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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cumberland => Topic started by: honeybun on Wednesday 30 August 23 21:18 BST (UK)
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Is anyone researching this family please? I have Joseph Fleming born 1828 and brother Robert born 1834, both Cockermouth. I cannot get back to their father Robert, as the only information I have is from Joseph's marriage certificate to Frances Hodgson on 24/7/1856, which states that his father Robert is deceased. Robert (brother) was married after Joseph so the same certificate information will apply.
Also there are probably other children, but I haven't found them.
Are there are other ways I might find their father?
Honeybun
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Baptisms of children in All Saints Cockermouth to Robert and Mary Fleming:
Matthew Jackson Fleming – Oct 1822 [He married in 1845 to Dorothy Barrowscale]; died 1852.
Jackson Fleming – July 1827 [He married in 1868 to widow Ann Jordan, nee Brennan]
Joseph Fleming – 11 May 1834
Isaac Fleming – 11 May 1834 (died 1836)
Robert Fleming – 11 May 1834
1851 census for Robert and Mary plus son
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG2L-9SL
1841 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M73V-T89
I believe Robert's occupation here says "tanner journeyman"
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Be aware (to avoid confusion)– there is another Fleming family in St Bees – parents are Robert and Mary and they have children with similar names. That Robert Fleming is a farmer. I think the wife is Mary Moore (marriage 1815).
I don’t believe this is your family.
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I think this is possibly the marriage for your Robert and Mary:
Marriage Low Lorton Cumberland 1 Aug 1812
Robert FLEMING to Mary STABLER
Grooms abode – Loweswater
Brides abode – Lorton
Other children: -
Sarah Fleming baptism 12 Feb 1815 Brigham
John Fleming baptism 11 May 1817 Brigham.
Possibly a son named William bapt July 1819 in Low Lorton – father Robert (labourer) and mother Mary.
Abode - Littlethwaite
(see FreeReg)
I couldn’t find baptisms for these girls with the family in the census
Jane Fleming – born about 1815
Martha Fleming – born about 1825
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Death certificates to consider:
Death in S Quarter 1851 in COCKERMOUTH for Robert Fleming age 69 (Burial 31st July)
Death in M Quarter 1854 in COCKERMOUTH for Mary Fleming age 69 (Burial 22 January)
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Thank you so very much for all this information.
I came across the entry for Robert and Mary's marriage in Low Lorton on FreeReg, but I wasn't sure if it fitted in with the rest of their family tree because most of the Flemings I have found appear to be in Cockermouth, Brigham or Whitehaven and I didn't know if this place was in the same area. I don't know anything about Cumberland geography except for looking at a map!
I did get the death certificate of the Robert Fleming who died in 1851 but I don't think it is the same person - I'll go back and check the Census again. The woman who was in attendance at his death wasn't a relative but someone who lived a few doors down in the same street, and as his wife died after him I would have expected her to be present.
I was also really put off by the name "Jackson" cropping up in the family unless it was a family name/surname further back - I haven't come across it before in any of the families.
I'm now going to follow this line and hope it is useful. Many thanks once again.
Honeybun
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I did get the death certificate of the Robert Fleming who died in 1851 but I don't think it is the same person - I'll go back and check the Census again. The woman who was in attendance at his death wasn't a relative but someone who lived a few doors down in the same street, and as his wife died after him I would have expected her to be present.
Hi Honeybun, Can you post more information about the death certificate so I know what it says. The woman in attendance at his death may have been helping the family, and perhaps was literate, whereas his wife was not.
I was also really put off by the name "Jackson" cropping up in the family unless it was a family name/surname further back - I haven't come across it before in any of the families.
Yes, you definitely need to look at the family name "Jackson", as it will take you back to earlier generations.
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I didn't think about the literacy aspect of the informant on the death certificate - also might it have been a relative by marriage? Her name was Margaret Taylor and she lived a few doors away from the Flemings in Skinner Street (from the Census in 1841 and 1851). She was "in attendance" - so perhaps had helped to look after him?
I'll also look at the Jackson surname as you suggest.
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Given the address in Skinner Street, I think that is the correct death certificate.
Margaret Taylor may have had some nursing skills, or was just a helpful and caring neighbour.
I was looking at the Jackson Fleming name yesterday, and am still trying to make sense of it all, and follow various family lines. I will post some more information later.
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Given the address in Skinner Street, I think that is the correct death certificate.
Margaret Taylor may have had some nursing skills, or was just a helpful and caring neighbour.
I've just seen that Margaret Taylor's husband George, was also a leather tanner (a currier) so he may have worked along side Robert Fleming, or at least knew him through his work.
Robert’s widow may not have been well enough or able to walk to the registry office to record her husband’s death. They are a few reasons that someone else would do it on her account.
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I think the name “Jackson” in your Fleming family starts here:
Henry FLEMING (Yeoman of Ennerdale) marriage 15 Sep 1720 in Whitehaven to Catherine JACKSON
Amongst their offspring was a son named Robert FLEMING baptised in Ennerdale on 9 Sep 1726.
That Robert FLEMING b. 1726 (Yeoman of “Whins farm” Ennerdale) married Eleanor WILLIAMSON on 22 Sept 1750 in Ennerdale.
Whins farm on map: https://mapcarta.com/W497636718
Children of Robert FLEMING and Eleanor WILLIAMSON (baptisms I could find)
• Jackson FLEMING b. 1752 married Sarah SAUL in 1776 (– I think this is your direct line)
• Jane FLEMING b. 1754
• Sarah FLEMING b. 1756
• Mary FLEMING b. 1759
• Nicholas FLEMING b. 1761 [ farmer in St. Bees - married Elizabeth / Betty, and they are the parents of Robert Fleming b. 1790 who married Mary Moore and lived in St Bees]
• Robert FLEMING b. 1764
There is possibly a second marriage for Robert FLEMING in 1779 Dean to Mary IRVING – 2 more children: Martha 1784 and Jonas 1779.
Jackson FLEMING b. 1752 married 10 Nov 1776 to Sarah SAULE (banns read in Dean and Lamplugh)
Jackson was from Dean, a husbandman; Sarah was a spinster from Lamplugh (bapt 1754)
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5b3f151cf493fd64b0e939db/sarah-saul-jackson-fleming-marriage-cumberland-lamplugh-1776-11-10?locale=en
Children of Jackson FLEMING and Sarah SAULE (those with baptism records I could find)
• Eleanor Fleming b.1777 [ possibly married Peter Hannah 1800]
• Joseph Fleming b.1779 [ possibly married Jane Walton 1820 in Durham]
Your Robert Fleming - missing baptism fits here? [married Mary Stabler 1812]
• Henry Fleming b.1784 [ possibly married Mary Watson 1807]
• Mary Fleming b.1788 [ possibly married Joseph Simpson in 1814]
• Jane Fleming b.1790 [ possibly married William Telford in 1811]
• Hannah Fleming b.1793 [ possibly married John Atkinson 1813]
I suspect (but cannot prove) that your Robert belongs to this family, and was born about 1782 . There are gaps in the baptisms which makes me think he was born before (or perhaps after) Henry. Jackson named his first daughter after his mother Eleanor.
The first son Joseph was named after Sarah Saul’s father.
It would follow that the next son would be named Robert after Jackson’s father.
Additional info:
Jackson Fleming land tax 1798 for Parish of Ullock
Jackson Fleming died 31 Oct 1820 Ullock
Problems –
- We are missing a baptism for your Robert Fleming born about 1782, but there appear to be gaps in the records.
- The 1851 census has his place of birth as “Westray” – and I have no idea where that is in Cumberland. Was it the name of a house or farm - was it Westray farm near Cockermouth? Don’t know.
- Mostly I have seen only transcriptions of records – very frustrating. Viewing original records might yield more information / detail which would be useful.
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Just found this – I haven’t look at it in much detail.
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~ckfamilyhistory/genealogy/flemdespage.htm
Don’t assume it’s all correct unless you check documentation.
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Robert Fleming born 1726 died in 1786
Will of Robert Fleming, Yeoman of Ullock
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/76157134-8437-43fe-87aa-d0e6b3d40104
This is someone else's interpretation of the will .......
The will was made on 9th of November 1784 and was proved 18th of April 1786 the value was under three hundred pounds and the executor was Jackson Fleming.
Sons Nicholas and Joseph Fleming are to get fifty five pounds each, his son Jonah is to get thirty pounds and his daughter Sarah the wife of David Walker is to get forty pounds. His daughter Jane wife of Thomas Fearon if to get forty pounds. His daughter Catherine is to get one shilling and his other daughter Eleanor is to get fifty pounds. His other daughter Martha is to get five pounds and his grandson Robert Walker is to get five pounds and his grand-daughter Eleanor Fearon is to get five pounds and his grand-daughter Eleanor Fleming (daughter of Jackson Fleming) is to get five pounds.
To be paid to the several legatees who shall be of age at the end of twelve months after his decease without interest. To the other legatees at the age of 21 with interest from the time of his decease.
If any of his children die before 21 then their share will be equally divided amongst the others with the exception of Katherine and Martha who will have nothing.
His son Jackson Fleming is to have all residue after expenses and if any his money is subject to bad debts the legacies are to be reduced proportionately. If any of his children have not reached 21 at his decease, Jackson Fleming is to give security to John Sheperd and John Fleming, trustees for the payment for their respective legacies as above. If Jackson cannot do this then the amount of their legacies is to be paid to the trustees at the end of twelve months after this decease in trust for his children and other legatees under the age of 21.
Executors and trustees are to be:
His son Jackson Fleming and his brother-in-law John Shepherd (his late wife's, sisters's husband), and his brother John Fleming.
Nicholas Fleming signed in a clear cultivated hand.
[This will gives you names of children that I missed baptisms for in my above post. Also, poor Jackson must have received nothing or very little from his father's estate, after all the payments made to other family members. :( ]
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I can't believe that you have found so much information on this family for me. You really love doing research, thank you - I now have a lot more work to do to consolidate what you sent. I'm very much an amateur in family history research and wonder what websites you use?
Thank you again.
Honeybun
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Yes, I do enjoy research, but this family has not been easy, since finding records has been frustrating.
In piecing together records and information, I have been jumping between FamilySearch, FreeReg and Ancestry. Very few were images of original documents, and transcriptions don’t always give the most complete info.
I hope you can follow all that I have posted, and please come back and ask if you need further help.