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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: Lol-R on Wednesday 30 August 23 16:07 BST (UK)
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My dad has a fairly straight-forward family - the were all born and died in Liverpool, UK, except for a few who emigrated to Australia. My mums family is very complicated! She was born in Liverpool, UK in 1940 when her 2 older siblings were evacuated to Wales. Mums mum lived in the slums in Liverpool and her husband had died in 1938. He was the father of the two elder children. Mum was born in secret and then given away to a rich family in (possibly) Neston or Wirral. Mum had her own butler and maid with this family and her real mum visited her once or twice until the age of 4. When she turned 5 the people who were looking after her, and whom she referred to as Mummy and Daddy, got in touch with her biological mother and asked if they could formally adopt her before she became of school age. For some unknown reason they were told 'no' and she came and took my mum back to the slums with her. She was then introduced to her 13 year old brother and 11 year old sister as their little sister who they had known nothing about! I did both Ancestry and 23andme DNA tests and I received literally thousands of names. The ones on my dads side I recognised but there are literally hundreds of names which I haven't got a clue about on mums side. A lot of the names are foreign and I've inherited a strange mix of heritage, including Native American, Isian and Eastern European. My cousin says that she vaguely remembers my nan meeting a foreign guy during the war years but he wasnt in the military and he was stranded in this country until the was ended and he went back to his family. Its possible he knew nothing about my mum.
Can anyone advise please?
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Take it one step at a time.
Was a father named on your mother's birth certificate?
Ancestry will tell which matches are likely to be from your maternal or paternal side. Concentrate on your closest maternal matches and try to eliminate people with names that you know from her mother's family. That should leave you with possible relatives/ancestors from her father's family.
You then could search for the names on the 1939 register, births marriages & deaths in the area etc.. With Native American ancestry I wondered if her father was an American soldier but it seems that the US didn't start sending troop to the UK until December 1941. Liverpool was a busy port with many people passing through.
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There is no father on mums birth certificate. The nearest relatives I have on her side are 4th-6th cousins. I have emailed a few of them and the only reply I had was from a lady who is from a Portuguese American family but we can’t figure out how we are related. The surname De Burgo from Cape Verde keeps coming up and part of my breakdown is Cape Verde. I’ve no idea how to proceed
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Start with your potential American Portuguese origin grandfather
Colour code all your maternal matches who have ethnicity which is likely from him.
regardless of names in their trees
Have a colour for the Debungo name too
& A colour for all the people who are shared matches to your top match .
I did this for my cousin and we came.up.with.a potential common ancestor which I added..on a floating branch.until.we could join the dots
Good luck.
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Thanks, Ill concentrate on the Portugese American side and see where it gets me. My nan did give a few 'hints' but they turned out to be red herrings which doesn't help!
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It really helps if other family members get tested too
If your. Half maternal cousins or their children do a dna test it would also be revealing in which of your matches they do NOT share
Usually people recommend that oldest generation test but sometimes a younger person can have a higher match to one branch
For example my nephew has some matches that I don't he seems to have inherited proportionally more DNA from my mother's paternal grandfather and less from her maternal grandfather with different ethnicities.
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If you do not have a Birth Certificate for your Mother then that is where to start, I’d also obtain the Birth Certificates for all your Siblings and your Mother’s siblings.
I suggest that joining a local Family History Society will help you develop your Genealogy far quicker.
If you are over a certain age then additionally there is likely to be a U3A organisation pretty near to you and they to will have a Family History or Genealogy Group.
Both these will offer help and assistance.
There is only so much we can do here
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If your nearest match is 4th to 6th cousin, this would take you back about 5 generations. I have a 4th to 6th which I know the common ancestor is one of my 2nd great grandfathers, born 1819.
Cape Verdi was a Portuguese colony.
There were many Americans came over as volunteers to the UK to fight, particularly pilots in the RAF in 1940. It was illegal for them but the US Gov did pardon them in 1944.
From Wikipedia:-
"Before America entered World War II in December 1941, individual Americans volunteered to fight against the Axis powers in other nations' armed forces. Although under American law, it was illegal for United States citizens to join the armed forces of foreign nations, and in doing so, they lost their citizenship, many American volunteers changed their nationality to Canadian. However, Congress passed a blanket pardon in 1944.[12] American mercenary Colonel Charles Sweeny began recruiting American citizens to fight as a US volunteer detachment in the French Air Force, however France fell before this was implemented.[12] During the Battle of Britain, 11 American pilots flew in the Royal Air Force. Charles Sweeney's nephew, also named Charles, formed a Home Guard unit from American volunteers living in London."
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If your nearest match is 4th to 6th cousin, this would take you back about 5 generations. I have a 4th to 6th which I know the common ancestor is one of my 2nd great grandfathers, born 1819.
Cape Verdi was a Portuguese colony.
Ah, that makes sense then. I’m receiving matches and messages from people who are Portuguese American and who themselves have roots in Cape Verde. I have Cape Verde and Native America as my DNA matches.
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Although the US were not in the war in 1940, there were regular allied convoys across the Atlantic to UK ports including Liverpool from the US with much needed supplies. Your ancestor may have been a crew member.
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My mother was in a similar position to you 10 years ago
Her grandfather was unknown but of a specific ethnicity and origin and a few different surnames kept cropping up .even when we found his identity we didn't understand the DNA matches because they were all descended from his sisters and none of us had the common ancestors on our trees
When I eventually found the names of his parents we found them on one of her second cousins trees
It's important that you get the surname
De Burgo on your tree so that it flashes up for matches
I suggest you add your mother's father as first name unknown + surname ' from USA ' with an approximate birth date 1915
Then add his father with first name "maybe surname : DE BURGO
With birth location of cape Verde and a provisional date 1890
This means that any other matches who are doing name searches or location searches will find you .and shared surnames will appear when you look at their profiles if they have a closed but searchable tree
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My mother was in a similar position to you 10 years ago
Her grandfather was unknown but of a specific ethnicity and origin and a few different surnames kept cropping up .even when we found his identity we didn't understand the DNA matches because they were all descended from his sisters and none of us had the common ancestors on our trees
When I eventually found the names of his parents we found them on one of her second cousins trees
It's important that you get the surname
De Burgo on your tree so that it flashes up for matches
I suggest you add your mother's father as first name unknown + surname ' from USA ' with an approximate birth date 1915
Then add his father with first name "maybe surname : DE BURGO
With birth location of cape Verde and a provisional date 1890
This means that any other matches who are doing name searches or location searches will find you .and shared surnames will appear when you look at their profiles if they have a closed but searchable tree
Thank you so much for this information. I’d have never thought about doing something like that. I’m quite excited now and I’m going to get straight onto it. Xxx
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4th - 6th cousin level may be closer than you think because it is not taking into account generations removed
For example some of my 4th- 6th turned out to be grandchildren of a 2nd cousin so 2C2R
There are 100 years between my mothers greatgrandparents and my generation my cousin's.and siblings
One of the new relatives was suggested as a 5th - 8th cousin and only matches me by 19cm but she is actually a third cousin matches my cousin by 45cm.
She's 2 cousin once Removed to older generation my mother 49cm
And 3rdcousin 1R to my nephew the generation below 8cm
Her aunt matches me& my cousin's by amounts from 154-232cm we are 2C1R
And to my nephew the 2C1R by 57cm
So if you have suggestions of 4th - 6tn cousins factor in possibilty of different generational matches
Also half cousin descendants if the grandparents had second marriages or affairs
Our half 3rd cousin in this line also comes up as a 4th- 6th cousin suggestion
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In your case ethnicity will play a big part
Can I ask what are your percentages of native American. Portuguese.+ Indian .
When you look at your top 5 matches always check their ethnicity and shared matches...even those with no trees or closed trees .
And look at your shared matches with them .
For example if they have trees you can put the surnames of their 4 grandparents or 8 ggparents into the surname search option ( middle bar ) and see if you get other matches
Which you can colour code into clusters .
Can you work out which generation they are from the dates of birth of their grandparents...if grandparents are living ...so private check the private profile anyway as they may have listed siblings who are deceased or spouses surname
If they have no trees or closed trees but have used their surname on profile you can put that name in a search ...( Works better for males as women often use their married names )
Next do a location search and add colours to each match
So you will have some matches that are unknown for now but you can see at a glance if they have capeverde as location . Certain surnames .. Portuguese ethnicity.and shared matches to a group of people
Or if they have native American ethnicity but.no Portuguese and live in particular area of USA
Top matches will have lots of different colour circles and you can find crossovers
You might have a colour for particular professions .
Add a colour for Liverpool location as a control could your mother s maternal half siblings have grandchildren or great grandchildren who you can ask to do a test .?
.could the "American" have had any relatives in Liverpool who were already established there or who stayed or had children ..
Could he have had other children there who now have great.grandchildren they would be your half cousins.1 removed ( probably show up as 3rd-4th cousin matches )
you'd be lucky to find ones who have tested .
What are your highest cm amounts to people who connect to your mothers father ?.
It might take months or years for patterns to emerge .
But Clues may come from unexpected quarters .like shipping records or newspapers
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I have sent a private message because I found a ship chef with De BURGO surname who travelled from New York to London in tne1930s was born in Massachusetts but parents from Cape Verde.
You can check.his parentage + look for other DNA matches
It would be a lucky find if he is the actual birth father .
But it shows that given a surname we could find paper trails that link Liverpool to USA and Cape Verde
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I have sent a private message because I found a ship chef with De BURGO surname who travelled from New York to London in tne1930s was born in Massachusetts but parents from Cape Verde.
You can check.his parentage + look for other DNA matches
It would be a lucky find if he is the actual birth father .
But it shows that given a surname we could find paper trails that link Liverpool to USA and Cape Verde
Wow, thank you so much. This group have got me much further in my search than I have ever been and I’ve been searching for a few years now. Could I just ask though, I’ve had a few people from Massachusetts’s message me saying I have cone up on their list of matches as a distant cousin but neither of them are on any of my lists of matches. One of them actually has a rare medical condition which my mum and I both suffer from and which I’ve never mentioned, so I can’t imagine it’s a coincidence. Why would I show up on their lists (they done know each other) but I’m on there’s?
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Only explanation I can think of for not showing up as their matches is if they are linked to a spouse's tree so not immediately obvious that it's the same person .
Btw
if your maternal grandmother was widowed.k Moss school cleaner 1939 she is at 35 Lennox street on her own
Line above At 33 Lennox street is a married wIlloam.P JAMES b 1890
At no 37 is Thomas + Annie NEIL both married b 1918 + 1920 and if you look at the actual image ; line under her is no longer redacted
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4th - 6th cousin level may be closer than you think because it is not taking into account generations removed
Exactly the situation in my tree. I've had a mystery 2nd-3rd cousin match ever since my test results came back, the match has no tree, no profile information, nothing to indicate where/when they were born and hasn't responded to messages. The name is too common to make any assumptions.
A new match came up last week marked as a 4th-6th cousin, like most at that sort of level it's easy to overlook as being worthy of much investigation but as a shared match to the mystery match I decided to dig a little deeper. The new match is only 18 years old and is the grandchild of my mystery match. I'm glad I did follow up as the 18yo is much closer than the headline 4th-6th cousin suggestion. The real work is still ahead of us as it's linked to an NPE in my tree and potentially could blow their well documented tree apart too but it would have been so easy to miss what could be a very important match as the suggested relationships can be very misleading.
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I manage a lot of DNA accounts. Now and relatives of people I ve helped have often invited me as guest to view DNA so I can spot patterns
I've had the opposite
Someone who doesn't match who should be a 2nd cousin once removed
He's the only other descendant of African + Welsh grand parents
2 generations younger than my friend
But he doesn't match the cousin descended from Welsh grand sister
Or the same 4-5th Ghanain matches or the matches in USA
This descendant is from eldest daughter
I know that this couple fostered 2 of their younger children out to neighbours after a spate of baby deaths
- that in her later years the grandmother
Married a Portuguese man to give him legal status I'm wondering if the couple took I. Someone else's baby
Would that explain lack of matches
Or that they match thru a half sibling of Welsh grandma & an unconnected African person in his line
Hopefully when my friends aunt in her 80 s
Tests we will see clearer links to this match and the ghanains
It's likely that 1 of the aunt's did have a different father .. which wouldn't be that unusual in a sailing family
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Hi Lor-R, welcome to RC ;)
You may want to join this face book page & request a Search Angel...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01snb/
Wishing you luck.
Annie
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There are DNA tools that are available that can help, there is a but though, in that they need learning how to use them.
A chromosome browser map can give you clustered match’s who each share DNA with others and that can aid in where to give specific match’s research priority.
There are techniques to deal with DNA brick walls that we all learn.
I suggest spending time reading up on the technicalities of DNA would be time well spent.
A low cM match can be a false positive and coupled with pedigree breakdown this might not be what they seem.
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Just a gentle reminder to some of the posters here that Canadian soldiers were in the UK during WW2 well ahead of the Americans. A good number of them might have had Indigenous ancestors.
I am a bit upset that my father’s service in WW2 and that of many other Canadians is often ignored.
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Just a gentle reminder to some of the posters here that Canadian soldiers were in the UK during WW2 well ahead of the Americans. A good number of them might have had Indigenous ancestors.
I am a bit upset that my father’s service in WW2 and that of many other Canadians is often ignored.
Diana
I for one remember them and on the 1st July each year I especially remember my Grandfather who served in the Light Horse out of Lloydminster pre WW1 and was in the CEF in the war itself until a German bullet put paid to his fighting capabilities.
For without that piece of lead I would not be here.
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A recent (DNA) TV program highlighted a very very similar real life story about a young man’s journey looking for his heritage and a surprise unknown father. I won’t give away the outcome as it’s a lovely program. Tissues at the ready.
BBC3 - Stranger in the Family. It’s still on iPlayer and worth watching the approach he used.
Hopefully it will show you that it can be done!
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Just a gentle reminder to some of the posters here that Canadian soldiers were in the UK during WW2 well ahead of the Americans. A good number of them might have had Indigenous ancestors.
I am a bit upset that my father’s service in WW2 and that of many other Canadians is often ignored.
Diana
I for one remember them and on the 1st July each year I especially remember my Grandfather who served in the Light Horse out of Lloydminster pre WW1 and was in the CEF in the war itself until a German bullet put paid to his fighting capabilities.
For without that piece of lead I would not be here.
Grateful for your grandfather's service, Biggles.
I would not be here either if my father had not met my mother on Beachy Head during the war. He stole one of the English girls! However, he was English himself, but grew up in Canada.
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He wasn't Canadian, but a bullet wound to my grandfather's face and two shrapnel wounds to his head are how close I came to not being here today.
When I look back through my family lines, it's quite astounding how lucky I am to be here at all, and I guess it must be the same for most if not all of us alive today. Not just because of the Great War, but also ancestors who were the only child from their family who survived to adulthood and produced children, or died from complications of bearing a child whom without which I wouldn't be here also.
So many examples in my ancestry. It's quite thought provoking..
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He wasn't Canadian, but a bullet wound to my grandfather's face and two shrapnel wounds to his head are how close I came to not being here today.
When I look back through my family lines, it's quite astounding how lucky I am to be here at all, and I guess it must be the same for most if not all of us alive today. Not just because of the Great War, but also ancestors who were the only child from their family who survived to adulthood and produced children, or died from complications of bearing a child whom without which I wouldn't be here also.
So many examples in my ancestry. It's quite thought provoking..
It’s very thought provoking, how a simple decision can lead to meeting a future spouse or partner. Also how the decisions of world leaders to go to war have such a profound affect on people’s futures in very important ways that affect us for generations. Am sure many people alive today in the Western world are here due to events connected to the two world wars.
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Watched the BBC3 programme on iplayer. Very touching!
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Watched the BBC3 programme on iplayer. Very touching!
Yes it was, and a very similar search looking for a Portuguese/Guinea Bissau heritage.
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I would not be here if my grandmother refused to go to Australia to make a new a new life with my grandfather 9 he had lived there before the Great War met her back home in Wales during the war and returned in 1921 to marry her and return to Oz, but he decided to stay here with her and the rest is history.... 7 children, 13 grandchildren and too many great and great great children to count later.....
Nesta
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"born in Massachusetts but parents from Cape Verde."
The largest concentration of Portuguese immigrants in the United States is in Southeastern Massachusetts - the New Bedford and Fall River area. A lot of them were fishermen or sailors. That would be good area to concentrate on.
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https://ldsgenealogy.com/MA/New-Bedford.htm
https://newenglandhistoricalsociety.com/how-portuguese-immigrants-came-to-new-england/
https://www.whalingmuseum.org/learn/research-topics/regional-history/cultural-communities/
https://portuguese-american-journal.com/portuguese-americans-are-organized-and-well-connected/
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Watched the BBC3 programme on iplayer. Very touching!
Yes it was, and a very similar search looking for a Portuguese/Guinea Bissau heritage.
Quite emotional all round with a fantastic outcome.
A great lesson on how DNA works & what info. can be gleaned from very little & where it can lead.
Not to mention the various races involved.
The families were lovely & Carlos was such a lovely man.
DNA helped both men find their origins.
Annie
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I'm going to watch that program now .
Lol R
Have you.made any progress with colour coding and clustering your matches
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All my Grandparents were from diverse towns, that is Yorkshire, Cheshire, Lancashire and Monmouth.
Only because of the effects of WW1 were brought both pairs together, the rest is history.
Alas I have never been able to find Paternal GF’s war record yet my naturalised Canadian Maternal GF I have his full service record, it does make chilling reading as does seeing the degeneration in him in photographs we have of him at the start of the War and during the latter stages of service before his medical discharge