Chapells, so the Register was made up of information from the Church and information from those responsible at the Chapels.
There were also Two Churchwardens too.
Mark
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So it seems to be sorted - that’s good news. :)
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Following up, Mark
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/SAL/Burford
The living is a rectory* in the diocese of Hereford, in three portions: the first, value with the perpetual curacies of Boraston and Nash, 1460; the second, value with the perpetual curacy of Whitton, 2286; and the third, value £335, all in the patronage of Lord Northwick
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Burford, Shropshire
Actually, looking at the page, the same initials occur on a lot of entries, and some other initials on others. Could it just be the initials of the vicar or other person ...
Just an idea.
If I have read and interpreted this correctly, there was a Charles Mansfield, rector in 1695 who was buried in 1732. I don't know what ‘P’ would be though :-\
https://www.melocki.org.uk/salop/Burford.html
Scroll down to ‘Rectors of Burford, 2nd Portion’.
...
Charles Mansfield was Portioner in Burford.
The Burford Shropshire Register at the end of 1703, (pencil page numbering 186) says:-
J. Bayly 1d )
*Charles Mauffield 2d ) Portion[er]s
Amb: Sparry 3d )
It seems the Parish was split into Portions and the events in the Register acknowledge who provided that information.
P C M means - Portion[er] Charles Mauffield * (the source).
See also end of 1700.
Mark
* Charles Mansfield
Thanks Gadget
Your image is what I was trying to transcribe, thanks.
If the poster refers to the end of 1699 it said 1700 a note about Burford Parish had Chapells, so the Register was made up of information from the Church and information from those responsible at the Chapels.
There were also Two Churchwardens too.
Mark
The Parish of Burford had a Church and "Chappels".
See attachment.
Following up, Mark
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/SAL/Burford
The living is a rectory* in the diocese of Hereford, in three portions: the first, value with the perpetual curacies of Boraston and Nash, 1460; the second, value with the perpetual curacy of Whitton, 2286; and the third, value £335, all in the patronage of Lord Northwick
Interesting find Gadget regarding Burford about Boraston, Nash and Whitton.
The Burford Register mentions the Chapels of Nash and Whitton. The Chapel of Burraston.
Yes I agree your image Reply #29 says they were Portioners.
Mark