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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: alan w jones on Monday 14 August 23 20:02 BST (UK)
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Hello , my late grandfather was discharged from army on 28-6-1921 and gave his address as 13 Berwick St , Manchester , I wondered if I could see any evidence of that please ? Any help much appreciated
Regards
Alan
His name was William Jones
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1921 census was taken on June 19 1921 .
Therefore he would not appear at the address. Using the free index, there would appear to a half-dozen households at that address.
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Thank you Pauline, that's a shame, I guess he might have just turned up there later . Do you know if Absent Voters Lists are available online for Manchester ?
Regards
Alan
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1921 shows Berwick Street, Ancoats and Berwick Street, South Manchester - Chorlton.
Did he have family to return to?
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Thanks , I don't honestly know if he had any living relatives , I know on his marriage cert in 1925 he declares his father Frederick as deceased .
Regards
Alan
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Perhaps it was a lodging house or boarding house.
Have you found him in censuses before 1921? Was he from the Manchester area?
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Just in case it was a typo, but there is Beswick Street in Ancoats .
Manchester.
Viktoria.
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Just in case it was a typo, but there is Beswick Street in Ancoats .
Manchester.
Viktoria.
I wondered that too, Viktoria
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Hello , I just looked again at his forwarding address and it says 13 Berwick St , off Brook St , Chorlton, Manchester .
I have no birth cert for him or any census until 1939 register which says born 12 th October 1887, I have sent for numerous possible birth certs but none correct yet , I even asked the GRO if they could just send me the births of William Jones's born that day but they say they don't work that way.
He enlisted in Manchester so maybe came from that area , his service record gives no clues either.
He married in Coventry in 1925 , why he came to Coventry I guess we will never know , maybe work ? He was a house painter
Regards
Alan
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Do you have a military record for him?
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As he stayed on till 1921 the MOD and civil service thinned his records down to two tiny strips giving hardly any info at all, disgraceful really , just trying to save storage space . Berwick St is the only " lead " really
Regards
Alan
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I know you say the record is scant but you also say he enlisted in Manchester. Do you have the regiment?
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He enlisted 10th November 1914 at Manchester into the Royal Garrison Artillery and into 59th Siege Battery RGA numbers 51328 and later 1410628 as a Gunner
Regards
Alan
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Free search of 1921 census
13 Berwick Street, (parish) South Manchester, (RD) Chorlton
Schedule numbers 40-45
William Edwin Matthews 1892 Crewe, Cheshire
Annie Matthews 1897 Tow Law, Durham
Daisy Matthews 1920 Manchester
John Garner 1858 Cheshire
Alice G Garner 1861 Lancashire
Albert Edward Rowe 1898 Hulme, Lancashire
Annie Rowe 1898 Ardwick, Lancashire
Lizzie Rowe 1917 Manchester
Albert Edward Rowe 1919 Hulme, Lancashire
Emily Parkin 1861 Liverpool Lodger
Robert B? 1874 Boarder
Patrick Long 1877 Lancashire Boarder
William Williams 1867 Liverpool
Ellen Williams 1869 Ireland
The Ancoats entry with same street address is home to
Denis & Mary Elizabeth Burns plus children and lodgers Bernard & Catherine McCaffery.
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my late grandfather was discharged from army on 28-6-1921
Though he was still in the army, William Jones should be in the 1921 census. Gunner in the RGA, I guess.
You would think he might be in England (or the UK, at any rate), about to be discharged? :-\
There's a William Jones in Richmond, Yorks, born 1884, Manchester (RGA?)
There are others, including abroad, i.e. one born 1887, Birmingham, in the Royal Artillery?
For those of us without full access, it's very hard to look.
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Speaking of access, or non access!
Royal Artillery Attestations 1883-1942
William Jones
Born 1890
Service number 1410628
Former service number 51328
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He enlisted 10th November 1914 at Manchester into the Royal Garrison Artillery and into 59th Siege Battery RGA numbers 51328 and later 1410628 as a Gunner
Regards
Alan
There is a Fold3 Pension Ledger card for:
Jones Wm R G A 10628 or 1410628
Stamped on it ‘Reject’ with a date (smudged) but possibly 1st Nov 1922
Salvation Army Hostel, Park Lane, Liverpool
The card can be seen without access to F3. I presume there would be no further info.
Another card with just the 1410628 number dated December 1921
The card seems to be for ‘No Trace’ but someone with better knowledge might explain.
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And lots of writing on his medal index card, free on ancestry
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/97326:1262
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Similarly on World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920
For W Jones/William Jones Gunner for medals - some are struck through with a note for elsewhere and various claimed/resubmitted.
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1939 register which says born 12 th October 1887
He married in Coventry in 1925
Who did he marry in Coventry in 1925? Alice Bishop?
1939, Coventry
William Jones, as said (married)
Lillian E Jones 1908 ? (married), later Porter.
She married Robert H Porter in 1946.
Did she die in Coventry in 1970, d-o-b 28 March 1905?
Then
Francis Jones, born 1923 (single)
Couple of redacted entries.
What goes on?
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Thank you , it seems at first he was not granted the 3 medals but after the "Kings Pardon " they were granted to him after all. Not sure what date of birth to believe 1890 or date given on 1939 register as 1887 .
Regards
Alan
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Yes he married Lilian E Jones in 1925 , she remarried Robert Porter in 1946 after William death in 1944
Francis Jones born 1923 was a son of William from previous relationship
Regards
Alan
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Sorry to keep asking questions.
Where did they marry in 1925?
Do you know where Francis was born?
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I could not see image on Fold3 but fascinated to know he was in Salvation Army Hostel in Liverpool in 1922, thank you
Regards
Alan
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They married in Coventry in 1925 , Francis was from a relationship in nearby Nuneaton , no birth cert though
Regards
Alan
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As he stayed on till 1921 the MOD and civil service thinned his records down to two tiny strips giving hardly any info at all
This is the Royal Artillery attestation record online. Perhaps there is a fuller service record for him.
Attested 10.11.14, Manchester
Age 24 years 9 months (doesn't match the 1939 record in either year or month)
Occupation Horse Trainer
Character on Discharge Bad
Pension Award Rejected
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His daughter.
Coventry Telegraph, 13 January 1940 (children's bit)
Telecoon Birthdays
January 13
May Jones 170, Sewall Highway (12)
Though it could be age 13, it's in the fold, and it comes out on the next page image as well. I think probably 12 (maybe 13 is too old for telecoons?)
Coventry Telegraph, 17 October 1944
Engagement
Pool - Jones
The engagement is announced between Roy (U.S. Army), eldest son of Mr. and Mrs. Pool, Denver, Colorado, and May, the only daughter of Mrs. and the late Mr. Jones, of 170 Sewall Highway, Wyken, Coventry.
Very young. Was there a marriage? :-\
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Yes JonW , thats the pathetic slip of paper I was sent after they " thinned " his service record . The original probably had place of birth , parents names and accurate birth date . I thought the 1939 register birth date was accurate as entered by himself and not army , the date 12th October fits as in my late fathers diary he mentions celebrating that day with his Dad .
As regards my Auntie May { Dads sister } I never knew anything about her engagement , it was never mentioned . She married Donald Gibbs on January 25th 1947. he was in British army .
Many thanks
Alan
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I have May Jones birth date as January 30th 1928 , so maybe a slip up with Coventry Telegraph , there was a war on though !
Regards
Alan
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Hi
Have you found any birth record for May?
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May Jones , her birth name was Mary Marjorie Jones born March qtr 1928 Foleshill Coventry 6D1047
mother maiden name checks out too - Collett
Regards
Alan
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Thank you.
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Could the address also be Brunswick Street off Upper Brook Street, Chorlton on Medlock, Manchester?
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I have just been looking on the 1921 census for him being in the army but no joy
Regards
Alan
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Could the address also be Brunswick Street off Upper Brook Street, Chorlton on Medlock, Manchester?
Near the present Mancunian Way
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side-old/#zoom=17.4&lat=53.47153&lon=-2.23561&layers=6&right=osm
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What about William Jones, born 1889, Liverpool, Lancashire
In the army at Woolwich in 1921
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What about William Jones, born 1889, Liverpool, Lancashire
In the army at Woolwich in 1921
Would that be the right regiment, Jon?
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Hi
He comes up using gunner and royal artillery as keywords (but not garrison)
Pity they didn't give them their army numbers!
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That would make it easy, Jon. ;)
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I got in touch with Salvation Army to see if they might have any archives for their park Lane , Liverpool hostel. They replied promptly saying it was also a Working mens hostel open from 1910 until it was bombed in 1942 , no records exist .
regards
Alan
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Hi
Sorry about the hostel.
Bad news about the Woolwich chap?
William's record says he was discharged at Dover (28.6.21)
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Yes I noticed Dover , his last " battery " was 533 Battery RGA at Bordon in Hampshire which was disbanded .I thought perhaps Dover was the administrative centre for demob ?
Regards
Alan
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Hi
It could be. Is there any sign in Bordon?
Can we use those Royal Artillery attestation records to eliminate some? I don't have full access at the moment, but I guess if they were still in the artillery in 1921 they would have those new numbers?
There are others, including abroad, i.e. one born 1887, Birmingham, in the Royal Artillery?
Could he be
William Jones, born 1888, Birmingham, no. 1407223, formerly 36401
Is this the guy at Woolwich? :-\
William Jones, born 1888, Liverpool , no. 1029092, formerly 288205
Why do they have birthplaces, but our guy doesn't?
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Thanks , I will take a look , but our man was RGA through and through . It winds me up all the more about those thinning the service records for those who stayed on
On saying that my other grandfathers records were destroyed in the blitz which was an act of war not some stupid civil service decision .
Regards
Alan
He gave his trade as horse trainer so could have been born in the countryside but enlisted Manchester.
I have been trying for twenty years now, endless wrong certs .
Regards
Alan
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It winds me up all the more about those thinning the service records for those who stayed on
On saying that my other grandfathers records were destroyed in the blitz which was an act of war not some stupid civil service decision .
From what you say, the two thin documents they sent you are from the Royal Artillery attestation ledger, not from his army file. I would suspect that his army records were among those destroyed by enemy action in WW2. He does not appear on the FoI lists of records held by the MoD for soldiers born before 1901.
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I had an explanation by MOD I think it was explaining why only the two thin slips and it was done long before WW2 , saving storage space they said .
Regards
Alan
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Per the attestation record he was 24 years and 9 months old on 10 November 1914 which would suggest a birth date in January or February 1890. Totally at odds with the October 1887 date in the 1939 register . All very curious.
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I know , I would have thought the 1939 register would be accurate , my late fathers diary says they celebrated his birthday on 12 th October , it drives me mad.
I just found a post I made in 2007 on Great War Forum regarding those two slips of service records , I paid my money and filled in kinship forms to get those from Historical Disclosures and when I complained about lack of content they said " we suspect some serious pruning by the civil service went on "
Regards
Alan
I thought the 1921 census would come up trumps , I counted the days down from about 4 years away !
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Your man was with 533 Battery RGA at the time of his discharge?
533 Battery was in Catterick at the time.
In their 1921 census return is William Jones, Gunner, aged 36 years and 8 months ( October-ish birthday!) birthplace Manchester.
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OOO tell me more ! I understood 533 Battery was disbanded in 1920 and he may have been kept on . Is there are more info ? Age given seems like another variation .
Regards
Alan
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No, that's about it, apart from his being single at the time. 533 Battery clearly had not disbanded in 1920.
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Do I enter 533 Battery and Catterick then ?
Regards
Alan
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Link to 1921 census: William Jones, 533 Battery
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1921%2FRG15%2F24202%2F0049%2F18
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Thanks , much appreciated , might be ordering more certificates
Regards
Alan
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Brilliant, Shaun. Well done!