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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Gloucestershire => Topic started by: Mimble on Friday 25 August 23 17:08 BST (UK)
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Hello, can anyone explain where the parish of Westminster Bath is? Samuel Morgan was married in the parish of Chipping Sodbury, but is named as of the parish of Westminster Bath (see picture). Can anyone explain?
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I can't answer the question, but I went to Bath Ancestors in search of inspiration and discovered a Samuel son of Joseph Morgan of Chipping Sodbury who was made an apprentice in Bath in 1750. More details:
http://bathancestors.org.uk/index.php
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Looking at the transcript, they were married by Licence. So I checked on the Forest of Dean Family History Trust* which has Gloucestershire Marriage Allegations 1637-1837 and Marriage Bonds 1730-1823
Free: Just have to register to have access to the records.
https://forest-of-dean.net
(Gloucestershire Family History Society - have taken over responsibility for maintaining the site).
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Two records - one being the Bond
10 April 1762
Samuel MORGAN - occupation: Tyler & Plasterer,
residence: Chipping Sodbury
Sarah HARRIS - residence: Chipping Sodbury
He Marks
Witness 1 : the mark of Nathaniel PYRK of Wickwar - tyler and plasterer
Witness 2: John Walter
Sealed and Delivered in the presence of : W Hughes
Event type: Marriage Bond
Memoranda: The groom and Nathaniel PYRK are bound to the sum of £200 to marry at Chipping Sodbury
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The other record is the Licence - which gives ages
10 April 1762
Samuel MORGAN - aged 25, Bachelor: Occupation: Tyler & Plasterer, residence: Chipping Sodbury
Sarah HARRIS, over 21, Spinster, residence: Chipping Sodbury
He marks
Marriage Allegation: To marry at Chipping Sodbury, Licence issued by W Hughes
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Which confirms the Contributors link.
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As it Seems, Samuel MORGAN was apprenticed to Giles COLLINS....
Went back to the Forest of Dean Licences and found
27 December 1722
Giles COLLINS of Bath
married
Mary DEEK of Chipping Sodbury
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Samuel's father was: Joseph MORGAN of Chipping Sodbury and Samuel MORGAN was born C1737.
by Licence
Submitted by Mr Shellard: 30 July 1723
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If you use Google Book, and search for ......Westminster, Bath
There are old articles - which mentions
'in the Diocese of Westminster, Bath and Wells'
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Is "Bath" meant to stand for Bachelor? - in its funny way.
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I am puzzled?
The diocese of Bath & Wells has had different names over the years:
909 - Diocese of Wells
1088 - Diocese of Bath
1197 - Diocese of Glastonbury, also known as the Diocese of Bath and Glastonbury
1219 - Diocese of Bath
1245 - Diocese of Bath and Wells
I cannot find any reference to a parish of Westminster?
Capetown, your reference in your last post (from Calendar of the Patent Rolls) shows:
Oct 16 Westminster Presentation of Richard Byndegle, vicar of Tekenham, in the Diocese of Bath and Wells . . . . . .
"Oct 16 Westminster" in one column; remainder of the text in a second column!
(I believe "Tekenham to be Tickenham, just a few miles from my home town!)
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deleted
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No Bath is not a version of bachelor.
Bath the town is in Somerset as is Wells.
Bit of googling;
The Diocese of Bath and Wells is a diocese in the Church of England Province of Canterbury in England. The diocese covers the county of Somerset and a small area of Dorset. The Episcopal seat of the Bishop of Bath and Wells is located in the Cathedral Church of Saint Andrew in the city of Wells in Somerset.
As found by other it appears Samuel was apprenticed in Bath to Giles Collins.
Trish :)
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Looking again at the original, I'm not sure the second letter in Westminster is the letter e compared, for example the e at the end of Robt Coates name name and or the e in Licence etc
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I suspect that "Westminster" is a mistranscription (or mishearing) of one of the Bath parishes. Weston St John perhaps.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ecclesiastical_parishes_in_the_Diocese_of_Bath_and_Wells
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Another possibility, is Worminster, Shepton Mallet about 21 miles away.
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St John the Baptist, Chipping Sodbury, Gloucestershire;
Burials;
HESTER Morgan 15 May 1766
JOSEPH Morgan Snr* 19 Dec 1786
JOSEPH Morgan 06 Jan 1814 age 75 (c 1739) (possibly Joseph Jnr?)
A Tree has Samuel's Parents as JOSEPH/HESTER so have added a Burial for a Hester also.
All above on FreeREG
Also only 1 child bapt Chipping on there to Joseph/Hester THOMAS 20 Feb. 1730
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How can trish1120 be so sure that "Bath" doesn't stand for Bachelor?
It was sometimes spelt "Batchelor" in registers.
Moreover, the word "Bachelor" appears in the marriage allegation.
"Westminster Bath" as a parish sounds like nonsense.
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Chipping Sodbury is close enough to Bath for most people there to have had at least a basic knowledge of the place and its constituent parishes, which does make it all rather odd. And the marriage licence documents quoted in reply #2 say he was of Chipping Sodbury anyway.
Another possibility, is Worminster, Shepton Mallet about 21 miles away.
I think it's extremely unlikely that anyone would connect Worminster with Bath. But this was the period when Bath was an ultra-fashionable place to go, and growing rapidly: I wonder if one of the new developments was known for a time as Westminster, but the name then fell out of favour. After all, there are plenty of areas of Bath which share a name with parts of London or members of the nobility.
(EDIT: I've not found any evidence for this - see reply #21 below)
How can trish1120 be so sure that "Bath" doesn't stand for Bachelor?
It was sometimes spelt "Batchelor" in registers.
Moreover, the word "Bachelor" appears in the marriage allegation.
None of the other entries in the clip from the register have a marital status, so it seems rather unlikely from that point of view. You'd need to show that the minister/clerk did sometimes add it, and that he spelled it with a 't'. Moreover, there is evidence to connect this man to Bath, so that does on the face of it seem more likely.
"Westminster Bath" as a parish sounds like nonsense.
That bit I agree with - except as I've written above, it might have meant something then.
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Arthur, most of the other parties on the image are "of this parish", so this is one of the few persons from elsewhere, which might explain why Bachelor has been recorded for him but not for others, that is, because they didn't know him.
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I think this is getting a bit far-fetched. Remember that - if everything else that has been found is correct - this man originally came from Chipping Sodbury, and the licence said he was from there rather than Bath.
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Not as far-fetched as the parish of Westminster Bath, though.
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Not as far-fetched as the parish of Westminster Bath, though.
...which presumably meant something to the person who wrote it. Our task is to find out what.
Is there anything to connect Samuel Morgan to Westminster, Middlesex? Did he sometimes live and work there, perhaps, so it's really Westminster and Bath?
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Searching again on Bath Ancestors, this time for Westminster (as any text), I found a Mary Morgan of St James, Westminster, aged 24. She is in the Mineral Water Hospital case book dated 21 June 1753, but died two months later.
That age would make her more or less the same age as Samuel. Coincidence - or significant?
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Another theory: "Westminster Bath" could be a mistranscription of Westerleigh (less than 3 miles away). Perhaps the parish clerk or the vicar could not read their own, or the other's, writing.
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... this was the period when Bath was an ultra-fashionable place to go, and growing rapidly: I wonder if one of the new developments was known for a time as Westminster, but the name then fell out of favour. After all, there are plenty of areas of Bath which share a name with parts of London or members of the nobility.
I've now looked at Bath Ancestors, the Somerset Archives catalogue and Genuki, and haven't found any evidence for this.
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I am Somerset born and bred.
The only parishes in Bath I am aware of are:
St Michael
St James
St Peter and St Paul
Closest linguistically would be:
Weston,
Upper Weston,
Lower Weston,
Weston Park
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Quote by Watson;
How can trish1120 be so sure that "Bath" doesn't stand for Bachelor?
Experience and that none of the others on the page have marital status noted.
Trish :)
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trish1120, your experience is important, but it is not evidence. Facts are better. The absence of marital status of others on the page is not an infallible guide, and "of the parish of Westminster Bachelor" would at least make some sense, and, at this stage, I don't think it should be ruled out. The marriage allegation said bachelor.
It 's not as if there is a clearcut alternative solution.
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I'm sure I've heard of Bath Minster although Mr Google isn't very helpful in this respect. Whilst definitely written as a single word, might Westminster be West Minster, as in the area to the west of the Minster (Abbey)?
Jane :-)
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The Abbey church of St Peter and St Paul is commonly referred to as Bath Abbey; I've never heard of it described as a Minster.
Steve
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trish1120, your experience is important, but it is not evidence. Facts are better. The absence of marital status of others on the page is not an infallible guide, and "of the parish of Westminster Bachelor" would at least make some sense, and, at this stage, I don't think it should be ruled out. The marriage allegation said bachelor.
It 's not as if there is a clearcut alternative solution.
Presumably the image showing on the first post is the Bishops transcript.
The marriage image states
Banns of marriage between .......
Samuel Morgan of the parish of Westminster Bath and Sarah Harris of this Parish
were married in this church by Licence.
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Snip from the original register as mentioned by Rosie: