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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Essnell on Friday 01 September 23 02:23 BST (UK)
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Hi Everyone, finally have internet again after 7months of messing about. Yeah!
Now, I have a large pedigree document for part of my family which I am working through to verify details, as the original supplier suggested 30 yrs ago.
I have three people for whom there appear to be no birth records as per the years in the heading. There ought to be something. GRO draws a blank for each person in the year using dates either side and beyond the 2 yrs limit by altering the main date. FreeBMD also comes up with nothing.
All three I have a death record for, marriage for one, the other two, no. One died as a 10 yr old the other aged 36. All three DOD records point to the birth dates I have. I am trying to verify the DOB and parents.
Baptisms may help . Otherwise would there be parish records still at this time frame.
I know who their parents are supposed to be . Two were born before mum and dad married and the third, the year of the marriage.
Is it possible that these three children were never registered?
Cheers Essnell
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Hi Essnell again.
Just wondering if the Death Cert for the 10 yr old might have more info than that of an older married person. eg parents in place of marriage partner.
Also would Thanet, Romford and Middlesex all be in Essex. Thinking of contacting relevant Family History Group.
Thanks for any ideas.
Essnell.
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Romford is in Essex
Thanet is in Kent
Middlesex is a county not a town
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English Death Certificates don't contain any family information.
They will contain the name of the informant, who may (or may not) be family.
If you give us the names and dates, we can look for you.
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Just wondering if the Death Cert for the 10 yr old might have more info than that of an older married person. eg parents in place of marriage partner.
In the occupation column it should have the father's name and occupation
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Not all births in those years were registered - were there any earlier children whose births were registered, or only later ones? I have that a few times in my tree.
Have you checked if the two born before marriage were registered in the mother's name?
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Hi All who replied.
jonw65. Ha ! I was hoping for something like that.
This pedigree is big covers 24 pages of neat records in Family order . Problem back in the 1700 and 1800 they repeated names willy nilly. So one male and his brother had children with the same name etc. I have looked at these so many times and I keep coming back to my same conclusions as to where they all fit.
But these are the three whose DOB I am forced to estimate from the death recs.
1.James Arthur Mornement DoB 1858 DoD 1894 Gro Death Ref agrees with these dates. Aged36 yrs.
2. Robert Mornement DoB 1859 DoD 1869 Aged 10yrs. Gro Death agrees with these dates.
3. Emily Elizabeth Mary Mornement DoB 1860 Hounslow, Middlesex.
Married in England, Immigrated to Canada and died there in 1934. The death document has her single daughter as informant and Emily's parents - James Mornement and Elizabeth Taylor.
I have never seen this death cert before today. age 79 yrs and widowed. Age is 74
I tried to purchase the 10yr old's Death Certearlier today but ran into internet issues with the captcha thingy. My connection is too slow.
Okay, that may be of help Do you need Vol and Page nos etc?
Addit for Deidre. No and I never thought of that. the two boys were born before marriage and maybe even the girl. I shall try that. let you all know.
Cheers Essnell
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Hi all,
Just tried Deidre's suggestion but nothing there either.
Essnell.
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James Arthur’s death is in the deaths list of ‘The Thanet Advertiser’ of 1 September 1894.
Margate-Aug 26, at the Cottage Hospital, James Arthur Mornement, of St Paul’s Rd, aged 36
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There is a marriage in St Dunstan in the West 20 December 1860 between a James Mornement (father Robert Mack Mornement) and ELIZA Taylor (father Arthur Richard Taylor)
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There are these three
MONROE, JAMES ARTHUR
Mother's Maiden Surname: TAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1857 M Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 309
MUNROE, ROBERT HENRY
Mother's Maiden Surname: TAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1858 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 354
MONROE, EMILY ELIZABETH MARY
Mother's Maiden Surname: TAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1860 S Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 314
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Followed in the 1860's by some Mornement - Taylor births in Hackney
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Baptized 9 January 1859, South Hackney
James Arthur and Robert Henry
Parents James + Elizabeth Munro
abode George Street London Fields
Father Woolen Draper
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Hi Everyone and thanks.
You are as always amazing.
Deidre yes! I stumbled on that late yesterday. I wondered why I did not find it before this but it's James Arthur and confirms the DOB .. one to look for.
Hi rosie99. That marriage is also that of the parents. Eliza is Elizabeth Charlotte Taylor.
Now the next reply from Johnw65 throws a new light on everything plus another question.
Who is Monroe? What happened to James Monroe.
What happened that Eliza[Elizabeth] married James Mornement
I also found the Newspaper entry for the marriage of James and Elizabeth Mornement's Daughter Louisa.
It says she is the second daughter of James and Elizabeth Mornement. UMMMM
So in actual fact that's not true.
So I shall try to find out about James Monro(e)
Just thinking through this.
Emily married and eventually went to Canada as did her Daughter. I have found quite a lot about this Canada connection as I worked through this section.
Thank you all, You are amazing and I really appreciate your time and effort to help here.
Onward... Cheers Essnell
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Is it possible that James and Eliza(beth) Mornement and James and Eliza(beth) Monro (edited to remove Taylor 🙄) are the same couple 🤔
Do you have their marriage certificate?
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My feeling was that James Monroe and James Mornement were likely to be the same person.
But the children are not registered as Mornement until after that marriage in 1860 that Rosie posted.
It is interesting that James' father was Robert, the same name as the second Monroe son.
It is all a bit strange though.
James Monroe was a woollen dealer on those baptisms, and on the later ones James Mornement was described as a chemist & druggist and as a merchant.
Now that you can get the instant digital images of births for just £2.50 from the GRO website, it may be worth buying one or two. Perhaps the one for Emily in 1860, as it is close to both the marriage date and the census the following year. See if there is anything on it to tie things together.
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Quote from your last reply "Hi rosie99. That marriage is also that of the parents. Eliza is Elizabeth Charlotte Taylor. "
In actual fact she is actually Elizabeth Byzanta Taylor. Her father recorded as Arthur Taylor.
She was baptised 8th February 1837 St Dunstan, Stepney, Mile End Old Town, parents Arthur and Mary.
1841 census ref 697 30 4
Her and James deaths
MORNEMENT, ELIZABETH BYZANTA aged 80
GRO Reference: 1917 D Quarter in THANET Volume 02A Page 1252
MORNEMENT, JAMES aged 80
GRO Reference: 1899 D Quarter in THANET Volume 02A Page 654
In 1901 census with her married daughter
Piece 823
Folio 58
Page number 12
Household schedule number 79
Emily E M Gorringe 39 Head
Elizabeth B Monument 62 Mother
1911 census 4489 40
SS
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Info only:
Following the marriage of Emily Elizabeth Mary Mornement to Alfred William Gorringe in 1883 they had 2 children. Alfred died 1887.
Charles James Gorringe mq 1884 buried 23.8.1884
Emily Maud mq 1886--details known
SS
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Again info only: James Mornement was with his mother Jane in 1851 census at 9 Up Homerton Terrace, Hackney. James occupation Commercial Traveller. There is an article dated 8th August 1855 in The Morning Post re a James Mondement as a witness etc. He is a traveller for Messrs Rogers & Co.
Wondering what address of birth for James Arthur Monroe is in 1857, may link together.
SS
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Sorry further info. When Eliza/Elizabeth married James Mornement in 1860 she records her father as Arthur Richard Taylor occupation Surveyor.
In the 1841 census Elizabeth is with her sister Mary Jane Taylor aged 1
TAYLOR, MARY JANE mmn FERGUSON
GRO Reference: 1840 S Quarter in SAINT GEORGE (IN THE EAST) IN THE
Mary went on to marry John Lewis Pugh Pryce Morgan 6th May 1860 and records her father as Arthur Taylor occupation Surveyor
Witnesses to the marriage were Augustus Taylor, Elizabeth Taylor and Elizabeth Byzanta MONROE
SS
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Hi everyone once again,
Over night much more to consider…..
Deidre784 I wondered if they may be the same couple, at least getting the children registered. However possibly James Monro(e) needs looking for as an individual before this assumption can be considered.
Maybe Monroe was just a name used, like Smith at times.
Jonw65
It does seem strange somehow
It could all be coincidental.
The Chemist and druggist fits with the one Census where James [Arthur] is single and a Pupil to a chemist..
Re the instant digital images. I will try for those but aren’t hopeful of success. My internet is slow and identity stuff often fails as it times out.
I shall try also for the 1861 Census.
Sunday Sep 3. Have tried to get the Digital image for the three children No luck - still problem with this security thing. Can not do much till I get to a better connection tomorrow.
Softly Softly:
This is really tipping the world upside down - For more than just me.
So all I had for James Mornement’s wife is Elizabeth Charlotte Taylor born 1837 West London died 1917, Thanet, England. This info is on quite an old document – a whole family tree over 9 generations and about 30 or more years since I received it and some has not been checked my me until now. I was warned there could be mistakes. Yes there were lots. So another one discovered.
I wonder where the info on E C Taylor was located.
It's not all that big a difference. Just the middle name. I had nothing about her parents either way. Why? Too much else on the table.
Even so this Monroe part needs to be solved. What happened to James Monroe?
I do not have any of the records from the original compilation. Sadly.
Question: Has anyone seen Elizabeth’s marriage to James Monroe. Did James Mornement adopt the three children ?
Okay I shall keep looking too.
Thank you all again.....Essnell
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Hi jonw65,
At last I have those images of the birth entries Quite small but
: Emily Elizabeth Mary : Date 23 June 1860 registered by Mother Elizabeth Monroe formerly Taylor.
Sam address for place of birth and mother as Informant :
12 York Terrace Kingsland.
Father: Woollen Manufacturer.
: James Arthur : Date 27th January, 1857 place is same for where born and Mother's residence informant Mother
1 Frederick Place, Fox Lane. plus West Hackney for mother. Father's Ocup: Clerk at Lloyds.
I could also get the Robert Henry one, but that probably will not help at present.
Cheers Essnell
Hope this adds something to help.
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Hi again Everyone,
Softly Softly
I have tried to find a marriage for Elizabeth Byzanta Taylor to James Monroe. Between 1854 and 1860.
No result from FreeBMD for that pair - but one for James Monroe and Hannah Taylor in 1857.
I also looked for a death for James Monroe between 1854 and 1860.
One such person died in 1857.
GRO REF: 1857 D Quarter Vol 10B page 42 but this is in Newcastle Upon Tyne. He was 29.
Any ideas from here - anyone .
Thank you all again.
Essnell
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You have certainly been 'digging deeper' than I have been. I have assumed that the first three children were born 'pre-wedlock' to James Mornement and Elizabeth CB Taylor, and that Robert and Emily were twins. Monroe might well have been an assumed name - James' father(Robert dcd 1846) was a declared bankrupt, and James' younger brother (Mark Downing) had served 12 months for stealing a horse and chaise, before emigrating to America where he travelled under name variants. The Fox Lane address puzzles me, as the census records for three firstborn all point towards Hounslow as place of birth. Baptism records would help, but are proving difficult to find.
I follow your research with interest.
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Baptized 9 January 1859, South Hackney
James Arthur and Robert Henry
Parents James + Elizabeth Munro
abode George Street London Fields
Father Woolen Draper
I posted a double baptism of the two Munro(e) boys.
Clerk at Lloyds is a surprise, it's a bit out from the other occupations which seem to involve buying & selling / business in some kind of way.
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Just posting the 1861 for information
11, Brooksby Walk Homerton, Hackney
James Monument - Married - 39 occ Agent fancy dresses born Norfolk, England
Elizabeth 24 bn Middlesex
Jane Monument Mother Widow - 63 - Independant bn Norfolk
James Arthur - 4 bn Middlesex
Robert Henry - 2 bn Middlesex
Emily - 9 months bn Middlesex
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I think the Canada connection died out with the death of the unmarried daughter Emily Maud Gorringe in February 1946. I was sad to see this as I was hoping for a few Canadian cousins.
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Hi Everyone,
rosie99 thank you for the 1861 Information, I shall get a copy for my paper trail. My BIG DOC info had Homerton as place of birth but not much else.
jonw65 Yes I have that with all other addresses so far mentioned. None so far are the same so they moved about quite frequently.
I was puzzled by the Clerk at Lloyds for Occupation too. It doesn't seem to fit . Thus I am suspicious of the validity. However it is quite clear on the image . I have enlarged them to make sure of the text.
Eliza was the informant so it's what she told the register. The two boys were baptised just after Robert was born. The drapery and woollen trade all fit with other occupations ie Tailor within the family.
allanpeter.
Hi and welcome. yes I have been digging.. i like tying off loose ends and filling holes in the information.
Robert and Emily definitely aren't twins. I have a Birth Registration image for two of these three children. I shall get the other one shortly and come back.
What we really need are the Parish Baptism record Images of the entries by the Priests. Too often now we only get compiled indexes.
Sorry to disappoint you with Emily Maud Goringe . Yes a bit sad. and no cousins as far as I know at present.
I'll be back as long as the connection holds out.
Cheers Essnell
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Good Day everyone.
jonw65:
Opps .. i had a question but I see that the surname was "MUNROE" NOT MONROE as for the other two. so I shall go look.
allanpeter; from what I have Alfred Gorringe was a widower when he married Emily. i found a copy of the Marriage Licence application that he made. He also went to Canada so perhaps that might be helpful for cousins.
Once i have that image I will return.
Essnell
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Good Day everyone.
jonw65:
Opps .. i had a question but I see that the surname was "MUNROE" NOT MONROE as for the other two. so I shall go look.
allanpeter; from what I have Alfred Gorringe was a widower when he married Emily. i found a copy of the Marriage Licence application that he made. He also went to Canada so perhaps that might be helpful for cousins.
Once i have that image I will return.
Essnell
Alfred William Gorringe 1st marriage in 1868 image is on Anc* I don't like to question but what evidence do you have that he went to Canada.
SS
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hello Everyone, Finally back with some information.
First though I need to apologize to allanpeter and softly softly re Alfred William Gorringe. I thought he went with Emily but that seems to not have happened so I really do not know either way and all my documents have no reference to that. I have been trying to piece together the immigration to Canada and that seems to be complicated as Emily could have cone there and returned to England and then back to Canada. One document mentions a friend in California so I'm, still looking at this.
Now back to the three first children of James Monroe {?} and Elizabeth Taylor.
I have now got the birth record for Robert Henry Munroe :
DOB 15th November 1858
Place of birth : 14 George Street [this matches the address on the two boys Baptisms - jonw65]
Father: James MUNROE
Mother: Elizabeth Byzanter Munroe formerly Taylor.
Father Occupation: Woollen Manufacturer.
Informant is Elizabeth and she is at 14 George Street, South Hackney.
The registration was done on the 27th December 1858.
Emily was not born till the 25th June 1860 - so Robert and Emily were not twins.
I also got Elizabeth's Death Certificate 12th Dec. 1917. She was at 44 Hawley Square U.D.
Described as Widow of James Mornement, Clerk in Wool Warehouse.
Her Daughter Louisa Mornement [Turner] was the informant.
Okay i have the answer to my question with a few extras so thanks everyone for your assistance - really appreciate it.
:) Essnell
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Enjoyable post, glad answers were found by various RC's.
SS
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Umm Hello , well, I though I had got enough, but I was determined to find Elizabeths' father and Mother
I cannot find Arthur Richard Taylor. Would this be Eliza's Parents ----
Pallot's marriage reg. TAYLOR Richard 1827 == Mary Ann Gallant
DUNSTAN, STEPNEY
THEN THIS: Marriage by Banns, Richard Taylor and Mary Ann Gallant 25th Nov 1827.
Tower Hamlets, Stepney, St Dunstan, London, England.
It is signed by both Richard and Mary.
I also found Elizabeth's Baptism - born on the 8th February 1837. St Dunstan, Stepney, Mile End Old Town. Main Record is for: London, Docklands and East End Baptisms.
Richard was a Clerk in the Docks.
So How about that . Wonderful.
Thanks everyone!. Essnell
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Hi Rootschatters:
Over the last week I have been in contact with another person also researching this family further back.
We are both having problems with that research;
Would it be best to reopen this here or start afresh with a new thread?
it concerns Arthur Richard Taylor's parents.
Essnell