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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: louisemcm on Thursday 10 August 23 14:32 BST (UK)
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Hello
Please could anyone identify the regiment and name of this soldier.
I read his signature as Ernest L Palmer but am not sure if that is correct.
I think he served in the RAMC and lived in Ipswich before the war.
I am trying to find out if he survived the war. He was still alive on April 2 1917 as I have a letter from him. It says "A Section - no 241" but I'm unsure what that means.
Grateful for any help.
Thanks
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This one was in the RAMC and it mentions 241
Ernest L Palmer
Archive reference WO372/15
Service number 241
Rank Private
Regiment Royal Army Medical Corps
Service record Soldier Number: 241, Rank: Private, Corps: Royal Army Medical Corps
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4496870
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He was awarded the British & Victory medals per the MRI
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His WW1 service record is on Ancestry- Ernest Leonard Palmer
Sadly - he was killed in action 1.12.1917 in France but the cwgc entry has a different service number than the WW1 service record & MRI entries
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/300488/e-l-palmer/
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Service records on FindMyPast Ernest Leonard Palmer, 221 Harlesden Road, Willesden Green
KIA 1st December 1917 British Expeditionary Force, FRANCE
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Does the FindMyPast entry show his service number as 241 Rosie? cwgc have a different number
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Yes, It has 241
2nd C of L Field Ambulance
R.A.M.C.T.F
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That's the same number on the Service record & the same address in Harlesden but cwgc has 510175
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Thank you so much both.
Do Service numbers change? I don't know much about the military. Is it his own number or for his regiment?
There seems to be an Ernest L Palmer whose number is 241 and then on the next page and EL Palmer number 5610. Lower down on that entry it has the name of Ernest L Palmer handwritten on it.
I was wondering if that could be the Ernest who died possibly?
I was really hoping that he didn't die. :'(
Would you know what "C of L" means and RAMCTF stands for?
Thanks again
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That 510175 is also stamped on the first two pages
Earlier census has that Leonard with his parents William R and Catherine S Palmer at the address given on the record
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RAMCTF - Royal Army Medical Corps Territorial Force
ADDED - for starters :)
C of L - C of London Field Ambulance
C is for Company
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His signature looks the same as the one on your photo - signed 20th July 1915 at Ipswich
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No Theatre of War shown on the MRI entry & unfortunately no age or parents on the cwgc entry
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Well spotted Rosie - definitely the right WW1 Service record
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RAMCTF - Royal Army Medical Corps Territorial Force
ADDED - for starters :)
C of L - C of London Field Ambulance
Thank you ! Sorry for the ignorance
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If you go further into his WW1 record - shows father William Robert Palmer as NoK 221 Harlesden Rd.
Ernest was unmarried. Attestation date 3.9.1914
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His birth is on freebmd - March qtr 1891 Chelsea?
What is your interest in him?
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His father received his medals :)
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1911 entry
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW44-8KV
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Thank you for the information.
I would love to have found out how he knew my relatives in Ipswich as that seems quite a journey from Harlesden.
I have a lovely letter from him, sent to my great-grandmother thanking her for sending a huge parcel out to him and reminiscing about tea-parties in Ipswich. His Colonel G A Harding (?) also writes in the letter too. I've attached his signature - do you think it is GA or JA Harding?
Would his Colonel have been in the RAMC too? Were the members of the RAMC kept together?
I'm so grateful to you both for your help.
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His birth is on freebmd - March qtr 1891 Chelsea?
What is your interest in him?
I think he might have been a suitor to my grandmother (referred to as Edie in the letter). She kept the letter and his photo until her death. She married my grandfather in 1929 and I'm not sure if I imagined that she had a previous attachment to perhaps Ernest Palmer before him. She was born in 1899.
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RAMCTF - Royal Army Medical Corps Territorial Force
ADDED - for starters :)
C of L - C of London Field Ambulance
C is for Company
Just a slight correction, it's either County of London or City of London, not company. A much later (1995) RAMC unit had the title 256 (City of London) Field Hospital (https://www.friendsofmillbank.org/downloads/256_Fd_Hosp.pdf) but I can't see any direct connection with an earlier First World War Field Ambulance. If the CWGC entry is correct and his unit was 2/2 Field Ambulance then this unit was attached to 59th (2nd North Midland) Division. However given his unit was raised in London I am doubtful about the 2/2 Fd Amb designation.
More on the work and composition of a WW1 Field Ambulance on the Long, Long Trail: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/the-evacuation-chain-for-wounded-and-sick-soldiers/field-ambulances-in-the-first-world-war/
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Thanks Andy
Here is the first page of his letter which has his details at the top.
Does that help with finding where he was?
I've just found a medical entry saying he had trench foot in Nov 1916 - which is actually mentioned by the Colonel in the letter later on!
Kind regards
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RAMCTF - Royal Army Medical Corps Territorial Force
In early 1917, the British Army renumbered all serving members of the Territorial Force , the new numbers issued were 6 digits hence his record showing 510175
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Here is the first page of his letter which has his details at the top.
Does that help with finding where he was?
Unfortunately 'A section' only narrows him down to the first of 3 sections (the others being named B and C)) which made up a field ambulance. Every standard Field Ambulance would have had the same composition, and unfortunately his letter doesn't include his unit's name. Maybe it was on the back of the envelope. You can see the structure of A section in the link I included in my previous post. He would have been one of 54 Private soldiers in A section, assuming the unit was up to full strength. The likelihood is that he was a stretcher bearer - an exceptionally dangerous job. The letter is ambiguous on this point.
I am still trying to locate his Commanding Officer Lt Col GA Harding RAMC
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Here is the first page of his letter which has his details at the top.
Does that help with finding where he was?
Unfortunately 'A section' only narrows him down to the first of 3 sections (the others being named B and C)) which made up a field ambulance. Every standard Field Ambulance would have had the same composition, and unfortunately his letter doesn't include his unit's name. Maybe it was on the back of the envelope. You can see the structure of A section in the link I included in my previous post. He would have been one of 54 Private soldiers in A section, assuming the unit was up to full strength. The likelihood is that he was a stretcher bearer - an exceptionally dangerous job. The letter is ambiguous on this point.
I am still trying to locate his Commanding Officer Lt Col GA Harding RAMC
Thank you so much Andy
I've attached the middle two pages of the 4 page letter here. Unfortunately, there was no envelope with the letter.
He mentions several other names and I don't know if that would help find his unit?
Thank you so much for your help.
Kind regards
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Thanks for the other pages of the letter, I must admit I was wondering how Col Harding came to be writing in the same letter. The letter as a whole indicates a fairly close relationship between Mrs Nuttall and the men of the Field Ambulance. Perhaps she had some connection with them in the early years of the war. Although there are other people referred to rather cryptically (the twins, our Bungalow friends) I'm not sure this is going help identify them. From Pte Palmer's service details which you provided it looks as though once they were deployed on operations they were just referred to as 2/2 London Field Ambulance without the LofC bit. The Long Long Trail website says this unit served initially with the 58th (2/1st) London Division until February 1916 and then with 56th (London) Division until the Armistice.
According to Wikipedia 58 Div (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/58th_(2/1st_London)_Division) spent most of the first three years of the war in reserve in the UK, significantly in the Ipswich area for part of that time: Training.
In August 1915, the division concentrated around Ipswich in Eastern England and received the number 58, its brigades being numbered 173–5. Here it formed part of First Army in Central Force. In September 1915 the 1st Line artillery brigades went to France and were replaced by the division's own 2nd Line units. In the Spring of 1916 the division took over a sector of the East Coast defences. Then in July 1916 it went to Sutton Veny on Salisbury Plain for final training before deploying overseas. [...] The division began embarking for France on 20 January 1917 and had concentrated by 8 February. It then served for the remainder of the war on the Western Front.
Clearly from the letter, which is dated 2 April 1917, the Field Ambulance is in France somewhere and is by now part of 56 Infantry Division.
The Long, Long Trail has a useful article about the 56th Division and the actions in which it was involved, here: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/56th-1st-london-division/
My guess is that 2/2 London Field Ambulance would have been acting in direct support of one of the Brigades (167, 168 or 169) although without seeing any of the operation orders for the various battles I wouldn't want to guess which. If that information does come to light it should be possible to narrow down more precisely where on the battlefield Pte Palmer met his death. If you would like to follow up on this particular aspect, search the TNA website for the war diaries of those three brigades. Most of them have been photographed but are not digitized, so you will need to download them (for free, once you have registered with TNA) and then do your best to stumble through the often tiny handwriting and copious military jargon in the hope of of seeing a reference to 2/2 Field Ambulance. The most likely place within the diaries will be if they included a copy of an operation order (OpO) for a particular phase of the battle. The good news is that, if there is an OpO, it will have been typed and so be easier to read. You will probably need to scroll towards the end of any OpO to where they talk about supporting troops. However if there had been no change to the previous order of battle, it is less likely anything will be noted about the medical support.
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Wow!
Thank you so much Andy!
The troop being based in Ipswich would explain how my ancestors knew Ernest Palmer and the Colonel and the other names mentioned.
I will have a look at the material you suggested. Thank you!
The twins that the letter mentions are two little children that my great-grandmother adopted, I think after the death of her son, Albert Edmund Nuttall in 1915. He served in the RAMC and drowned when the Royal Albert went down.
I hope the Colonel survived the war and if so, I could track down any of his descendants who might be interested in seeing part of a letter that he wrote from the front.
I've been trying to see if any siblings of Ernest Palmer had descendants who would like to see the letter too.
Best wishes
Louise
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The 2/2 FA diary is on Ancestry so also at TNA.
However I can tell you that the diary gives no details
on the 1/12/17 other than engaging in normal duties.
Ferreting around I found that on 15/11/17 32 stretcher bearers
were sent to 2/1 FA who were at Beugny (France) supporting an operation
being undertaken by the 56th. Div. (Cambrai Operation)
On the 30th. of Nov. - 2nd. Dec. the Div. suffered counter-offensives
resulting in many casualties.
The 2/1 FA C.O. doesn't mention men from his unit being killed or wounded
but he does give overall numbers admitted which may include his own men.
On 1/12/17 he states 194 OR's were admitted & 3 died.
It's more than possible one of those was Ernest.
I would suggest that your man was one of those bearers sent from 2/2 FA to 2/1 FA
& lost his life rescuing others.
As has been said it was a very dangerous job.
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The 2/2 FA diary is on Ancestry so also at TNA.
However I can tell you that the diary gives no details
on the 1/12/17 other than engaging in normal duties.
Ferreting around I found that on 15/11/17 32 stretcher bearers
were sent to 2/1 FA who were at Beugny (France) supporting an operation
being undertaken by the 56th. Div. (Cambrai Operation)
On the 30th. of Nov. - 2nd. Dec. the Div. suffered counter-offensives
resulting in many casualties.
The 2/1 FA C.O. doesn't mention men from his unit being killed or wounded
but he does give overall numbers admitted which may include his own men.
On 1/12/17 he states 194 OR's were admitted & 3 died.
It's more than possible one of those was Ernest.
I would suggest that your man was one of those bearers sent from 2/2 FA to 2/1 FA
& lost his life rescuing others.
As has been said it was a very dangerous job.
Thank you so much for this information. Best wishes
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Louise,
Just to save you some time searching on TNA, the link to the 2/2 London Field Ambulance war diary is: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354923
Correction. I think that TNA or someone at the War Office has misidentifed the War Diary. The one in the link appears to be 22 Field Ambulance commanded by Major SA Archer RAMC which deployed to France in 1914.
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Louise,
Just to save you some time searching on TNA, the link to the 2/2London Field Ambulance war diary is: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354923
Thank you so much. I'll have a look
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The 2/2 FA diary is on Ancestry so also at TNA.
However I can tell you that the diary gives no details
on the 1/12/17 other than engaging in normal duties.
Ferreting around I found that on 15/11/17 32 stretcher bearers
were sent to 2/1 FA who were at Beugny (France) supporting an operation
being undertaken by the 56th. Div. (Cambrai Operation)
On the 30th. of Nov. - 2nd. Dec. the Div. suffered counter-offensives
resulting in many casualties.
The 2/1 FA C.O. doesn't mention men from his unit being killed or wounded
but he does give overall numbers admitted which may include his own men.
On 1/12/17 he states 194 OR's were admitted & 3 died.
It's more than possible one of those was Ernest.
I would suggest that your man was one of those bearers sent from 2/2 FA to 2/1 FA
& lost his life rescuing others.
As has been said it was a very dangerous job.
Thank you so much for this information. Best wishes
I forgot to ask - what is an OR that you mentioned above?
Best wishes
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OR = Other Rank. Technically anyone who is not a commissioned officer, but frequently used to describe privates, lance corporals and corporals, as distinct from Senior Non Commissioned Officers (SNCOs) and Officers. Roughly synonymous with the term Rank and File, sometimes shown as R&F.
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Thank you Andy :)
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Louise, In case you missed it, I have given you an incorrect link above. Just seeing if I can find the correct one.
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Thank you. I did try to log into the National Archives but for some reason the login page was saying that it didn't exist for me!
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Jim1,
Can you post a link to the war diary you referred to. It seems that TNA have cross linked both 2/2 London Field Ambulance (WO95/2944/2) and 22 Field Ambulance (WO95/1647/2) to the war diary pages of the latter unit. The incorrect pdfs are numbered WO95/1647/2_1 to WO95/1647/2_4 so clearly relate to 22 Fd Amb.
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/01sl5/
2/1, 2/2 & 2/3 are in the same bundle.
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Same at TNA
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354923
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/01sl5/
2/1, 2/2 & 2/3 are in the same bundle.
Thank you - these are fascinating. How wonderful to see what they were up to in Ipswich which is when I presume they got to know my great-grandmother's family. I couldn't find the Colonel's name listed or other people like "Goggs?"
Thanks again
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Is it an assumption that GA Harding is the Colonel or do you
have him with that rank.
He certainly wasn't C.O. of any of the 3 London FA's.
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Thanks, Jim,
Unfortunately I don't have an Ancestry sub. However the TNA link you provided is the faulty one which links to the 22 Field Ambulance Diaries (with the pdf names WO95/167/2_1 etc). I assume the ones on Ancestry are the correct ones (pdfs WO95/2944/2_1 etc). The important thing is that it appears that Louise has the Ancestry link so she can access the information she needs.
Louise, the diary entries should be signed by the CO at the end of each year so you should be able to confirm that Lt Col GA Harding RAMC is the commanding officer.
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Hi Jim
In the letter Ernest refers to him as "The Colonel". However in the part that G(J?)A Harding writes he mentions applying for a commission in the Artillery. Would he need a commission if he were already an officer. I have no military knowledge so don't know.
Thank you
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Would he need a commission if he were already an officer
No & it's just not possible even if he did receive a commission that he
would reach the rank of Lt. Col. by the time Ernest writes his letter even at all.
Andy the link I gave takes you to the 2/2 LFA diary as I downloaded it to check.
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Thanks Jim.
Unfortunately TNA is not allowing me to download the diaries on that link, probably beacause I've already done it twice today and got the same (incorrect) diaries. It's not an issue, if Louise has the correct diaries. If I have time tomorrow I may go to my local library and use Ancestry.
Thanks for your help.