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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: m23to53 on Tuesday 29 August 23 11:47 BST (UK)
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A group of us have been researching Arthur Haversleigh Thoby Prinsep, 1862-1938, a character who used various names during his time in New Zealand and Australia for boxing, writing, avoiding the law because of bigamy, acting etc. His life would make a good film.
But though finding info about him, his siblings remain unknown. Nena Prinsep was born in Calcutta in 1868 and baptised that year (though her brothers born earlier were not baptised until 1875 in England), the sum of records found for her. She may be the Lilian Prinsep, a young painter visiting Guernsey in 1884 according to the island's paper 'The Star' (16/2/1884) but no evidence found. Her brother Ernest Charles is actually better recorded, later living and dying in England, though a birth date of 1867 can not be proven. And there seems no evidence that Henry Prinsep, supposedly born 1865, actually existed - not helped by the birth in 1863 in Lucknow of a Henry Stewart Prinsep to different Prinsep parents.
Nena's birth is in the Findmypast India births, but none of her brothers, including Arthur, are.
Is it possible to find what happened to Nena, or the births of her brothers.
I have tried to keep this short otherwise I could go on for pages! I do have some notes on Arthur if you are interested.
Regards
John
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There are these 2 Marriages on FIBIS.
BENGAL
Marriage Year 1883
Husband First Names Arthur J. H.
Husband Surname Prinsep
Wife First Names Adeline Mary
Wife Surname Hinder
Marriage Year 1887
Husband First Names Henry T.
Husband Surname Prinsep
Wife First Names Liela L.
Wife Surname Skeen
FindMyPast seems to have the images.
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Hi Nena -- do you have the rather entertaining 2011 paper by John Malings about Arthur Prinsep? If not I could send. He was indeed an utter rogue! Would be most interested in your group trying to uncover more about him.
Tim Lindholm
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The 1887 marriage is that of Arthur's father, Henry Thoby Prinsep, not the supposed brother. We have now seen his mother's will which intimates that she was never married to Henry Thoby Prinsep, his father, but only to Charles Benjamin Roe whom she had married in 1855. A family tree says he was 1827-1900, but a search has produced no records to prove this - and not helping is his father's surname was Rowe according to a wedding record.
What a tangled web this family weaved.
John
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She may be the Lilian Prinsep, a young painter visiting Guernsey in 1884 according to the island's paper 'The Star' (16/2/1884)
Here is mention of a Lilian Prinsep in Geneva.
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01smc/
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Hi,
Nena Lilian had a private baptism on the 11th August 1898, sadly I think it was because she was dying. The baptism gives her parent's as Henry Toby PRINCEP and Grace ROE. There is a death/burial record at FindMyPast for a Nina LILIAN,
Calcutta
DOD: 12 Aug 1868
Nina LILIAN
Age: 4M 28D
Illegitimate daughter of Grace ROE
Burial date: 12 Aug 1868
Cause of death: Diarrhoea
So she lost her name as well as her life. Poor little thing.
Regards,
Daisy
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Is it possible that this is Henry PRISEP born 1865?
Baptism
Calcutta, St James, Bengal
DOB: 20 Nov 1865
Baptism: 03 May 1866
Henry
son of Grace ROWE
Burial
Calcutta
DOD: 03 May 1866
Henry ROWE
Age: 5M 14D
Illegitimate son of Grace ROWE
Burial date: 04 May 1866
Cause of death: Cholera
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Thank you Daisy. That’s very sad re Nina and looks very likely re Henry.
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I have now seen Grace's will in which she says she is married to George Roe/Rowe, not Prinsep. And we have found another infantile death of a child of Grace Phebe Roe, by a R. G. Evans !
Everything is uncertain as no birth record found for Arthur or Ernest, though seems they exist for others if that Nina Lilian and Henry were their siblings.
Seems Grace, the mother, was free and loose with her male friends.
Regards
John
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Hello Everyone,
I think I may be able to she some light on Grace Roe - Her name was Grace Phoebe Sageman. She was married to my great-great grandfather in 1855 in Calcutta. He was George Benjamin Roe. They had one son, Melville George Roe as far I know. I think they must have become estranged as George Benjamin Roe " married" his second wife, Lavinia around 1865ish (if they did!). Anyway, there was a High Court Case in 1903 as George Benjamin Roe died intestate and various siblings and one "cousin" went to the high court to see who would receive monies from his estate in Ireland etc. They had to prove that they were legitimate and only Melville could prove that his father and mother were married, hence he received the money from George Benjamin Roe's estate. There was apparently a separation order between George and Grace but nothing further as far as I know. Grace's father was a writer for the East India Company. I have a copy of their marriage certificate. I always wondered what happened to Grace - maybe she was a grass widow??
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Hi,
I have also been researching Arthur Thoby Haversleigh Prinsep, as he has was important figure in early Australian soccer.
Thanks for the information regarding Grace Roe and her husband. From what I have seen George had several "wives".
Grace not divorcing would explain why she never married Henry Thoby Prinsep, and thus never appears on the Prinsep family tree.
As a by-the-by Ernest Charles Prinsep played soccer with Arthur Conan Doyle in Portsmouth. It appears Ernest went to Newark Magnus school in Nottinghamshire, and Arthur presumably did as well as he was in Nottinghamshire as Ernest was finishing his schooling, and was associationed with Newark FC. Sadly the Newark Magnus records were lost in a move of site last century.
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Hi, Enjoying the discussion about the Prinsep's
I was wondering where can I find Grace's will?
I've done a lot of research into Arthur, as he has certain importance in Australia.
George Roe had a string of children with several teenaged mother, of which Grace was the first.
Grace may not have married Henry, but it appears a long-lasting committed relationship on paper. Henry didn't marry until after Grace died. He could have simply had an official marriage alongside Grace, but he didn't. Their unmarried status is why Arthur and his brothers never appear on Prinsep family trees. And probably why he was likely was schooled in Nottinghamshire (where Ernest went) and not somewhere fancier.
Ernest played soccer for Portsmouth (original club, not the current one) with Arthur Conan Doyle.
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Hi,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
The images of Grace's will are available using FindMyPast, they are in the "British India Office Wills & Probate" collection.
Regards,
Daisy