RootsChat.Com
General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: AngelaF67 on Monday 31 July 23 13:13 BST (UK)
-
So it turns out that the man who was my grandad isn’t my biological grandad. My mum knew that her real dad was called Jo Hayes/ Heys or Haynes who lived in Briercliffe, Lancashire and that’s it.
I got my mum to take an Ancestry DNA test in the hope that I might trace that side of the family but I’ve no clue how to even start looking. Mum was born in 1941 so no census to look through.
I’m fairly knew to DNA so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you Angela x
-
Have you checked the 1939 Register for your grandmother and biological grandfather?
-
Presume your mother was illegitimate & that her birth cert only has her mothers details - is that correct?
Was she adopted or did her mother marry the man you thought was your grandfather?
If she was adopted - has she applied for her adoption records?
My mum knew that her real dad was called Jo Hayes/ Heys or Haynes who lived in Briercliffe, Lancashire
How did she know? Did she ever have any contact with him or is that just what she was told?
I got my mum to take an Ancestry DNA test in the hope that I might trace that side of the family but I’ve no clue how to even start looking.
Without knowing what the results were it's impossible to give any advice
-
So it turns out that the man who was my grandad isn’t my biological grandad. My mum knew that her real dad was called Jo Hayes/ Heys or Haynes who lived in Briercliffe, Lancashire and that’s it.
I got my mum to take an Ancestry DNA test in the hope that I might trace that side of the family but I’ve no clue how to even start looking. Mum was born in 1941 so no census to look through.
I’m fairly knew to DNA so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you Angela x
Have your Mum's matches been divided into Parent 1 and Parent 2? It takes 3 or 4 months after you initially get your test. This is using a new technology called SideView, and is very useful for those who have an unknown parent
https://whoareyoumadeof.com/blog/ancestry-sideview-understand-your-results/
Once you are sure which parent is which, you can set all Parent 1 or 2 as maternal or paternal matches.
https://support.ancestry.co.uk/s/article/DNA-Matches-Split-Up-By-Parent
Once you have done that, you should start to go through your Mum's paternal matches, and look for surnames in common in their trees. You can also look at the shared matches. Initially you can put them all in a Grandpa group 1, 2 etc. If you work out they connect on a specific family you can rename the group to say 'Grandpa - Smith' or 'Grandpa - Smith & Jones'.
https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Find_Your_Unknown_Father_using_DNA
https://www.yourdnaguide.com/ydgblog/dna-testing-to-identify-a-birth-father-or-birth-mother
-
Another way to approach this is by making a tree on ancestry, putting in the name of your mum's 'real dad'.
I'm presuming that he is going to be around the same age as (or a bit older than) your grandmother, so it may be possible to find a record for someone of that name and age.
Putting his name on the tree, you may get hints - which do need to be checked (not just accepted).
Also if you attach your mum's dna to this tree, then thrulines will work and hopefully be able to suggest some matches which are on your mom's paternal side.
hth,
Lisa
-
Also it might be worth looking at the list of matches to your mum's dna, searching for the name Hayes/Heys or Haynes and seeing if that family name is in any matches' trees.
-
Briercliffe came under Nelson RD but no birth for a Joseph?? Hayes/Heyes/Haines/Haynes etc etc
between 1915-1922 in that RD
Although he possibly lived in Briercliffe - he could have been born elsewhere.
What year was your grandmother born & did she live in Briercliffe?
-
Have you checked the 1939 Register for your grandmother and biological grandfather?
My grandmother never lived with my mums biological father, they had an affair after my grandad went off to war. From what I can gather he was also a soldier but on the home front and they would have been together in 1940.
Thank you Angela x
-
Briercliffe came under Nelson RD but no birth for a Joseph?? Hayes/Heyes/Haines/Haynes etc etc
between 1915-1922 in that RD
Although he possibly lived in Briercliffe - he could have been born elsewhere.
What year was your grandmother born & did she live in Briercliffe?
My Grandma was born in 1912 and lived in Nelson most of her life and a short spell in Barrowford when a child, my mum recalls grandma saying Joe lived in Briercliffe but it could have been Brierfield, mums 82 so her memory isn’t brilliant, her words not mine :)
Thank you
Angela x
-
So your grandmother was married but had an affair while her husband was serving in WW2. I am guessing her husband was in no doubt that he wasn't the biological father but brought her up as his own.
I have an identical situation in my own FH - my uncle fathered a child to a married woman while he was based at Fulwood barracks & her husband was serving abroad. Howver - my uncle was born in Liverpool. "Joe" could have been born anywhere but just based in or around Nelson.
I'm not fully au fait with all the DNA procedures but my uncles past came to light when his granddaughter in Australia did her DNA & presumably made the results publicly available??? She was contacted by the grandson of the illegitimate son & the "skeletons came out of the closet" as they say.
Did your mother ever have any contact with Joe?
See reply 3 - What do the DNA results indicate?
-
War times did see a boom in infidelity sadly. Husbands serving abroad for months or years, and no guarantee they would return home.
-
Presume your mother was illegitimate & that her birth cert only has her mothers details - is that correct?
Was she adopted or did her mother marry the man you thought was your grandfather?
If she was adopted - has she applied for her adoption records?
My mum knew that her real dad was called Jo Hayes/ Heys or Haynes who lived in Briercliffe, Lancashire
How did she know? Did she ever have any contact with him or is that just what she was told?
I got my mum to take an Ancestry DNA test in the hope that I might trace that side of the family but I’ve no clue how to even start looking.
Without knowing what the results were it's impossible to give any advice
Mum wasn’t adopted by my grandad but he brought mum up as his own.
Mum met her real dads son one time and tried to introduce herself, he was very rude and told her “ I know who YOU are, stay away from my dad and my family”, guess he was worried mum would steal his dad or something.
Also my grandma told mum that Joe was her dad, he asked grandma to run away with him but she refused. I have part of a love letter from him to my grandma but it just confirms his name was Joe and that he loved my grandma it was posted in Nelson which I thought strange as he was on duty whilst writing the letter, it’s a shame the rest perished before I got it.
Thank you to everyone for taking the time to explain the DNA bit for me, I have added Joe as mum’s biological father but got no hints yet but that’s probably as I’ve only added his name.
I will follow the advice given and take a look at the paternal matches to see if there is a Heys/Hayes/ Haynes and I’ll add a possible birth year for Joe to see what hints will find and I’ll also compare the Shared Matches.
All this will keep me busy for a while, thank you everyone, I really appreciate the help.
Angela x
-
So your grandmother was married but had an affair while her husband was serving in WW2. I am guessing her husband was in no doubt that he wasn't the biological father but brought her up as his own.
I have an identical situation in my own FH - my uncle fathered a child to a married woman while he was based at Fulwood barracks & her husband was serving abroad. Howver - my uncle was born in Liverpool. "Joe" could have been born anywhere but just based in or around Nelson.
I'm not fully au fait with all the DNA procedures but my uncles past came to light when his granddaughter in Australia did her DNA & presumably made the results publicly available??? She was contacted by the grandson of the illegitimate son & the "skeletons came out of the closet" as they say.
Did your mother ever have any contact with Joe?
See reply 3 - What do the DNA results indicate?
Thank you Carole I’m hoping that someone will contact me, it would be great to be able to tell my mum I’ve found her family before it’s too late.
Angela x
-
So it turns out that the man who was my grandad isn’t my biological grandad. My mum knew that her real dad was called Jo Hayes/ Heys or Haynes who lived in Briercliffe, Lancashire and that’s it.
Have your Mum's matches been divided into Parent 1 and Parent 2? It takes 3 or 4 months after you initially get your test. This is using a new technology called SideView, and is very useful for those who have an unknown parent
https://whoareyoumadeof.com/blog/ancestry-sideview-understand-your-results/
Once you are sure which parent is which, you can set all Parent 1 or 2 as maternal or paternal matches.
https://support.ancestry.co.uk/s/article/DNA-Matches-Split-Up-By-Parent
Once you have done that, you should start to go through your Mum's paternal matches, and look for surnames in common in their trees. You can also look at the shared matches. Initially you can put them all in a Grandpa group 1, 2 etc. If you work out they connect on a specific family you can rename the group to say 'Grandpa - Smith' or 'Grandpa - Smith & Jones'.
https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Find_Your_Unknown_Father_using_DNA
https://www.yourdnaguide.com/ydgblog/dna-testing-to-identify-a-birth-father-or-birth-mother
Brilliant thank you very much Angela x
-
I would start on Ancestry build a tree of Two, your Mum and her Mum.
Then link her DNA results to her and wait a few days.
Then go into Ancestry and look at her DNA Matches.
If you Mum’s biological Father’s other offspring have tested they will show up as a high cM match.
Go to the DNA Painter website > tools > shared cM project tool & enter each of the presented cM values, the tool shows the probability of different relationships.
A half sibling of your Mum will be about 1800cM
A half Niece / Nephew about 900cM
A half great Niece / Nephew about 450cM
Do come back if needed.
-
I would start on Ancestry build a tree of Two, your Mum and her Mum.
Then link her DNA results to her and wait a few days.
Then go into Ancestry and look at her DNA Matches.
If you Mum’s biological Father’s other offspring have tested they will show up as a high cM match.
Go to the DNA Painter website > tools > shared cM project tool & enter each of the presented cM values, the tool shows the probability of different relationships.
A half sibling of your Mum will be about 1800cM
A half Niece / Nephew about 900cM
A half great Niece / Nephew about 450cM
Do come back if needed.
Thank you Biggles that’s really helpful 😁
Angela x
-
You are welcome Angela.
If you have not read the thread linked below please do so, I did quite a write up on practical usage of a DNA test.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=863488.0
-
If you have access to 1939 register, there is a person of that name living in Brierfield. He is a widower.
There is a Family Tree too which has a photo and shows a death for him in 1956. It might be worth looking at. I searched Jos* Hay* and it brings up options.
-
If you have access to 1939 register, there is a person of that name living in Brierfield. He is a widower.
There is a Family Tree too which has a photo and shows a death for him in 1956. It might be worth looking at. I searched Jos* Hay* and it brings up options.
Thank you I’ll take a look 👍x
-
Does your mum remember anything else about the son? Rough age, was he older than her? and a name might help pinpoint a location for both father and son together.
Obviously, he might be still living so try and to these checks yourself as you can’t put living people’s details on here.
-
Also, does your mum have any half siblings… same mum but father being the man she was married to.? If one of them also takes an Ancestry DNA test, it’s easier to compare and sort out, check and make a list of them. Anything else that doesn’t match with her sibling(s) are potentially your mums paternal relatives.
In Ancestry, look at the top 5 matches that have trees… see if you recognise the names. If you do, you can add a note or colour code them as a maternal match. Ones you don’t recognise, also make a note as possible paternal match. Check how many cM they match.
You can also search the results for surname matches and open their trees and search for the home person. Sadly there are many trees which have minimal or only living people in them so you can’t see any names. If it’s a very close match, try messaging them, say you match but not sure of the connection? Don’t reveal too much as they may not want to reply!
You can ask as many questions here.
Then move on to the next 5 matches, remember the smaller the cM number the more distantly related they are!
-
You are welcome Angela.
If you have not read the thread linked below please do so, I did quite a write up on practical usage of a DNA test.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=863488.0
That was a great read, thank you. It might take a bit to sink in but it’s helped me to understand just that little bit more, I’ve definitely got a lot to learn about DNA and how to make the best of the matches. I think having in excess of 25000 matches has really overwhelmed me.
I’ve made a start on the common ancestors and will concentrate on them for mums maternal side. As for her biological father there are no common ancestors as I know nothing about him yet. I have a few matches come up with good cM levels so I’ll start there and I’ll check out the shared matches.
Thank you Angela x
-
Also, does your mum have any half siblings… same mum but father being the man she was married to.? If one of them also takes an Ancestry DNA test, it’s easier to compare and sort out, check and make a list of them. Anything else that doesn’t match with her sibling(s) are potentially your mums paternal relatives.
In Ancestry, look at the top 5 matches that have trees… see if you recognise the names. If you do, you can add a note or colour code them as a maternal match. Ones you don’t recognise, also make a note as possible paternal match. Check how many cM they match.
You can also search the results for surname matches and open their trees and search for the home person. Sadly there are many trees which have minimal or only living people in them so you can’t see any names. If it’s a very close match, try messaging them, say you match but not sure of the connection? Don’t reveal too much as they may not want to reply!
You can ask as many questions here.
Then move on to the next 5 matches, remember the smaller the cM number the more distantly related they are!
Sadly mum is the last of her generation, her half brother died last year and her half sister back in the 50’s.
I did a surname search on mums matches and Haynes is super common among them, only 1 or 2 Heys/Hayes’s so I’m leaning towards his surname was Haynes. It’s a starting point and will hopefully work out.
Thank you for your help.
Angela x
-
Just a quick question, if I have a 4th cousin 1x removed will he be mums 4th cousin?
The reason I’m asking is mums profile on Ancestry it is saying 4th cousin 1x removed too.
I’m getting confused , not that difficult where dna relationships go, so I’d better go to sleep.
Thank you in advance have a great night
Angela x
-
Yes her 4th cousin is once removed from you
Where does " it say" you are both 4th cousin 1R ?
Is there a mistake on trees or on what relationship is on the DNA match profile ?
-
Going back to reply 17 - as you know we can’t give specific info from the 1939 register
Using the name & birthdate of the daughter to get her mmn shows the parents married in 1928 & wife died 1937. Using freebmd - they also had 3 sons - the one born 1930 also died in 1937 but the other 2 were born 1932 & 1936 & had “fairly” distinctive christian names. I wondered if there was any possibility your mum could remember the name of the son she met?
If it matched one of the 2 names - it could help you to move forward - or eliminate this particular “Joe”
-
Going back to reply 17 - as you know we can’t give specific info from the 1939 register
Using the name & birthdate of the daughter to get her mmn shows the parents married in 1928 & wife died 1937. Using freebmd - they also had 3 sons - the one born 1930 also died in 1937 but the other 2 were born 1932 & 1936 & had “fairly” distinctive christian names. I wondered if there was any possibility your mum could remember the name of the son she met?
If it matched one of the 2 names - it could help you to move forward - or eliminate this particular “Joe”
I’m struggling to find this person that you've mentioned in the 1939 census ☹️ I’ve looked at loads of records but I can’t find anything….
-
If you search 1939 for the name you have and the place you should be able to find him.
Did you try the suggestion?
-
Here is someone of that name in 1911 living in Brierfield.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X4M2-BQ5
-
I think I might of found him, my mum remembered that he died at a football match, apparently he just dropped dead, so I did a search for “man dies at football match”, I must have read 7 or 8 articles and there he was Joseph William Haynes aged 53 died whilst watching Newcastle V Burnley and he lived in Brierfield. It might be a huge coincidence but I’m going to work with this and my DNA match shared matches to see if it’s correct.
Mum also thinks his son may have been called Terry or similar so if I find that name I’m probably on the right track.
This is the same person as mentioned in your last Message Heywood so thank you very much for that I’ve set mums tree to private so I can’t offend anyone and until I’m sure it’s him.
I’ve plenty to go on now so thank you everyone whose commented as always your help is very much appreciated.
Have a great weekend, I’ll let you know how I get on :)
Angela x
-
Well-done Angela
Great result
Look forward to hearing the progress
-
Look again at my reply 25. One of the sons matches your mothers “thought”
-
Look again at my reply 25. One of the sons matches your mothers “thought”
Found this entry eventually Carole and it is him so thank you very much. 👍😁