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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Leicestershire => England => Leicestershire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Ecoh on Wednesday 26 July 23 17:23 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find information about ZENAS EDMANDS who was a tanner and deceased in 1903 according to the marriage record of his son FREDERICK JAMES EDMANDS (born 06/05/1879 in Leicester) to Nellie Sells (born 1884 in Nottingham)
Frederick moved to Bradford and died in 1952 and was in the West Riding Regiment, enlisting on 11/12/1915 having served overseas. Badge number 241491. In two of the records he was Edmunds and discharged because of sickness. I have not found an enlistment which might have given more of his family details
I have tried all sorts of permutations of Edmands including Ed* but drawn a blank and wonder if anyone has any other thoughts
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what about the 1881 census entry in leicester, father shown as Joseph?
What information is on the 1879birth certificate?
What record(s) have given his birthplace? I'm unable to tally it up.
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Thanks for the suggestion Pauline
I only know of the marriage certificate of Frederick James who married in 1903 which showed Zenas as his father and deceased.
I will pursue further. Many thanks
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Try another tack, what names witnessed, what was
groom's occupation and residence at the time?
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Thanks Pauline
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There is no birth 1878-1880 in Leics for Frederick on freebmd & no marriage for a Zenas Edm*
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That is part of the mystery Carole but on 1921 Census and 1939 Register
1939 Register
10 Ann Place Flats, Bradford, Bradford C.B., Yorkshire (West Riding)
First name(s) Last name(s) Birth date Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Frederick J Edmands 06 May 1879 Male Wood Machinist Married
Frederick James Edmonds in 1921
1921 Census Of England & Wales
19, Foundry Street, Bradford, Yorkshire (West Riding), England
Frederick James Edmonds Head Male 1879 Leicester, LeicestershireCase Maker Goddall Hatton Ltd J Smith & Sons Ltd
George Frederick Edmonds Son Male 1905 Bradford Doffer Spinning
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They also had a son Harold Edward b 1908 Bradford died 1976 Keighley
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Yes, found all that, but need to look at the mystery of Zenas!
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In cases like these, where someone's past seems shrouded in mystery, I often find that there is illegitimacy involved, so Frederick may not have even been registered under Edm?nds. Similarly, his father may not have actually been Zenas, although it would be an odd one to make up. Having said that, I have seen illegitimate children/women who have had illegitimate children come up with some really interesting names on certificates.
Queenie :)
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Just investigation Joseph and family to see if I can link them, but thanks Queenie for the thoughts
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Ecoh, Trying to build a picture of the family. I take it that Nelly/Nellie & Frederick went their own ways after the birth of Harold in 1908 as by 1911 she is living with an Albert Edward Saper and by sq 1910 had a son with him as below
RAPER, THOMAS ALBERT RAPER mmn SELLS
GRO Reference: 1910 S Quarter in BRADFORD Volume 09B Page 100
John
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Thanks John
Nellie Sells
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
RAPER, THOMAS ALBERT RAPER SELLS
In the 1911 Census she is housekeeper to Albert Edward Raper who is head of the household and with them are her 4 children George, Doris, Harold, Thomas all named Edmonds (perhaps for respectability
I can’t fine Frederick James in the 1911 Census (yet)
In 1921 Frederick James - the husband of Nellie is living with his son George Frederick
And in the1921 census she is living with her daughter Doris (which says father dead) but Nellie her mother is married
Where was Frederick James in 1911, but equally important is his father Zenas who does not seem to exist and with out the birth details for Frederick J we can’t get a birth certificate easily. Sheila
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Fred Edmands was age 32 and the head of the household when they appeared in the 1911 UK Census on 2 Apr 1911 at Back Hallfield Place in Bradford He was with Violet White -both married and her two Children
He was a painter and born in Coventry - onward and upward!
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Fred Edmands was age 32 and the head of the household when they appeared in the 1911 UK Census on 2 Apr 1911 at Back Hallfield Place in Bradford He was with Violet White -both married and her two Children
He was a painter and born in Coventry - onward and upward!
Whilst I agree with this being your Fred/Frederick in 1911, the Annie and 2 children is not Violet.
Annie Elizabeth Harvey married an Ernest White in sq 1899. They had 2 daughters Mary Ellen 1901 & Ruth Lillian in 1904.
By 1921 census Annie & her 2 daughters are back in Nottingham living in the household of an Alfred Newsome.
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Violey Emilee/Emily Chapman born 1876 Bradford married Frederick William Smith jq 1898. They appear together in 1901/1911 census (no children).
Violet E Smith died aged 82 in Bradford in 1958
John
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Yes absolutely John, but still no nearer to Zenas! Sheila
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I cannot myself make any break through re Zenas. Wish you well in your research.
John
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Have you looked at Fred Sheen, born circa May 1879, son of Zenas & Eliza Sheen?
Zenas Sheen was a currier ( tanning industry) in Leicester.
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Thanks to all, definitely going to look at Fred Sheen as Zenas was a tanner! Sheila
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Fred Sheen was baptised 12th Jan 1881 aged at the time 18 months parents Zenas/Eliza, abode 7, Dover Square, occ of Zenas "Currier"
John
amended baptism date.
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Also a Willy Sheen baptised 12 January 1881 parents and abode and occ same as Fred.
John
Births Dec 1880
SHEEN Willie Leicester 7a
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Fred Sheen was baptised 12th Jan 1871
1881 !
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Zenas, Eliza, Fred and Willie Sheen are at 7 Dover Square, Leicester, in the 1881 census. Fred shown as born in London.
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In 1891 Fred Sheen (aged 11, born Leicester) is with his half-sister Elizabeth and her husband Ewbank Cade.
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Zenas Sheen's second wife Eliza died in 1890. He is in the workhouse in 1891, occupation fellmonger (dealer in hides and skins).
He's still in the workhouse in 1901 - fellmonger seems to have been mistranscribed by the enumerator as fishmonger. He dies in 1902.
Where is Fred in 1901?
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Ewbank Cade was an employed shoe maker. One of the shoe manufacturers in Leicester at that time was a George Edmands...I wonder if Ewbank worked at the Edmands factory.
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ShaunJ, I think you are onto the right family. If I'm on the right lines then Zenas 1st married Sarah Stephenson sq 1860 in Melton Mowbray and appear together in 1861 census. By 1871 census Zenas is recorded as James aged 40 and occupation Currier. Sarah dies aged 38 in 1876.
Zenas remarries Elizabeth Sheen sq 1878.
Zenas Sheens birth is c 1831 according to census.
Cannot view original image but a transcript on FindMyPast records a baptism/birth of a TENES Sheen male 1828 Birth place Independent,Narborough,Leicester,England Parents Benjamin Hill & Ann Hill.
John
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1841 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQYK-R37
1851 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGFQ-1WR
John
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Fred Sheen's brother Willie/Willy recorded in 1891 as Thomas William Sheen. In 1901 reverts to William Sheen
He marries as Thomas William Sheen 1st January 1906 to Annie Ward, recording his father as Zenas Sheen deceased. On 1911/21 census as Thomas William Sheen and 1939 register as William.
John
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I'm wondering if Zenas married his widowed sister in law?
1881 - Eliza Sheen b Whetstone c1844
1871 - Eliza Sheen b Whetstone c1851 is married to an Amos Sheen b Cosby c 1843
Marriage appears to b 1870 - Amos Sheen and Eliza Haines. There's an ELiza Haines b Whetstone c1844
1851 - Amos b c1843 in Cosby has older brother Zenas
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Still doesn;t explain the Edmonds surname!
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Burials at Welford Road cemetery, plot uQ 1756 (all addresses bar the workhouse were in St Margaret ward)
SHEEN BENJAMIN ALBERT 1866 DEC 9 17MTHS NEW PARLIAMENT STREET
SHEEN HARRIET 1868 OCT 3 5MTHS BELGRAVE GATE
SHEEN CLARA ANNIE 1869 SEP 3 1MTH PARLIAMENT STREET
SHEEN CLARA 1873 JUL 30 5WKS NEW PARLIAMENT STREET
SHEEN FREDERICK CHARLES 1875 JUN 10 4 LITTLE THAMES STREET
SHEEN SARAH 1876 MAR 8 38 LITTLE THAMES STREET
SHEEN ZENAS 1902 SEP 27 73 THE WORKHOUSE LEICESTER
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Obit in the Leicester Chronicle, 21 June 1890
"On the 16 inst, at 8, Halls Cottages, Navigation St, Eliza, wife of Mr Zenas Sheen, aged 43"
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Eliza's grave, plot uP 452 at Welford Rd:
MOORE JOHN GEORGE 1860 MAY 17 2WKS DUKE STREET SAINT MARY
SHEEN ALBERT 1882 OCT 28 5WKS NAVIGATION STREET SAINT MARGARET
SHEEN BEN 1888 JUN 20 1MTH NAVIGATION STREET SAINT MARGARET
SHEEN ELIZA 1890 JUN 19 43 NAVIGATION STREET SAINT MARGARET
LEIGH HERBERT HENRY 1912 APR 13 51 GENERAL INFIRMARY LEICESTER
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I love this website! It is so exciting getting suggestions.
In another family I searched, the couple moved from the Midlands to Scarborough and their surname changed on the way. The friend I did worked with surmised that maybe there was debt, they were escaping something etc.
Maybe the son of Zenas who arrived in Bradford via Nottingham where he got married, changed his name at the time he met and married Nellie. Perhaps because his father was in the workhouse
I did find the Leicester Chronicle obit
Many thanks to all. Sheila
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There were several Sheen admissions to the workhouse.
8 Aug 1890; Frederick Sheen, age 11, and William Sheen, age 9, sons of Zenas. Zenas, age 60, was admitted with them. I guess the family couldn't manage without mum.
Zenas then has the following admissions; mistranscribed on 2 occasions as Lenas or Zenns, but all say "transferred (or returned) from Thurnby"
14 Sept 1895
24 aug 1896
17 Jul 1897
5 Aug 1898
14 Oct 1899
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Leic Cottage Homes was where the workhouse children were sent from the 1880s onwards.
22 Aug 1890; William Sheen age 9, and Albert Sheen age 4, were admitted from the workhouse to the cottage homes. Their religion was given as "chapel" (as was the case on the workhouse admission, although Zenas's subsequent admissions were "CofE".
They spent the rest of their childhood there.
William was discharged on 31 Jan 1896 to Mr Gunby, farmer, Cosby. (William was with the Gunby family in 1901, a farm servant).
Albert was discharged on 19 Oct 1901 to an unnamed aunt in Blaby.
I'll look for more workhouse details for Zenas and Frederick now.
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OK, this is a bit cconfusing because Frederick was transferred to the cottage homes on the same date as William and Albert, but I can't see his admission there, nor Albert's admission to the workhouse. I don't think they're the same child with the wrong name, as the ages are different.
Zenas's discharge dates, to match up to the admission ones:
7 Sept 1895
17 Oct 1896
10 July 1897
29 Oct 1898
7 Oct 1899
-- all the above except 1897 were "to Thurnby by invitation of Mr Cooper".
23 sept 1902 - deceased
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Zenas's occupation on his workhouse admissions in 1890, 95 and 96 has been transcribed as "farmer". Initially I assumed this was a mistranscription, but perhaps he actually worked on a farm with or for Mr Cooper at Thurnby.
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ShaunJ, I think you are onto the right family. If I'm on the right lines then Zenas 1st married Sarah Stephenson sq 1860 in Melton Mowbray and appear together in 1861 census. By 1871 census Zenas is recorded as James aged 40 and occupation Currier. Sarah dies aged 38 in 1876.
Zenas remarries Elizabeth Sheen sq 1878.
Zenas Sheens birth is c 1831 according to census.
Cannot view original image but a transcript on FindMyPast records a baptism/birth of a TENES Sheen male 1828 Birth place Independent,Narborough,Leicester,England Parents Benjamin Hill & Ann Hill.
John
The Leic FHS noncon CD gives several Sheen baptisms, but no Zenas or indeed Tenes. The closest I can see is James, bapt 12 July 1829 at the Presby/independent chapel at Narborough; abode Littlethorpe. Parents Benjamin and Ann (nee Hill, father John Hill) as per post above.
There were several other children to these parents and I can give details if wanted.
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Cannot view original image but a transcript on FindMyPast records a baptism/birth of a TENES Sheen male 1828 Birth place Independent,Narborough,Leicester,England Parents Benjamin Hill & Ann Hill.
John
The original looks like Zenes to me, 18 May 1828. Cannot post images on this board, they are on Ancestry.
Debra :)
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Duh, yes I can.
https://postimg.cc/jncjb5LS
Debra :)
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Try another tack, what names witnessed, what was
groom's occupation and residence at the time?
Was this one (re Fred's 1903 marriage record) answered?
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Zenas a tanner deceased was on the marriage certificate of Frederick James Edmands who was born in 1879 and married Nellie Sells in Nottingham in 1903. They moved to Bradford, but I do not know the witness names
Volume 7B
Marriage quarter 4
Volume as transcribed 7B
Marriage year 1903
Page number 589
As for the Zenas Sheen marriages Find My Past does not give that detail unless its a parish marriage
Sheila
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I've found the 1903 marriage record now. He was a Door Keeper of Mount Street, Nottingham. Witnesses Arthur Lake and Gertrude Sells.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/241898835:61840
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There was more than one Arthur Lake in Nottingham but looking at the signatures on the 1911 census, this one would appear to be a window cleaner whose wife Florence and two of his children (Percy circa 1896 and Kate circa 1898) were all born in Leicester. Married circa 1892/3.
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Still doesn;t explain the Edmonds surname!
Edmands.
If, as seems likely, Fred Sheen moved away from Leicester and changed his name to Edmands, it was presumably because he was running away from something and didn't want to be found. Was he running from the police perhaps?
There was a police sergeant in Leicester by the name of Charles Edmands - perhaps he borrowed the policeman's name?
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A bit more about Arthur - he was a bill poster (inspector?) at the Theatre Royal in Leicester in 1891 and then a bill poster in Nottingham in 1901 where he was living quite close to the Nottingham Theatre Royal. Perhaps that is how they met if Frederick was a door keeper.
Debra :)
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I think that is is a very likely hypothesis!
Ewbank Cade appeared in the newspapers a lot for D&D
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Wildcard ;D
Can anyone find this man before or after 1901 census.
Fred Le Burns Boarder Single Male 24 1877 Doorman Southampton, Hampshire, England
Piece number 262
Folio 95
Page 22
Full address Circus, 5, St Botolph Without Aldgate, City of London, London & Middlesex, England
John
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Can anyone find this man before or after 1901 census.
Fred Le Burns Boarder Single Male 24 1877 Doorman Southampton, Hampshire, England
Looks more like Fred L Burns.
Probably the Frederick Burns from Southampton in the 1911 and 1921 censuses in Stonebridge Park, Willesden (a hotel porter, and then a barman).
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Leic Cottage Homes was where the workhouse children were sent from the 1880s onwards.
22 Aug 1890; William Sheen age 9, and Albert Sheen age 4, were admitted from the workhouse to the cottage homes. Their religion was given as "chapel" (as was the case on the workhouse admission, although Zenas's subsequent admissions were "CofE".
They spent the rest of their childhood there.
William was discharged on 31 Jan 1896 to Mr Gunby, farmer, Cosby. (William was with the Gunby family in 1901, a farm servant).
Albert was discharged on 19 Oct 1901 to an unnamed aunt in Blaby.
I'll look for more workhouse details for Zenas and Frederick now.
1901. I've found an Albert Sheen in the Leic cottage homes, age 15, and listed as a "shoemaker" (they were put to apprenticeships so several of the young people have trades).
He's on the return in the cottage home in 1891 too, listed as "inmate" (as they all were). Also there was Thomas William Sheen, age 10, but there's no sign of Frederick.
ETA - 0f course, Shaun has already found him with Ewbank and Elizabeth Cade in 1891
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Leic Daily Post, 4 Feb 1893 -- Messrs Johnson and Goodwin, letterpress printers, were fined for employing young people without the relevant paperwork. One of those youngsters was Fred Sheen.
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I'm wondering if Zenas married his widowed sister in law?
1881 - Eliza Sheen b Whetstone c1844
1871 - Eliza Sheen b Whetstone c1851 is married to an Amos Sheen b Cosby c 1843
Marriage appears to b 1870 - Amos Sheen and Eliza Haines. There's an ELiza Haines b Whetstone c1844
1851 - Amos b c1843 in Cosby has older brother Zenas
Believe you are quite right Mabel
(1) SHEEN, ALBERT HAINES (died aged 0 in 1882)
GRO Reference: 1882 J Quarter in LEICESTER Volume 07A Page 209
(2) SHEEN, ALBERT HAINES
GRO Reference: 1886 J Quarter in LEICESTER Volume 07A Page 229
(2) Married 1907, Elsie Kenney. No children in 1911 & Albert a widower by 1921
Married 1923 Doris M James. Doris M (May) Sheen a widow in 1939 dob 1896
Albert died 1938.
John
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Thomas Henry Sheen 1861 names his nok as Zenas Sheen on attestation papers on 28.5. 1879.
Married Catherine Emma Warner 17th November 1889. Father transcribed as LEVAS Sheen.
Appears on 1891/1901/11/21 census 1939 war register and dies 1946
Does not appear to have had children re 1911 census.
John
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Just to round off
STEPHENSON, ELIZABETH SHEEN -
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in LEICESTER Volume 07A Page 188
John
Still a mystery re Edmands surname though!!
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Normal procedure when a young man is missing from the 1901 census is to check the Boer War military records. Not seeing any obvious candidates there though!
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Fred SHEEN was born May 6,1879 to Eliza SHEEN (nee Haines) and Zenas,a currier, at 2 Little Thames Street,Leicester.
Quite a coincidence!
Looks good,Shaun and John !
Maureen
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Fred SHEEN was born May 6,1879 to Eliza SHEEN (nee Haines) and Zenas,a currier, at 2 Little Thames Street,Leicester.
Quite a coincidence!
Looks good,Shaun and John !
Maureen
Maureen, what record confirms that dob please.
John
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Hi John,
Sorry-it's from the GRO website.
I know I shouldn't have but it cost less than a cup of coffee!
Maureen
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Maureen, that was very generous of you and is the icing on the cake for this post. Well done you, have a real coffee on me :)
John
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Thank you so much,John.
I was afraid someone would "call me out' on doing that.
Best,
Maureen
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Well that clinches it. Thank you Maureen in NY !
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Well that clinches it. Thank you Maureen in NY !
It was your unfailing instincts that started this whole thing,Shaun!
Maureen
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Zenas Sheen was the only Zenas in Leicester in the 19th century. So that was a big clue !
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Well thank you all for researching so much. It is wonderful the time you have put in. Sheila