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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: genealogyem on Wednesday 26 July 23 23:55 BST (UK)
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What does it mean if the Register General of BMD published a notice for an applicant to submit evidence for the births of his children who were born before 1854?
My ancestor David Sword lived and worked in Edinburgh as an iron and brass founder. He moved away when the children were relatively young and it is unclear how much contact he had with his wife and two sons who remained in Dundee. In 1868 the following notice (transcribed below) was published in the newspaper, and then was re-published several years later in 1871 (implying that he did not submit the required evidence). Despite the re-publication, I have not been able to find any evidence that his sons births were ever registered. Approximately 5 months after the second notice was published he and his wife left Scotland. The newspaper notices have me very confused because they make it sound as if David filed the petition to register his sons but then did not want to submit the evidence that was required to fulfill the registration. Would it have been possible that his wife or sons made the request and he didnt want to support it?
Dundee Courier
Tuesday May 12 1868
Page 1
Notice
A PETITION has been presented to the Sheriff of Forfarshire at Dundee David Sword, Ironfounder, Fountainbridge Foundry, Edinburgh, and residing in Edinburgh, for warrant to the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in Scotland, to Register the Births the Petitioner's Sons, David and James, born respectively on 12th December, 1845, and 29th June, 1849; and the Sheriff-Substitute has appointed intimation of the said Petition be made at once in each of the Dundee Advertiser and Dundee Courier and Angus Newspapers, and the Petitioner to adduce evidence in support of his Petition; and parties interested to be heard, within the Sheriff Court-House, Dundee,
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Submitting the evidence would have been easy enough as both boys were documented when they were baptised. Both were born before civil registration began so why did the parents want a retrospective birth registration?
Parents were married in Dec 1844 so they weren't illegitimate. Was Elizabeth with another man while David was absent and he was trying to make sure that he was officially documented as their father?
Have you tried to find if the original petition still exists?
Debra :)
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I know based on census records and city directories that David moved to Edinburgh around 1851 so he was more than likely living with his wife when both sons were born. I have not found any evidence that David or Elizabeth were ever involved in other relationships while they were living apart, although that is still a possibility because they did live apart for nearly 20 years!
If it was as easy as providing the baptismal records, then why did he not do that? Also were retrospective birth registrations a common request?
Do you know where I would be able to find original petitions? I have been able to find baptismal record but not the birth records on ScotlandsPeople.
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Have you looked at the actual images of the baptisms? Might they be the retrospective registrations? Looking at this example for Janet HUTCHISON there is nothing in the indexing that would catch your attention as being a neglected entry.
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/register-of-neglected-entries
Debra :)
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There is actually, the first number in the reference is different from the others in Dunfermline.
Your David and James also have different numbers - 310 when all the others in Dundee start with 190 apart from a few which might also be retrospective.
Debra :)
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"Approximately 5 months after the second notice was published he and his wife left Scotland".
Where did they go?. Did sons David and James go with them?
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It might be worth sending your query to ScotlandsPeople.
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were retrospective birth registrations a common request?
Other than the Register of Neglected Entries, I have never come across anything like this before.
Where did they go when they left Scotland? Could they have been sponsored by some sort of England-based organisation or employer who required evidence that they were squeaky clean, but failed to understand that civil registration only started in 1855 in Scotland? But even if that were the case, why was it necessary to go to court to get the Registrar General to 'register' the births using information in a source held by the very same Registrar General? All very strange.
I did have a look in the NRS online catalogue but found nothing. It might be necessary to find and search the records of Dundee Sheriff court.
Take GR2's advice; ask SP.
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What does it mean if the Register General of BMD published a notice for an applicant to submit evidence for the births of his children who were born before 1854?
I read it as David Sword going to court to get a warrant to compel the Registrar General to register the births.
That is, it was instigated by David Sword, not by the Registrar General.
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were retrospective birth registrations a common request?
Other than the Register of Neglected Entries, I have never come across anything like this before.
Where did they go when they left Scotland? Could they have been sponsored by some sort of England-based organisation or employer who required evidence that they were squeaky clean, but failed to understand that civil registration only started in 1855 in Scotland? But even if that were the case, why was it necessary to go to court to get the Registrar General to 'register' the births using information in a source held by the very same Registrar General? All very strange.
I did have a look in the NRS online catalogue but found nothing. It might be necessary to find and search the records of Dundee Sheriff court.
Take GR2's advice; ask SP.
Based on my research, David and Elizabeth left Scotland in October 1871. Though I dont know the exact reason for them leaving, the most likely reason is the economic state of the William Denoon Young Company. David had been elected commissioner for them in 1870. Upon leaving the country, the company published a notice in Edinburgh Gazette seeking to find a replacement. After this I am slightly uncertain of their movement but believe that I found them in the 1881 census living in Northamptonshire. I also found an 1883 Leicestershire obituary that I believe is David.
David jr settled in the greater London area. He married Mary Fraser in Chelsea in 1868, and spent many years around the Battersea area. He died rather suddenly in Poplar in 1889, leaving his wife widowed with 6 children ranging from 15 years to 1 month old.
I dont know much about his younger brother James. I believe that he too settled in the greater London area but have not been able to find definitive proof that the person I found is him.
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In the following:
Registration of Births, Deaths, and Marriages (Scotland) Act 1860 23 & 24 Vict. c. 85
6 August 1860
There is explicit reference to Petitioning the Registrar-General by warrant viz.
"Register of Neglected Entries.
II. It shall be competent for any Person on Payment of a Fee of Five Shillings to register in a Book to be kept for the Purpose in the General Registry Office, to be called "The Register of Neglected Entries," any Birth, Death, or Marriage which shall have taken place in Scotland between the Thirty-first Day of December One thousand eight hundred and the First Day of January One thousand eight hundred and fifty-five: Provided always, that in order to such Registration there shall be produced to the Registrar General a Warrant to that Effect by the Sheriff of the County in which such Birth, Death, or Marriage occurred, to be granted upon a Petition, of which Intimation, by Advertisement or otherwise, shall be made as such Sheriff may direct, and after due Inquiry, and hearing any Parties having Interest who may appear to oppose such Petition, and which Warrant, and all written Documents produced to such Sheriff, together with his Notes, which such Sheriff is hereby required to take, of all parole Evidence adduced before him, shall be transmitted to the Registrar General, and shall be retained among the Records of his Office: Provided also, that a Copy of the Entry of any neglected Birth, Death, or Marriage which occurred subsequent to the Year One thousand eight hundred and nineteen shall be made and transmitted from the General Registry Office to the Registrar of the Parish or District in which such neglected Birth, Death, or Marriage occurred, and shall by him be recorded in such Form and Manner as the Registrar General may direct."
This act has been superseded but presumably the same mechanism of petition exists in later revisions i.e. not just for the period mentioned above.
Searching the National Records of Scotland catalogue returns three such petitions raised via the Court of Sessions all at more recent dates than 1868.
S_L
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Is this your James?
James Sword, full age, moulder
Father: David Sword, moulder
Mary Ann Paxton,
Father: Jacob Paxton, labourer
Marriage 12 Jan 1879, St. Wilfrid, Wilford, Nottinghamshire,
I'm not doing very well with any further info. There's no Sword births with mmn Paxton registered in England and Wales and Jacob Paxton isn;t obvious either