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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Runner55 on Wednesday 02 August 23 17:44 BST (UK)
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Hi Rootschatters
Myself and some American cousins have been trying for some time now on Ancestry, and other similar databases, to find a birth record for an ancestor named John Francis Carroll born 1850, supposedly in Manchester.
There is one birth record that keeps coming up for a John Francis Carroll born late in 1850 in Oldham, Lancashire, but following the future path in England of this particular John Francis suggests it's not our man, because our John Francis Carroll emigrated to America with his parents c.1867 - my American cousins are his descendants.
Our John Francis Carroll's parents were Mark Carroll and Catherine (nee Fagan), both Irish immigrants who settled in Manchester (late 1840's) where Mark Carroll was a silk weaver - obviously seeking work opportunities in the English mills round the years of the potato famine in Ireland.
What we do have, however, are the 1851 England Census where Mark, Catherine and John Francis (5 months old) are living on Camp Street in Manchester; and the 1861 England Census where the family have moved over to Atherton, Lancashire - obviously still involved in the silk weaving industry.
Having exhausted all the usual on-line databases, would anyone know of any other archive records for Manchester that might not have been digitised yet where we might be able to locate John Francis Carroll's baptism or civil birth record - I believe civil registration started in England in 1837.
Any steer would be most appreciated!
Thanking you in advance
Runner55
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Do you know when his parents married? Is it possible he was born in Ireland or registered under Fagan.
Did he have younger siblings born in Manchester area?
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Hi Milliepede
Thank you for your reply. No known siblings, and also none listed on the family's emigration voyage to America in 1867. We have also looked at the Irish birth records under both names of Carroll and Fagan (likewise, we've searched both names in the English records too).
Never been able to find possible marriage records in either Ireland or England either. Very frustrating.
Unfortunately, keep coming up negative. Would you be aware of any other sources of information - church records etc., that haven't been digitised yet?
Many thanks
Runner55
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Were they C of E or R C ?
Not all catholic baptisms are on line yet.
From 1851 census are you assuming that Ann Fegan is Catherine's mother?
She could be Mark's mother if she had been widowed before and remarried.
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Just a thought but what about O’Carroll spelling in case they dropped the O
I don’t know about offline records for Manchester I’m afraid. A Catholic baptism somewhere perhaps.
Have you used the GRO website birth index which allows for different spellings?
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Are they the one's in New York 1870 because their ages vary a lot, makes it difficult to pin down a birth year.
1851 Mark is 24 Catherine 26
1861 Mark is 30 Catherine 30
1870 Mark is 64 Catherine 46 - John with them is 40?
1880 Mark is 50 Catherine 49
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1875 State census New York they are both 45 years old and son John 21
If he was born 1850 he should be 25
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I have Carrolls from Ireland who went to Manchester after the 1841 potato famine. They too went to live in America and their ages vary between the censuses, also their surname varied between ...Carroll, Carrol and Karell, also Catherine, Kathryn, Kate and Cate were variations for her Christian name. The census in America showed that they could read or write, so it's not surprising, but very frustrating.
Carol
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Do you have Mark Carroll's death certificate ? (12939)
It will have his parents names on it.
If I have the correct one he died 2 August 1892 buried 6th at Holy Cross Cemetery Brooklyn.
Have you contacted the cemetery to see if they have additional information re his interment,
common grave?, who purchased the grave? Is Catherine buried with him?
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Tel # for the cemetery 718-284-4520
Mark and John F are in the same grave - Section OLIV Row G Plot 56
The website says to contact them if you cannot find a person, I expect they have paper files to consult.
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Many thanks to all further replies; amondg, Treetotal and Milliepede.
In answer to your questions, the family were Catholics and we've trawled the GRO website so many times, alas to no avail. We don't have Mark's death certificate but we do have John Francis's death certificate in New York, and Mark Carroll and Catherine Fagan are shown as his parents.
The grave in the Holy Cross Cemetery, Brooklyn where Mark and John Francis are buried was actually bought by John Francis, and JF's mother Catherine is also buried there, as was his own wife Teresa.
Yes, they are the right US census records - the dates of birth for the family on these documents do tend to jump about a lot, to the extreme - seems to be a common thing back in those days - total lack of consistency in birth dates, particularly Irish Census records, as I've found with other branches of my family research. People had all sorts of personal reasons for changing their birth dates. Very frustrating (and inconsiderate ;)) for we modern family history researchers!
We've tried every type of spelling variation for all the names, and also searched high and low across all birth and marriage records in England (way beyond Manchester) and across all counties of Ireland.
It's a total mystery and I wonder if John Francis was never registered as a civil birth, but that his baptism lies somewhere in un-digitised Catholic church records, most likely Manchester.
One thing I've always been able to rely upon in my own Irish Catholic research is baptism records - they might've missed the odd civil registration but woe betide a child not getting baptised!
All input has been much appreciated. I guess our search goes on and hopefully more baptism records will come on-line in due course.
Runner55
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There are some Catholic indexes available and records then to purchase but you have to purchase CDRoms from the local society.
You may however, be able to find records through local archives.
I have to say, though, that results are disappointing.
https://mlfhs.uk/databases/catholic-records
Searching for Mark Carroll around the right time gives that name as Godfather to several children.
1850 Peter Keefe at Manchester, Cheetham Hill, St. Chad
1855 John Carroll at Manchester, Cheetham Hill, St. Chad
1861 John Mylott at Manchester, St. Patrick, Livesey Street
Needless to say that finding civil/census records for these are difficult. It just would not be straight forward ::)
I can’t see Peter Keefe but then found a marriage in 1844 for Andrew Keeffe and Mary A Fegan in 1844 here
https://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/marriagesearch.php
Cross referencing the marriage on Catholic records they married at St Wilfred’s Hulme but that is the other side of the town to St Chad’s and St Patrick’s.
Not much help really :-\
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I have found a likely Peter Keeffe living in Cheshire in 1861 2588 /178/1
His mother seems to have married Peter Flood and her maiden name was Fox so no obvious connection to Mark Carroll. :-\
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Thank you for your notes Heywood - there may well be something there for me to follow up on with the baptisms and Mark Carroll's role as godfather ... hmm ... might be onto something there.
Much obliged!
Runner55
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Ancestry Census England 1851 at 49 Camp Street Deansgate Manchester
SHENTON Samuel 29y pattern warper b. Manchester Lancashire
SHENTON Ann 31y b. Bolton Lancashire
SHENTON Emma 5y b. Manchester
SHENTON Samuel 2y b. Manchester
POTTS John M 7y b. Manchester
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PREDAM Hannah head unmarried 33y folder & sewer b. Manchester
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CARROLL Mark 24y silk weaver b. Ireland
CARROLL Catherine 26y power loom weaver b. Ireland
CARROLL John 5m b. Manchester Lancashire
FEGAN Ann 62y mother formerly cook b. Ireland
CUNDELL Mary 50y lodger wid formerly servant b. Ireland
CUNDELL Bearneard 21y lodger un cork cutter b. Ireland
Three households at this premises.
I read this to be Ann FEGAN, mother of head-of-house Mark CARROLL
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Hi wivenhoe, we've always thought this Ann Fegan was (Fegan/Fagan) Mark's wife Catherine Fagan's mother and the relationship 'mother' was being loosely interpreted as the matriarchal figure in the house. But, yes, could also feasibly be Mark's mother who'd remarried and changed her name.
The plot thickens. Lots to think about there.
Runner55
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Hi Runner 55
The earlier of the Catholic churches in Manchester was the 'Hidden Gem' aka St. Mary Mulberry Street. So this is always a good place to start to look for Catholic ancestors in Manchester.
If you are having trouble locating them in terms of their profession as silk weavers personally I would be directing you towards Macclesfield and Stockport which were silk weaving towns.
CD
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Hi
It’s nice to meet someone else having fun with these lovely Landscapes Irish families!
My grandmother and her Irish family ended up in Salford and Manchester.
However it became clear that they did not come to Salford first,
The Roman Catholic Church they used first only had records from a couple of years after they came
For possibly this reason and others especially family they were still having baptisms and marriages in Ireland
I found a group of families who appeared as witnesses on those RC baptisms and marriages and many of them turned out to be related
The same group including some Carroll’s repeatedly turned up together having baptisms in Ireland
You may be able to pursue similar avenues
In my case my first discovery was that my ggrandmother Anastasia Hoey was born in Heywood. Her parents were married in Bury C ofE. I found some children but not all baptised in Heywood RC. Also many godparents including Carroll’s.
They then went to Salford but the missing baptisms remained a mystery.
Eventually knowing her father John Hoey was born in Dublin with the help of the net I found two missing baptisms at St Michael Dublin. complete with referrals to the mother of HeywoodUK.
To my surprise there were also other events to other Hoeys and people related to them
I’ve also found links before that. Including cousins/ aunts from Dundalk and possible links to a group of Hoeys around Castlebellingham. I’m still chipping away. Like you many went to America.
The best Irish links were Irish genealogy, the big sites such as Ancestry and good old Rootschat
Just a few ideas. Is it worth trying Heywood? Latest Irish records? Back to Ireland? Some of my best clues were from looking at the whole group of Hoey saddlers and the godparents
Also a kind person checked the slow led 1851 census for Salford and that’s where I got my Dundalk and Cassidy link from
I hope you see an Avenue here you haven’t tried
Sorry it’s a bit rambled but you so want to give any one bogged down with these lovely people!
Good luck
Emms ??? ;)