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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: SOFEE on Sunday 16 July 23 15:50 BST (UK)
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hi
can anyone help with further information on my great great grand parents please?
the only info I have is on the birth record of their son in Sorn Ayrshire ( CH3/409/2 416 )Irvine Relief... which I have quoted below
quote
"Robert natural son of Robert Hood collier Hunterfield, Gorebridge, near Edinburgh & Elizabeth Watters, Stanecastle Gate, near Irvine. was born 15th December past (1853) and baptised twenty-fifth instant (June 1854) "
the son Robert married in 1876 (644.10 180)....Both parents were marked as deceased .
I dont know if Elizabeth and Robert married? the minister hasn't used the words "lawful son or
daughter" for anyone on the church record book most just say son or daughter but in Roberts case
it does say "natural" son... I also noticed at the top where the record number is it says Irvine Relief
is that something like poor relief ?? can someone explain that to me too?
as regards census records so far I've only managed to get the son Robert on the 1881.1891.1901 staying in New Keppochhill road Glasgow.. I've a couple more in my shoebox that at first sight look like they may him but the occupations just dont fit (I know people change jobs) or grandparents have wrong surnames?? anything anyone can add to any of the above I'd be most grateful
thanks
sofee
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Robert is certainly illegitimate. It would be worth looking to see if there are kirk session minutes for Irvine, which might give further details. The Relief Kirk was an additional church built to supplement the accommodation in the parish kirk.
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Here is a possible for Elizabeth Waters in 1851 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59027a9de9379091b11b8fa1/eliz-waters-1851-ayrshire-ayr-1837-?locale=en
And a wee picture
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stanecastlegatehouse.JPG
1841
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a141e5df4040b9d6e078845/elizabeth-waters-1841-ayrshire-dundonald-1837-?locale=en
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Robert is certainly illegitimate. It would be worth looking to see if there are kirk session minutes for Irvine, which might give further details. The Relief Kirk was an additional church built to supplement the accommodation in the parish kirk.
hi GR2
Thanks for that info ...I'm not sure how to go about getting kirk session minutes for Irvine anyone any ideas please?
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Here is a possible for Elizabeth Waters in 1851 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59027a9de9379091b11b8fa1/eliz-waters-1851-ayrshire-ayr-1837-?locale=en
And a wee picture
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stanecastlegatehouse.JPG
1841
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a141e5df4040b9d6e078845/elizabeth-waters-1841-ayrshire-dundonald-1837-?locale=en
Wow!!!! Neale1961 I think you've got her!! the son Robert went on to have a fair sized family but his first son has the middle name Torrance so that would fir with your findings eh? great picture too
how did you get that so quick ? lol ;D Ive been searching years . thanks so much i really appreciate that thanks
sofee :-*
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Unfortunately, I could see no kirk sessions in Irvine for the date of your interest.
The middle name Torrence is a very good sign however, so those census records look good for the mother then. :)
Added - i am currently working on a tiny screen. When i get back to my laptop, i will look further for you. Someone else will probably come along with more info before that. :D
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Unfortunately, I could see no kirk sessions in Irvine for the date of your interest.
The middle name Torrence is a very good sign however, so those census records look good for the mother then. :)
Yes the name Torrance looks A VERY good sign and those census records you got look spot on.
no sign of a marriage to Robert Hood after child born in 1853 couldnt find the child Robert in 1861 or 1871 or of his father Robert ....maybe he didnt stay around?
thanks again Neale1961 i appreciate your time helping me out
sofee
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Jean Torrance born 1804 Kilmarnock daughter of James Torrnce and Elizabeth Barclay.
Jean Torrence married John Waters in 1825 in Irvine.
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Jean Torrance born 1804 Kilmarnock daughter of James Torrnce and Elizabeth Barclay.
Jean Torrence married John Waters in 1825 in Irvine.
your on the ball today Neale that sounds fab...i noticed in those census records in 1851 my Elizabeth was 14 so she gave birth to her son Robert 1853 she would be 16yrs ...I know Census records aren't always accurate with ages or years of birth...I'll see if i can get the records that match your findings on Scotland's people
thanks again :-*
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Finding the father Robert Hood is a bit more difficult but I will just note this possible census and look again later
1851 Robert Hood (Collier) living in Riccarton
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59027b88e9379091b11f4b5f/robert-hood-1851-ayrshire-ayr-1825-?locale=en
Added - this Robert Hood was the father of an illegitimate child previously.
https://www.scottishindexes.com/courtentry.aspx?courtid=7002026
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Finding the father Robert Hood is a bit more difficult but I will just note this possible census and look again later
1851 Robert Hood (Collier) living in Riccarton
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59027b88e9379091b11f4b5f/robert-hood-1851-ayrshire-ayr-1825-?locale=en
Im not so sure about that one ? its possible...theres loads of Robert HOODS and many are colliers
I know this can go for nothing on the son Robert b 1853 on his marriage records he has his father as a civil engineer,? big jump in occupation from coallier eh? lol
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I think ive found Elizabeth Berkley Watters birth cert, 14th oct 1936 father john watters sailor halfway near Irvine mother Jean Torrance mother (Other Church Registers Baptisms CH3/409/2 340 IRVINE RELIEF) Page 340 of 418 1836
also have above Elizabeth Berkley Watters marrying Robert Montgomery 1857 (Statutory registers Marriages 595/ 27) 1857so now i have to find a Robert hood staying with Montgomery family i do have a few grandchildren saying with grandparents so i'll go check them out see if i can get Census records
i couldnt have got this far without you Neale i much appreciate your help
thanks again
sofee
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Elizabeth Berkley Watters marrying Robert Montgomery 1857 (Statutory registers Marriages 595/ 27)
That all looks good Sofee
Children:
Elizabeth Barclay Montgomery - born 1858 Dalry
John Montgomery – born 1860 Dalry
Walter Montgomery – born 1862 Kilmarnock
Montgomery family living at Shawhill Farm, Riccarton in 1861 census. But the son Robert Hood is not there with his mother.
Elizabeth Barkley (Watters) Montgomery died 1862 Kilmarnock – probably due to birth of son Walter.
Her widower husband Robert then married Agnes Park.
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Robert Hood married in 1876
Do you have this marriage certificate?
What is recorded as his occupation?
Who were the witnesses at the marriage?
What is his address?
I see in the 1881 / 1891 / 1901 census that he was a coach maker / railway carriage maker.
So he would have served an apprenticeship – as that was skilled work.
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1871 census Irvine High Street Ancestry transcription (always questionable)
Robert Torrance 65 born Kilwinning, waiter domestic serv
John Torrance 63 born Howden (should read Loudon), labourer
Robert Hood 46 nephew – apprentice carpenter B….? (don't recognise that B--- word)
There appears to be numerous errors in this transcription. When you look at the index entry for this census on ScotlandsPeople - Robert Hood is age 16 – the correct age for your man.
Apprenticeship as a carpenter would allow him to progress to coach building etc.
1871 census for Irvine (ref 595/ 5/ 18) From ScotlandsPeople
Robert Torrance - age 46
John Torrance - age 63
Robert Hood - age 16
This Robert Torrance born 1822 Kilwinning was the son of James Torrance and Elizabeth Barclay – therefore the younger brother of Jean Torrance who married John Watters.
In 1851 census he is working as a footman at Eglinton Castle
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59027ad2e9379091b11c6058/robert-torrence-1851-ayrshire-ayr-1823-?locale=en
The John Torrance is the one who appears on the 1851 census I posted in reply #2.
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There is this 1861 census entry on Scotlands People
HOOD ROBERT
1861 M age 4
586/ 1/ 31 DALMELLINGTON AYR
I cannot see it on Ancestry - but it seems a possible for your Robert.
I know the age is not quite right, but did his guardians know his correct age?
Sofee, you might need to spend some credits on these census records from SP to get the full picture.
I would start with the 1871 census (as posted directly above) and find out what it really says for that Robert Hood - I feel quite certain that he is your Robert. :)
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Thinking …….
Elizabeth Torrance (nee Barclay) died Kilwinning 1858 (age 78) mother’s name Cowan
- I wonder if she might have been looking after young Robert Hood up to her death? – and then he was under the care of her unmarried sons / Robert’s uncles.
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Just to fill in a bit more information:
Children of John WATTERS and Jean TORRANCE
James WATERS bapt 1828 Dundonald
Jean WATTERS born June 1832 Irvine Relief
John WATTERS born July 1834 Irvine Relief
Elizabeth Barklay WATTERS born Oct 1836 Irvine Relief
Andrew WATTERS born Oct 1839 Irvine Relief
Margaret WATTERS born April 1842 Irvine Relief
Adam WATTERS born Oct 1844 Irvine Relief
William Torrance WATTERS born Sept 1850 Irvine Relief
1851 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59027a41e9379091b11a1b39/andrew-waters-1851-ayrshire-ayr-1840-?locale=en
Jane (Jean) TORRANCE / WATERS died 1866 Irvine (mother’s name Barclay) – age 64.
John Watters, the sailor, is notable by his absence from the family in any census. :-\
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... I also noticed at the top where the record number is it says Irvine Relief
is that something like poor relief ?? can someone explain that to me too?
Regarding the Irvine Relief Church – some information here:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=367866.0
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Elizabeth Berkley Watters marrying Robert Montgomery 1857 (Statutory registers Marriages 595/ 27)
That all looks good Sofee
Children:
Elizabeth Barclay Montgomery - born 1858 Dalry
John Montgomery – born 1860 Dalry
Walter Montgomery – born 1862 Kilmarnock
Montgomery family living at Shawhill Farm, Riccarton in 1861 census. But the son Robert Hood is not there with his mother.
Elizabeth Barkley (Watters) Montgomery died 1862 Kilmarnock – probably due to birth of son Walter.
Her widower husband Robert then married Agnes Park.
I just got all that this morning too thanks..... actually Elizabeth age 26 died of typhoid fever two months after giving birth to Walter. then that poor wee soul died at only 9 months old in troon at grandparents ... i think cause was a convulsion that lasted 15mins. i also got Robert Montgomery and Agnes Park both widows marriage certificate ...all thanks to you ...you started the ball rolling with that first bit of information you gave me ...I so appreciate all your time helping me .
big thanks
sofee :-*
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Robert Hood married in 1876
Do you have this marriage certificate?
What is recorded as his occupation?
Who were the witnesses at the marriage?
What is his address?
I see in the 1881 / 1891 / 1901 census that he was a coach maker / railway carriage maker.
So he would have served an apprenticeship – as that was skilled work.
Yes I do have the son Roberts marriage cert. he married
Margaret Dunn a widow on 28 july 1876
@46 Houldsworth, Glasgow Anderston, Lanarkshire,
address 5 Belgrove St. Glasgow
his occupation coachmaker
his Father Robert Hoods Occupation Civil Engineer
witnesses were Campbell Zelt? cant make his name out and Elizabeth Lockhead was the other witness
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I see in the 1881 / 1891 / 1901 census that he was a coach maker / railway carriage maker.
So he would have served an apprenticeship – as that was skilled work.
yes thats all correct I have the info on those census records too . I'm sure he must have done his apprenticeship for a job coachmaker journeyman but im not sure if there would be records back then of apprentices etc like there are today Neale?
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Added - this Robert Hood was the father of an illegitimate child previously.
https://www.scottishindexes.com/courtentry.aspx?courtid=7002026
I just saw this Neale...hmmm thats interesting.....
I found a couple of possibles for Robert Hood one of which he was born in Ireland ...I cant find it again im still searching ::)...I got my DNA done and I'm 26% Irish the only other ancestor I've come across so far thats Irish is Margaret Dunn who married the son of Robert Hood & Elizabeth Watters ...I'll keep you posted if i find any more on that Robert Hood Neale
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Sofee, this is another possibility for Robert Hood in 1851:
Alexander Hood 52 coal miner
Ephemin Hood 47
John Hood 20 coal miner
Robert Hood 18 coal miner b. Newton Midlothian
Esablla Mood 17
Elisbeth Mood 16
William Mood 14 coal miner
Enphame Hood 9
Agnes Hood 7
Catherine Mood 4
Robert James 77 Visitor
Robert Mitchill 21 Lodger
Address Arniston Engine, Arniston, Midlothian.
Monica
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Although the Robert above in his 1851 census entry showed as born in Midlothian, 1841 shows him as born outside the county. This could be his birth & christening details:
Robert Hood
Birth Date 12 Jun 1832
Baptism Date 29 Jul 1832
Baptism Place Carnbee, Fife, Scotland
Father Alexander Hood
Mother Euphemia Innes
There are possible entries in the US showing this family, indicating that at least Robert left for the US before 1858.
A marriage in Illinois for this Robert to a Teresa Mary Ann Vivian on 18 Sep 1858 in Mcdonough, Illinois.
1870 (see link on page) and 1880 US census entries for him and family in Illinois www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MXJJ-XPT
He died in 1882 www.findagrave.com/memorial/150431990/robert-hood
His mother, Euphemia, in 1874 www.findagrave.com/memorial/165884973/euphema-hood
Monica
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The big question though, is he the correct Robert Hood ???
Monica
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Although the Robert above in his 1851 census entry showed as born in Midlothian, 1841 shows him as born outside the county. This could be his birth & christening details:
Robert Hood
Birth Date 12 Jun 1832
Baptism Date 29 Jul 1832
Baptism Place Carnbee, Fife, Scotland
Father Alexander Hood
Mother Euphemia Innes
There are possible entries in the US showing this family left for the US before 1858.
A marriage in Illinois for this Robert to a Teresa Mary Ann Vivian on 18 Sep 1858 in Mcdonough, Illinois.
1870 (see link on page) and 1880 US census entries for him and family in Illinois.
He died in 1882 www.findagrave.com/memorial/150431990/robert-hood
His mother, Euphemia, in 1874 www.findagrave.com/memorial/165884973/euphema-hood
Monica
thanks for that info Monica I dont think this my Robert Hood very much doubt they went to US. but you never know. I've put that info in my possibles box (its getting fuller by the day lol)
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Alexander Hood 52 coal miner
Ephemin Hood 47
John Hood 20 coal miner
Robert Hood 18 coal miner b. Newton Midlothian
Esablla Mood 17
Elisbeth Mood 16
William Mood 14 coal miner
Enphame Hood 9
Agnes Hood 7
Catherine Mood 4
Robert James 77 Visitor
Robert Mitchill 21 Lodger
Address Arniston Engine, Arniston, Midlothian.
I've had this one in my "possibles" for a good few months I'm sure this is the area/colliery is quite near Hunterfield, Gorebridge, Midlothian,where the minister wrote where Robert the father came from on the birth record for son Robert Hood .
there is a man who has written a very good article on the history of coal mining and how the Hood family were greatly involved hes also done a genealogy of the Hoods but he was unsure if at all my Robert was one of them..I'm still studying his findings heres the link if your interested at all Monica
https://hoodfamily.info/hood/hood.html
thanks again for that info the cock pen Robert Hood is defo on my possibles list I appreciate the time youve put into trying to help me solve the Robert Hood problem lol
sofee
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quote
"Robert natural son of Robert Hood collier Hunterfield, Gorebridge, near Edinburgh...."
I would suggest that this Robert may well lead you to the correct Robert.
His father, Alexander Hood, died in late December 1858 from a mining accident. His burial details here www.findagrave.com/memorial/201564126/alexander-harper-hood
Accident details:
Alexander Hood
Death 2 Dec 1858 Dalkeith, Mid Lothian
Occupation Collier
Colliery Arniston
Owner John Christie
Notes Fall of roof at face of workings. 2 killed.
On father Alexander's death registration, his residence is noted as Hunterfield (as showing in the paternity action against Robert Hood).
Monica
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quote
"Robert natural son of Robert Hood collier Hunterfield, Gorebridge, near Edinburgh...."
I would suggest that this Robert may well lead you to the correct Robert.
His father, Alexander Hood, died in late December 1858 from a mining accident. His burial details here www.findagrave.com/memorial/201564126/alexander-harper-hood
Accident details:
Alexander Hood
Death 2 Dec 1858 Dalkeith, Mid Lothian
Occupation Collier
Colliery Arniston
Owner John Christie
Notes Fall of roof at face of workings. 2 killed.
On father Alexander's death registration, his residence is noted as Hunterfield (as showing in the paternity action against Robert Hood).
Monica
Hi Monica
thats looking very interesting indeed where you manage to get your info amazes me everyone on here is so knowledgeable now you said "his residence is noted as Hunterfield (as showing in the paternity action against Robert Hood)". Huntersfield is in Midlothian and Hurlford is where the paternity suit Robert was which is a village in East Ayrshire, according to google. so two different places 66miles between them one almost on eastcoast one almost on west coast. btw Ive paid to get the paternity document with more details etc
sofee
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the only info I have is on the birth record of their son in Sorn Ayrshire ( CH3/409/2 416 )Irvine Relief... which I have quoted below
quote
"Robert natural son of Robert Hood collier Hunterfield, Gorebridge, near Edinburgh & Elizabeth Watters, Stanecastle Gate, near Irvine. was born 15th December past (1853) and baptised twenty-fifth instant (June 1854) "
I am confused ::) The quote above is what you posted in your opening post. This you mention is from the Old Parish Register entry following Robert Jnr's birth and his baptism six months later.
From this entry in the OPRs, Robert Hood is shown as a collier from Hunterfield, Gorebridge, near Edinburgh and Elizabeth from Stanecastle Gate, near Irvine.
This is the why I was making the reference to Hunterfield.
Hurlford has only come on the link that Neale added earlier from 1851 www.scottishindexes.com/courtentry.aspx?courtid=7002026 highlighting a similar name and occupation. No indication so far that this Robert is linked to the Robert Snr in the OPRs in 1854 for your Robert Jnr.
Monica
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Sofee, I see Monica has posted some good leads regarding Robert Hood collier of Hunterfield, Gorebridge, near Edinburgh - and could be the one you are looking for.
In the 1861 census this Hood family is living in Hunterfield, although the 2 oldest boys, John and Robert appear to have left for the USA. The rest of the family follow them in 1864.
This is them in 1841
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a1517fbf4040b9d6e23cf5f/robert-hood-1841-midlothian-duddingston-1832-?locale=en
I only posted Robert Hood in Hurlford as a preliminary possibility - don't let him be a red herring.
On closer inspection, he stays within the Kilmarnock area for his entire life, and does not appear to have a connection with Hunterfield.
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Sofee, It is quite probable that Robert Hood junior never knew his father - he only knew his name - and so he would make up any occupation for him on his marriage record.
I wouldn't take the "civil engineer" bit too seriously.
It was fairly normal for illegitimate children to be raised by the maternal side of the family.
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A couple of other items:
1. In my reply #14, I give details of the Robert Hood (junior) age 16 living with his Torrance uncles, in 1871.
If you get that census from Scotlands People – could you please post the details.
2. Jane (Jean) TORRANCE / WATERS died 1866 Irvine (mother’s name Barclay) – age 64. (see my reply #16) Does her death cert say if her husband John was alive or dead?
The only record I can find for John Waters, sailor is in the 1861 census. He is listed as:
John Waters, able seaman, age 55, married, born Irvine Ayrshire, working onboard ‘City of Manchester’.
(Most of the men working onboard appear to have been born in Irvine)
3. A suggestion to just use the green REPLY button rather than quote and re-post a great deal of information previous posted and already read, as this can create a thread which is cumbersome to negotiate.
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A bit more detail for the Torrence family:-
James TORRENCE married 12/12/1800 Riccarton to Elisabeth BARCLAY
Children baptised:
• James 14/6/1801 Riccarton
• Jean 1/5/1804 Kilmarnock
• John 11/9/1807 Kilmarnock
• Andrew 27/1/1811 Loudoun
• Adam 14/11/1813 Loudon
• William 19/10/1818 Kilwinning
• Robert 25/9/1822 Kilwinning
1841 census for Elizabeth (Barclay) Torrence – Kilwinning
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a142004f4040b9d6e09759f/john-torrence-1841-ayrshire-kilwinning-1811-?locale=en
Redburn Gate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Redburn_Gate_-_Eglinton_Estate.jpg
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Hi Monica & Neale
wow thats a lot of information...I've studied all your findings and after thinking "no" about the Robert Hood family that went to U.S. I think your right, regarding that... just shows you shouldn't right things off too quickly.
sorry about the confusion earlier on it was me who picked up wrongly i thought you meant the Robert Hood in the paternity case and Alexander Hoods Son were one in the same but I read it wrongly hence I confused Monica and myself regards the Hurlford and hunterfield i thought you thought they were one in the same . also me clicking on the quote each time i answered i thought i was doing good making the relevant post to te quotes but instead i just caused confussion...as if this isnt all so confusing as it is lol...you have booth come up trumps for me regarding my great great grandparents ...also the "civil Engineer" i think theres been either its been conjure up in son Roberts imagination or someone has read the info wrong over the years perhaps Coal Engine Keeper or even the place his family lived called Arniston Engine could have mistakenly been read as Civil Engineer? I guess well never know for sure . Im as sure as i can be that the info you collated between you is my ancestor so thanks to you both for your time involved in this search I do appreciate it thanks so much .
Sofee
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Happy to have been of help, Sofee. I know how exciting it feels to finally solve a longstanding problem, and then be able to move further back in the family tree.
Let us know if we can help further. :)
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I started this side maternal side of my family tree 20 years ago Ive dipped in and out over the years worked on my paternal side too and a couple of friends trees but just lately i thought lets try again. I still couldn't find anything else on Robert Hood and Elizabeth Watters...then I remembered you've helped before in the past so thought Id give it ago and BINGO!! after all these years you've solved it and got even further back than i ever dreamed i would on this family....thanks again for all your hard work resolving my 20year old mystery ;D
sofee :-*
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As Neale says, happy to have helped a little.
Best of luck with all the new searches ;)
Monica