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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Gordon163 on Sunday 13 August 23 15:51 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am investigating the case of a man, who died in hospital, in 2003, having been admitted as an emergency. The hospital did not have his medical records to hand. The family, when they registered his death, only had a date of birth from his Army attestation, which gave his dob as 10 Aug 1915.
When the Death Certificate was produced, the date of birth was 10 Aug 1917.
Presumably, the year of birth came as a result of The Registrar contacting DWP for Pension details.
It seems to be a familiar tale of a young man altering the year of his birth to get into the army.
Any thoughts most welcome,
Thanks,
Gordon
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(In England/Wales), registrars dont check birthdates with the DWP, or anyone else, it should be recorded as whatever the informant said.
Any certificate produced should match whatever is recorded on the register entry
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Without a name - how could anybody comment :)
Lots of male deaths in 2003 with that birthdate
You obviously know his name so have you looked for his birth on freebmd?
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So you are saying the August 1917 birthdate is the correct one as opposed to the one on his army attestation records?
When my father died in 2020, the hospital records had his DOB and I think they handed it to the registrar. I registered the death over the phone due to the pandemic but never had to send off for his birth certificate to give the birth details to the registrar.
My uncle by marriage died in 2008 of a long lung illness aged 43, the GRO death entry says born Nov 1964, but his funeral card says 1 September 1964. I would go with the early Nov date. Not sure what info on his birth was supplied but perhaps the hospital already had his details.
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If you want to give us a name we can see if we can help, but without a name you will have to try by yourself.
I'd start with what you know about the man - did have have known siblings? which country/county did they live in?
Did he marry, does anyone have his marriage record sitting in a drawer somewhere that will tell you his Dad's name and occupation? Maybe witnesses were siblings?
Have you looked for him on the 1921 census? He would have been aged 4- 6 so is likely to be with his parents. In my experience the nearer the record to the person's birth the great the chance of accuracy with the age/place of birth
If you can establish his parents' names then you can set to, looking for his birth registration (and that of any siblings to cross check the MMN) and hopefully then getting his birth cert.
Boo
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If you have a name, try the 1939 Register with the date (s) of birth and work backwards
Rebel
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If you have a name, try the 1939 Register with the date (s) of birth and work backwards
Rebel
If, as the OP suggests, this man may have fibbed about his age to join up then it would seem logical that by 1939 he would already be in the forces and therefore not included on the 1939 register.
Boo
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Yes, but worth a try
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If the family have his attestation papers and the OP thinks its possible the man lied about his age to join up, then its a real long shot to find him in the 1939 register - but as you say its worth checking
Boo
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Thanks for ann interesting arrya f relies, most of which have been tried without success, alas.
Gordon
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The only way to get an extra (lots of) pair of eyes to have a look would be to post a name and what you know of him. (not allowed to mention the living by name)
Offer is there should you decide to take it up
Boo
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My reply 2
Without a name - how could anybody comment :)
Lots of male deaths in 2003 with that birthdate
You obviously know his name so have you looked for his birth on freebmd?
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Unless he is reticent due to him being a close relative and does not want to disclose too much info, but if so, then we cannot assist him any further.
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Hi,
I am investigating the case of a man, who died in hospital, in 2003, having been admitted as an emergency. The hospital did not have his medical records to hand. The family, when they registered his death, only had a date of birth from his Army attestation, which gave his dob as 10 Aug 1915.
When the Death Certificate was produced, the date of birth was 10 Aug 1917.
Presumably, the year of birth came as a result of The Registrar contacting DWP for Pension details.
It seems to be a familiar tale of a young man altering the year of his birth to get into the army.
Any thoughts most welcome,
Thanks,
Gordon
Could it just have been an error? Did the family not challenge it at the time of receipt of the certificate?
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The family, when they registered his death, only had a date of birth from his Army attestation, which gave his dob as 10 Aug 1915.
When the Death Certificate was produced, the date of birth was 10 Aug 1917.
In my experience of registering deaths they give you the certificate at the end of the registration process before you leave the office. Could the registrar have been the one who made the error and no-one noticed at the time?
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The hospital registrar, for the death, concluded that the birth was not registered, so would not enter the year of birth, before seeking further advice.
So, there is no birth name to look for!
This is essentially a question about the working of officialdom.
Clearly, this man had been drawing a state pension, which began when he was 65, at the best date that the DWP could determine.
As his death certificate indicates, that date was 2 years later than the Army Attestation date.
Obviously, some senior civil servant made a decision.
Unless someone has any further useful comments, relating to Civil Service procedure, I will not trouble you further.
Thanks for your help,
Gordon
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Is there any particular reason why you won't give his name?
You post asking for our thoughts etc but without the name of the person - how can we realistically give them?
He has been dead for 20yrs so no privacy rules are being breached
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The hospital registrar, for the death, concluded that the birth was not registered, so would not enter the year of birth, before seeking further advice.
So, there is no birth name to look for!
This is essentially a question about the working of officialdom.
Is this hearsay or were you present?
(In England/Wales), registrars dont check birthdates with the DWP, or anyone else, it should be recorded as whatever the informant said.
Any certificate produced should match whatever is recorded on the register entry
Your information does not seem to match with usual procedures as mentioned by AntonyMMM.
Perhaps you or the family are not in possession of all the details.
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From his daughter (only child), who was the informant.
G
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Thank you for your reply.
You say you have already checked our suggestions but nevertheless here are mine:
His marriage certificate with his fathers name and occupation
1921 census with said parents
1939 register
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He must have been registered. Born 1915 or 1917. Unless he was born under a different name, or was adopted or a foundling. Legal adoptions did not start until 1926 I think but there was always foundling.
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Sorry, I must have missed that.
Has a birth registration never been found in his known name?
What are the earliest records you have in his name (as known at death).
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Presumably his daughter must know who his parents, her grandparents were. Regardless of whether he was born in 1915 or 1917, he should appear with his parents in the 1921 census. Hopefully they would have given his correct age, so the correct birth year could be calculated from that.
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I was born in similar circumstances after WW2. I got my adoption papers in 1977 - which showed my father to be "Jack Robinson, Army Driver, Age about 30" - total ficticious nonsense.
I discovered my father's identity in 2018 by matching my DNA with his grandson - then obtaining father's army records, which confirmed that he was in the right place at the right time!
The daughter in this investigation is a DNA match of mine.
She knows her paternal grandfather's identity, but not that of her paternal grandmother. Her father did not know the identity of his mother, as he was brought up by a variety of people, who were distant relatives, at best, being before 1926, as mentioned.
Using our shared DNA matches, I think that I have worked out the identity of her paternal grandmother, who registered the birth of a son, which would agree with the later birth date (i.e. not what is on the Army attestation). There is some agreement in the names, but not total agreement. Obviously, I cannot be 100% certain.
The daughter does not accept this, but relies on some purely circumstantial evidence, which was among her father's papers. Her choice of paternal grandmother only works for the earlier date of birth, for which there are no BMD records to support it.
Thanks for your comments and I hope this makes it a little clearer.
Gordon
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This is essentially a question about the working of officialdom.
Clearly, this man had been drawing a state pension, which began when he was 65, at the best date that the DWP could determine.
As his death certificate indicates, that date was 2 years later than the Army Attestation date.
Obviously, some senior civil servant made a decision.
Unless someone has any further useful comments, relating to Civil Service procedure, I will not trouble you further.
Gordon
Having spent a several of my early working years employed by the then Dept of Employment, I would have thought that his pension date would have been decided by the information attached to his National Insurance number as most pensions and benefits were. That information would have existed for a long time prior to his 65th birthday, and would have been used by his employer/s. By the time he reached that birthday the system was computerised. Even in the mid 70's the offices were using the computer systems.
Although I don't know, I would suspect that if the information that they held was wrong, it could be contested by providing all the relevant prove they required. NI numbers are now attached to a child shortly after birth when a child benefit claim is made, but of course, this wouldn't have applied to the man you are researching.
(Added: just to clarify if a man born in 1915/17 claimed benefits when I worked in benefits in the mid 70s to 80s we would have received his NI record via a computer printout and as far as I can remember this also included a dob)
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His birth could have been registered under a different name
(I recently found a birth reg like this, which I have assumed to be the correct birth based on the first and middle names, names of mother and especially the father's occupation, which is consistent with a baptism 8 years later and marriage at which was given a made up father's name, but the occupation was the same)
This could apply if the mother was single etc.
Or he could have been born somewhere else; a different country.