RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: pocketslint on Wednesday 06 September 23 12:30 BST (UK)
-
Can anyone suggest how to proceed with finding details of a mother giving birth to an "illegitimate" child in Glasgow in 1916, where the name of the mother, and her occupation listed as "domestic servant", is the only information available. The address given is almost certainly not the mother's home address. Would a full copy of the child's birth certificate provide any further details? As this predates the Adoption Act (Scotland) of 1930, there are no formal records of the arrangements made for the child's upbringing as formal adoptions did not readily exist. The child died as an adult in 1979, and her son is looking to trace his line through the grandmother if at all possible. Thanks in advance, Pockets.
-
The information you see in the online registers is the same as an official birth certificate.
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/statutory-registers/births
Debra :)
-
Thanks Debra, that should save him some time and money. Without any idea of the mother's age, never mind DOB, I cannot see where to look next. I looked for the name Agnes Graham being born anywhere in Scotland being aged between 16 and 26 in 1916, and there are about 80 of them. Pockets
-
Have you done a DNA test?
DNA connection may be helpful for this :)
-
Hi Pockets
Have you checked who was living at the address on the 1915 Valuation Rolls on SP?
Was there any middle names used? Naming traditions in Scotland can be useful. Could the name have been Agnes's mother's name I wonder.
What happened to baby after her birth? Was she in care or fostered by a family?
Monica
-
Hi Pockets
I would try having a look for the named mother in any marriages after 1916 (maybe try 5 or 6 years worth) this should narrow down how many Agnes Graham's.
Is AG on the 1921 census?
I would also look on Electoral registers for Agnes. Remember no voting during the war. By 1928 we should be getting the younger women on the Er's.
I agree, you should try and find out more about the address given on the b/c. It may be a maternity home? Home of a relative? Bedsit etc. But it may offer up some further clues.
CD
-
I looked up the address, 135 Paisley Road West, on 1915/20 Val. Roll. There were 8 persons listed, at the tenement building, none of which was Graham.
-
Thanks guys, I will take all of that on board. The mother was fostered, and she was my partner's, brother's, mother. As you can imagine, the familial situation wasn't discussed much within the family. She lived out her life in Glasgow, she was married twice, had three children, and she died in 1979 in Glasgow.
I suspect that the address at 135 was a 'mothering' address. There are rumours that her mother got pregnant by the son of the family she was in service with, and talk of him not surviving the War. but that could just be too much time watching Downton Abbey.
-
Sorry, when I said "Mother" above, I meant the baby born 1916. It's starting to confuse even me. LOL.
-
I looked up the address, 135 Paisley Road West, on 1915/20 Val. Roll. There were 8 persons listed, at the tenement building, none of which was Graham.
Thanks Klou, can I ask you for the other surnames please? Just in case they ring a bell with someone.
Pockets.
-
The birth was registered as just Agnes Graham, but seemed to be changed to Grace Agnes Mac?????.
The names on 1915 roll were, Brown, Clark, Folley, MacKenzie (Mrs), MacLeod, MacTeague, Montgomerie, Neave.
-
Hi Pockets
I would try having a look for the named mother in any marriages after 1916 (maybe try 5 or 6 years worth) this should narrow down how many Agnes Graham's.
Is AG on the 1921 census?
I would also look on Electoral registers for Agnes. Remember no voting during the war. By 1928 we should be getting the younger women on the Er's.
I agree, you should try and find out more about the address given on the b/c. It may be a maternity home? Home of a relative? Bedsit etc. But it may offer up some further clues.
CD
Hi cal, thanks for that. The problem is that I don't have anything with which to cross reference Agnes Graham. The only connection is the child born Jan 1916, but she was fostered etc as was the understanding of the time before the Act of 1930.
I did try to get her birth by looking at AG's from 1890 to 1900. there are about 80 of them, but even if I look them up I have nothing with which to identify her with. I don't even know in what area she lived., theoretically, although highly unlikely, she might not even be Scots born.
-
The birth was registered as just Agnes Graham, but seemed to be changed to Grace Agnes Mac?????.
The names on 1915 roll were, Brown, Clark, Folley, MacKenzie (Mrs), MacLeod, MacTeague, Montgomerie, Neave.
Thanks klou, I will ask, but I am not hopeful. Stranger things as they say. Thanks again, Pockets.
-
From the Val. Roll, 1915/20, a Mrs Agnes Graham, had land in Paisley Road West.
-
From the Val. Roll, 1915/20, a Mrs Agnes Graham, had land in Paisley Road West.
It doesn't really fit with the mother's job title, "Domestic servant". I think Agnes Graham is quite a common name throughout Scotland at that time. Even if there was a link, how would one go about proving it? I'm beginning to think this is a lost cause. I could look through all 80, or so, of the births in Scotland for an Agnes Graham from 1890 to 1916, but even if the mother fits with this criteria I have nothing with which to verify who she is. I don't even know her age.
-
Mrs Agnes Graham was Agnes's mother. Agnes B, Graham, Servant, age 23, on 1921 census, working for The McConnell family, 80, Kirkcaldy Rd, Pollokshields.
Mrs Agnes Graham, age 68, living at 98, Kirkcaldy Rd with a relative, Mary E Graham, age 40
-
Mrs Agnes Graham was Agnes's mother. Agnes B, Graham, Servant, age 23, on 1921 census, working for The McConnell family, 80, Kirkcaldy Rd, Pollokshields.
Mrs Agnes Graham, age 68, living at 98, Kirkcaldy Rd with a relative, Mary E Graham, age 40
That looks amazing Klou, how do you get to these conclusions?
-
Why would she be "Mrs" if she wasn't married?
-
Cannot be certain that she is the correct one & that Agnes is her mother, but looks promising. It will take some investigating.
-
Cannot be certain that she is the correct one & that Agnes is her mother, but looks promising. It will take some investigating.
I get you Klou, we are looking at probabilities. Thanks for that, I will speak to the 'baby's' son to see if he can compliment anything further. The problem, as you will know, is the 'shame' around an illegitimate birth at the time, and the secrecy that comes out of it. Thanks again, that does look promising.
-
Why would she be "Mrs" if she wasn't married?
Mrs was frequently used as a respectful title for spinsters in service … have a look at Downton with Mrs Hughes and Mrs Patmore both spinsters in the first few series’ but still called Mrs
-
I would also suggest that DNA is the way to go in this situation.
Nesta
-
On the 1911 census, there is a Agnes B Graham, age 13, listed as the daughter of a George Whitten & his wife Maggie (nee Graham), age 31. Could Agnes, age 68 in 1921, be her grandmother?
-
I would also suggest that DNA is the way to go in this situation.
Nesta
Apparently he has already done a DNA test, but I have not seen the results. I cannot talk with him until tomorrow, thanks
-
On the 1911 census, there is a Agnes B Graham, age 13, listed as the daughter of a George Whitten & his wife Maggie (nee Graham), age 31. Could Agnes, age 68 in 1921, be her grandmother?
From memory the Pollokshields connection may prove promising.
-
A Hugh Brown Graham married a Maggie Minto, 1897. Daughter, Agnes Brown Graham, born 1898. Hugh died 1901, MMN Brown.
George Whitten married Maggie, 1903.
-
A Hugh Brown Graham married a Maggie Minto, 1897. Daughter, Agnes Brown Graham, born 1898. Hugh died 1901, MMN Brown.
George Whitten married Maggie, 1903.
I came across this on Scotland's people site using your proposed dates for the age of the mother in 1916 being 17-18. I could not miss the name 'Minto'.
GRAHAM
AGNES BROWN
MINTO
F
1898
654 / 157
RUTHERGLEN
-
This looks to be the death of the Agnes you have been discussing:
AGNES BROWN GRAHAM or LOGAN
Age 89
Mother's maiden name MINTO
1987
619 / 269
Glasgow, Park Circus
Too recent to view online and would need to be ordered.
Her marriage?
AGNES BROWN GRAHAME and JAMES LOGAN
1920
501 / 216
Old or West Kilpatrick
As Kloumann said early, all under investigation at this time ;)
Monica
-
Thanks Monica
-
The death of 'baby' Agnes Graham was as follows;
HAMILTON GRACE AGNES MAC 63 F 1979 611 / 546 GLASGOW, MARTHA ST
I know her son who is looking to identify his grandmother, and extended family, ie the 'mother' Agnes Graham who gave birth in 1916.
-
What was the Mac in her name short for?
-
The other possibility for Agnes B is Agnes Barrie Graham, b 1898, married Walter Barr Love, 1923, died 1943. They had 2 children, a boy & a girl, 1926 & 1930.
The Agnes B on the 1921 census in Kirkcaldy Rd was listed as single.
-
What was the Mac in her name short for?
GRAHAM GRACE AGNES MACKINNON ROBERT 1952 644 / 8 / 991 BLYTHSWOOD
She was married previously which was childless. I am waiting for confirmation of the name. She was also married for a third, and last time, to a Hamilton.
Her first husband was Macadam.
-
I think the only 'hard' piece of info I have seen for mother Agnes is her original signature on her daughter's birth registration. You/the family have this. A comparison of that signature against other registrations mother Agnes may have made can open doors (births and marriage(s)).
The only thing to take care of is that on some images on SP, the actual image shown can be a copy from the original register. Copies or originals were to be sent to the National Records of Scotland in Edinburgh (the remaining copy or original register was kept by the local registrar). You can tell when you are looking at a copy rather the original. On copies, the writing, including the signature(s), is made by the same hand! It will also normally have the word 'signed' on the entry to indicate that what you are looking at online is a copy.
The image on SP of the marriage of Agnes Brown Graham (daughter of Margaret Minto and Hugh Graham) for example, is a copy. So no way of knowing it there could be a match with her really.
Monica
-
that makes sense. i would never have thought of that, Thanks monica
-
The birth was registered as just Agnes Graham, but seemed to be changed to Grace Agnes Mac?????.
The names on 1915 roll were, Brown, Clark, Folley, MacKenzie (Mrs), MacLeod, MacTeague, Montgomerie, Neave.
The baby was 'fostered' at birth, therefore I presume that the new parents would have christened her as was their want, ie Grace. The "Mac" is most likely a shortened form of her first married name of Macadam.
Does anyone know if children born illegitimate at this time would customarily have had their name entered as that of the mother? As in this case Agnes Graham.
-
I take it there is definitely no stamp/annotation showing an RCE on the birth certificate in 1916? A Decree of Paternity or the change of name should have had an RCE and may give more clues
-
The baby was 'fostered' at birth, therefore I presume that the new parents would have christened her as was their want, ie Grace. The "Mac" is most likely a shortened form of her first married name of Macadam.
Does anyone know if children born illegitimate at this time would customarily have had their name entered as that of the mother? As in this case Agnes Graham.
Do you know the names of the 'new parents' who may have been relatives?
Did Agnes/Grace Agnes name a father on her MC?
I'm unsure what exactly you're asking re the name of an illegitimate child?
An illegitimate child could be named with whatever Christian name the mother chose.
The illegitimate child would be given the surname of the mother at the time whether she was single/married/separated/divorced/widowed.
I could elaborate on the above but no point in confusing the issue as it's not relevant at this time.
However, if the father of the illegitimate child was present at the Registering of the child & signed as being the father, the child would be given his surname.
The child would then be indexed with both parents' surnames at the time & if the mother had been previously married then the child would also be indexed under the mother's maiden name too.
I hope the above makes sense but as Agnes wasn't married & the father wasn't present at the registration then the child would automatically be given the mother's surname which would not be classed as a/her maiden name as she was never married.
Only married/previously married women have 'maiden' surnames.
Annie
-
Apparently he has already done a DNA test
It would be interesting to know what the 5 highest maternal & paternal matches cMs amounts are?
Where did he test & has he uploaded his results to all the free sites too for further matches & info?
Annie
-
There is a RCE stamp on the birth record with name in centre.
-
There is a RCE stamp on the birth record with name in centre.
I'm not sure what you mean as it's not something I've seen in the past...
Are you saying there's a name on the RCE Stamp?
Where is the RCE stamp as it's usually on the left side margin or thereabouts.
Is the 'name' not a reference to something written in a particular column on the BC which would give the column number?
Edit...What is stated on the RCE?
If the RCE isn't there to download you - (the person who downloaded the BC) can report the issue to SP (from the downloaded cert. on the SP site) who will email a copy.
The above happened to me many years ago.
Annie
-
I suspect that the address at 135 was a 'mothering' address. There are rumours that her mother got pregnant by the son of the family she was in service with, and talk of him not surviving the War.
It would be an idea to list all surnames at 135 Paisley Road West from the VRs in 1915, have a look at maternal matches, their trees, shared matches & their trees to see if any of those surnames from the VRs features a lot?
Surnames on the 1915 VRs...
Brown - Clark - MacKenzie - MacLeod - MacTeague - Montgomerie - Neave
The Proprietor was John Mair
It may also be worth looking closer to home to find out whether the family who fostered Agnes were related in any way?
What occupation did the foster father have & how far from Govan where Agnes was born did the foster parents live?
It's worth keeping in mind, although a lot of work has been done so far to trace Agnes' roots, it's all speculation as there's no solid proof of anything beyond the BC unfortunately.
That's where using DNA matching can help.
Annie
-
There is a RCE stamp on the birth record with name in centre.
See below for the RCE stamp. I think this RCE entry is likely due to the change of name by the adoptive family of baby Agnes. There is no link included for an image to the RCEs.
She married groom MacAdam in 1940 as Grace Agnes Graham. So, she was still using her mother's surname or did the family that took her was also named Graham?
Monica
-
If there is no link to the RCE, Scotland's People should be contacted via the "report an issue" button so that the person who has downloaded the image can see exactly what the change is.
-
The baby was 'fostered' at birth, therefore I presume that the new parents would have christened her as was their want, ie Grace. The "Mac" is most likely a shortened form of her first married name of Macadam.
I would tend to disagree on foster parents having any legal or any other right to have a foster child in their care which they "would have christened her as was their want, ie Grace"?
Annie