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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: josey on Friday 07 July 23 13:34 BST (UK)
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I am researching this couple for a friend. On a birth certificate for a son in 1931, the marriage date is stated as 14 March 1923 in Kilmarnock but I can find no reference to it on the Scotland's People indexes. They appear to have had 6 children, several of whom have Andrews as their middle name. On the 1931 certificate father Andrew was a ploughman of Bellsland Cottage.
We have obtained a 1983 death certificate for an Andrew Skilling aged 78; this man was born 1904, of 35 Annanhill Avenue, was an engineer/turner and married to Margaret Wilson; son of Robert Skilling blacksmith and Margaret née Campbell. Informant Alexander son of same address. I have obtained the 1927 marriage certificate of Andrew and Margaret confirming his parents. So probably this is not the couple, although they did have some similar named children so I am sure they are part of the same extended Skilling family.
There are newspaper entries in 1942 for a Sarah Skilling with daughter Agnes of 22 Limekiln Rd, Saltcoats and in 1946 for an Andrew Skilling of 64 Annanhill Avenue whose wife [Mrs Skillen no forename] represented him in court. She says they have 6 children one a 14 yr old boy [this could be the 1931 birth]. An Andrew Skilling of this address was the informant on his father Robert's, widow of Margaret Campbell, death certificate in 1961. I cannot confirm if either of these people in the newspapers are the same as the parents of my friend's father.
I have several records for a Sarah McDonald Andrews, who first married Benjamin Thomson widowed lace weaver in Aug 1923. She appears as mother, formerly married to Benjamin Thomson, of Agnes K Skilling born 1925 who married Thomas Nimmo Lawson in 1946 [he died in 1976] with her father stated as Andrew Skilling ploughman deceased. [Added: One of the witnesses was Sarah Thomson. All parties of Sharphill Cottage, Saltcoats]. An Agnes K Lawson with mother’s maiden name of Andrews died in 2012. So it appears that Sarah McDonald Andrews IS the woman who had a family with Andrew Skilling, but did they actually marry?
The Andrew Skilling who died in 1943 was single, of Knockielaw Rd, aged 30, no occupation given, son of Andrew Skilling gardener and Rose Ann Simpson, informant brother Alexander.
I do have other images I have downloaded from SP so further information. If anyone is descended from this couple, is related to the wider family or can shed any light on the inconsistencies I would be extremely grateful. What other resources can I go to to further this research?
Please PM me if you have information about living people.
Thank in advance, Josey
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A Sarah Andrews Skilling was b St Quivox 1926 & died Kilmarnock 1926. Was she one of the 6 children you mention above?
Between 1919-1950 I can only see 3 entries in Ayr with a second name Andrews 1926/27/31. There is a 1937 birth but second name is Andrew
Presumably others didn't have Andrews as a second name
In the absence of a marriage - it looks like they never married for whatever reason
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Thanks, yes the St Quivox Sarah b 1926 is one of the children. Agnes b 1925, then as you say, males 1927, 1929 & 1931 [latter now deceased in England, my friend's father]. There is another male born 1936 in Springburn who has middle initial A & MMN Andrews.[ADDED: Springburn is where Sarah's family lived]. The names of all of these 5 have been mentioned as siblings in the family but as 1931 son left home very early contact has been lost. We maybe need to fund a couple of these birth certificates to see if the parents' marriage date is consistent.
ADDED: But yes I think maybe they didn't marry, but without a marriage certificate how can I find out who Andrew's parents are?
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Death on SP for Sarah McDonald Andrews/Johnstone/Shilling 1973 Kilmarnock aged 72.
If the correct Sarah she has married Peter Johnstone 1948 Kilmarnock (Ayr).
The Valuation Rolls 1940 give Andrew Skilling at Southhook Cottages, Dreghorn and another Andrew Skilling at 64 Annanhill Avenue, Kilmarnock (Ayr).
hmcc.
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I was going down the same route.
ANDREWS
SARAH MCDONALD
MCDONALD
F
1901
615 / 292
STEVENSTON
John
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That's wonderful, thanks both.
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Sarah McDonald had 3 registrations when marrying Peter. Just wondering about the Thomson one. Whether just a coincidence there is an Andrew Skilling born 1905 with mmn Thomson?
JOHNSTONE
PETER
ANDREWS
SARAH MCDONALD
1948
597 / 151
KILMARNOCK (AYR)
JOHNSTONE
PETER
SKILLIN
SARAH MCDONALD
1948
597 / 151
KILMARNOCK (AYR)
JOHNSTONE
PETER
THOMSON
SARAH MCDONALD
1948
597 / 151
KILMARNOCK (AYR
John
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The Valuation Rolls 1940 give Andrew Skilling at Southhook Cottages, Dreghorn and another Andrew Skilling at 64 Annanhill Avenue, Kilmarnock (Ayr).
One of these may be
Birth
SKILLING ANDREW THOMSON M 1905 597 / 882 KILMARNOCK (AYR)
son of Andrew Skilling and Agnes Hunter Thomson.
ADDED: Sorry I hadn't read your reply when I posted johnhood. I think the Thomson one was from her 1923 marriage to Benjamin Thomson.
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I have Sarah's parents as William Andrews b Ireland & Sarah Ann MacDonald b Springburn [from Sarah's birth cert & censuses] who married in 1879.
Andrew 1905 s/o Andrew Skilling & Agnes [Thomson] also had John Banks Thomson S 1903, Ellenora Banks S 1907,ELizabeth Banks S 1910, Thomas P G Kell S 1912 & Alexander Hewit S 1912. Hewit was the maiden name of Andrew 1905's mother.
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Does anyone think it would be worth my friend's brother taking a y-DNA test? I suspect it would not show much as the earliest ancestor I have so far identified - Andrew Skilling b ca 1850 - would show as male ancestor to them all. However it may identify a living male relative.
ADDED: A poser - if Sarah McDonald Andrews said she married Andrew Skilling in Mar 1923 and went on to have 6 children WHY would she marry Benjamin Thomson in Aug 1923?
And PS 22 Limekiln Rd, Saltcoats where Sarah Skilling and Agnes Skilling were living in 1942 [newspaper] is the same address that Sarah [McDonald] Andrews was living at in 1923 when she married Benjamin Thomson. She says she is a spinster. Maybe Sarah split her time between this address and Annanhill Avenue....she maybe inherited the house [or it's tenancy] from her parents.
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josey, cannot answer your query re dna-not my forte.
When revisiting your post this morning did not realise Sarah had married in 1923 to Benjamin. Do you have that marriage certificate and what date was the marriage. The birth cert of son in 1931 records "mother" married 1923 but not to Andrew.
John
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Thank you for those thoughts. Sorry for late reply [health issues].
When revisiting your post this morning did not realise Sarah had married in 1923 to Benjamin. Do you have that marriage certificate and what date was the marriage. The birth cert of son in 1931 records "mother" married 1923 but not to Andrew.
Sarah's marriage to Benjamin Thomson was on 17 Aug 1923 at 22 Limekiln Road, Stevenston, Sarah's address. The marriage noted on the 1931 birth certificate is 14 March 1923 Kilmarnock, but there would be no checking. The first child Agnes Kilpatrick Skilling, was not born till 1925, so no need to marry Benjamin as a cover-up. I do need to follow up why father Andrew is said to be deceased on Agnes' 1946 marriage cert; it appears he was living at 64 Annanhill Avenue in 1942.
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I have just found a Daily Record page from 18 Jan 1937 containing the bare details of the undefended divorce in the Court of Session of Benjamin Thomson lace weaver of West Donnington Street, Darvel from Sarah Andrews or Thomson. This is his address for the 1923 marriage. Sarah's address is c/o O'Hara, 9 Taylor Street, Glasgow.
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Hi Josey
The 1940 VRs show:
EDWARD OHARA
Tenant
HOUSE 9 TAYLOR STREET
GLASGOW
1940
VR010201661-
Monica
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Oh thank you, I wonder how Edward O'Hara and Sarah are connected. The divorce of Benjamin Thomson from Sarah Andrews was in 1937, the last child I have identified of Andrew Skilling and Sarah Andrews was born in 1936; it's not possible to know [without possibly buying a 1939 register entry for Sarah] if she was actually living in Glasgow or just using it as a forwarding address.
At the moment I am wondering if Andrew Skilling went abroad or changed his name rather than died before 1946. I can find no death entry on SP or freebmd.
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it's not possible to know [without possibly buying a 1939 register entry for Sarah] if she was actually living in Glasgow or just using it as a forwarding address, hence the c/o I suppose.
I found the 1937 electoral roll for 9 Taylor St, although other people were living there apart from Mrs Elizabeth O'Hara and Edward O'Hara, Sarah wasn't registered there.
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josey refers to Limekiln Road as in Saltcoats until Post #11 when it becomes Stevenston.
Limekiln Road is near the Rail Station in Stevenston, Stevenston Parish, not Saltcoats which is in Ardrossan Parish.
Sharphill Cottage was a mile north of the High Road junction with Dalry Road, in Saltcoats, well outside the town in the 1940s. The new 3 towns bypass has a roundabout just at Sharphill Cottage.
Just saying ... cheers, Ian
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It is hard to guess what age Andrew Skilling was when he was with Sarah.
His occupation showed as ploughman when his daughters' Agnes and Sarah were born in 1925 & 1926?
There is an Andrew Skilling, ploughman, working for a Francis Wilson, farmer, at Guiltreehill Farm in Kirkmichael, Ayrshire on the 1925 VRs.
1935 VRs show an Andrew Skilling, ploughman, working for a John Y Currie, farmer, at Southook Farm in Dreghorn, Ayrshire.
The name of Andrew Skilling is not common on the records. So, to have records showing an Andrew Skillling and the occupation of ploughman makes you think they may connect to the Andrew you are searching for.
Monica
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Have you considered this death in 1938?
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Josey, I am sure you can name all the Skillings in Kilmarnock off by heart by now ::)...but just as background here to that death entry, his family in 1901:
Andrew Skilling 50 carter b. Ballantrae, Ayrshire
Margaret Skilling 50 b. Dailly, Ayrshire
James Skilling 26
Andrew Skilling 24 carter b. Maybole, Ayrshire
Robert Neven Skilling 21
Jane Skilling 19
Alexander Skilling 17
John Skilling 14
Address 118 Fitchfield St, Kilmarnock
Monica
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Address 118 Fitchfield St, Kilmarnock
the pedant in me says Titchfield Street.
cheers, Ian
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Andrew Skilling is still on VR at Southhook Farm, Dreghorn 1940 therefore a different Andrew Skilling to one who died in 1938.
Limekiln Road on VR gives William Andrews as tenant up to 1940, Sarah Andrews father possibly.
hmcc.
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Josey, I am sure you can name all the Skillings in Kilmarnock off by heart by now ::)...
And they are nearly all called Andrew ??? or have a son called Andrew.
That death is a good find. Andrew b 1877 son of Andrew Skilling b & Margaret Hewitt I had down married to Agnes Hunter Thomson in 1902
SKILLING ANDREW
THOMSON Agnes HUNTER
1902 597 / 54 KILMARNOCK (AYR),
BUT this death of a SINGLE Andrew ploughman fits in with the father of the children with Sarah [MacDonald] Andrews if they did not marry and being deceased on a daughter's 1946 marriage.
This is what I have for Andrew & Agnes: 1911 they are living at 29 Elmbank St carter [same occupation as 1901] Andrew 33 with Agnes aged 33 & 5 children, 1921 census @ 86 West Shaw Street widowed living with widowed mother Margaret 72/7, aged 45/11 b Maybole ag servant for Robert Drummond & son John [M's grandson] 18/6 ex-soldier o/w ?out of work. Agnes died in 1914
SKILLING AGNES age 33 MMN BANKS F 1914 578 / 1 / 73 AYR
The birth of Andrew the son of Andrew b 1877 & Agnes née Hunter Thomson in 1905 records Andrew snr's occupation as gardener [carter in 1901 & 1911?] and took place at 20 East Shaw Street.
So I think I should get the marriage cert of Andrew & Agnes to check age, address, parents and occupation. Will report back. I have sent a PM Monica. Thanks.
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OK so 1902 marriage:
14 Mar 1902 [very strange that 14 Mar should be same date as purported marriage of Andrew Skilling and Sarah Andrews in 1923...]
Andrew aged 24 gardener s/o Andrew gardener bach & Margaret née Hewitt, Agnes 24 dressmaker spin both of 39 Waterside Street, Kilmarnock which is where marriage took place, witnesses George McIntyre & Mary Stevens.
So if this Andrew had a family with Agnes, lived with his mother Margaret & son John in 1921 then another family with Sarah Andrews or Thomson 1925 - 1936, then died in 1938 [the statement of being single may just be that officially he was widowed?] then WHO is the Andrew Skilling with 6 children at 64 Annanhill Avenue in the 1946 newspaper report [he failed to send a 14 yr old son to school, I thought this may be my friend's father born 1931] and an A Skilling still living at that address when he reported his father Robert Skilling's death in 1961 ???
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I now think the Andrew of 64 Annanhill Avenue 1946 newspaper report & the 1961 informant are the Andrew born 1904 - son of Robert Neven [various spellings] Skilling and Margaret Campbell - who married Margaret Wilson in 1927
SKILLING ANDREW WILSON MARGARET 1927 608 / 37 NEW CUMNOCK [I have this certificate, he was aged 22] and died in 1983 [I have this certificate too he was aged 78]; on all these certificates he is an engineer & son of the parents named above.
Andrew and Margaret [Wilson] had I think possibly 7 children one of whom died.
ADDED: I have tried to find an Andrew Skilling on the Glasgow electoral rolls at t he address given on the 1938 death certificate without success.
I now need to reconstruct my database ;D with yet another theory which may or may not be able to be proved. But thanks for everyone's help, much appreciated.
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Address 118 Fitchfield St, Kilmarnock
the pedant in me says Titchfield Street.
cheers, Ian
More that likely, Ian ;D
Monica
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I just want to put Andrew & Agnes' childrens' names here so that an internet search by their descendants or researchers may find them [rootschat threads are very good at topping search results....]
John Banks Thomson Skilling 1903
Andrew Skilling 1905
Ellenora Banks Skilling 1907
Elizabeth Banks Skilling 1908
Thomas P G Kell Skilling 1910
Alexander Hewit Skilling 1912
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And at least 3 of them died in Ayr (going by the indexing of mother's maiden name being included):
1978 - Elizabeth Banks Skilling or Wotherspoon
1987 - Alexander Hewit Skilling
1996 - Thomas Peter Gi. Skilling
Monica
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Oh thanks, will add those dates.
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His occupation showed as ploughman when his daughters' Agnes and Sarah were born in 1925 & 1926?
There is an Andrew Skilling, ploughman, working for a Francis Wilson, farmer, at Guiltreehill Farm in Kirkmichael, Ayrshire on the 1925 VRs.
1935 VRs show an Andrew Skilling, ploughman, working for a John Y Currie, farmer, at Southook Farm in Dreghorn, Ayrshire.
I will try to persuade my friend to spend £12 on each of these certificates. 1925 child was registered in Ayr, 1926 in St Quivox, 1927 in Kilmaurs but of course that would have been where the mother was....
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Just thought I'd post the thread started by my friend's brother a few years ago. Their father died last year.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=173843.msg828021#msg828021
I think we can tell him we've got a lot further ;D
Just wondering if the address of Edgefaulds Rd [637? 657? 687?] on the 1938 death certificate means anything? Could it be the old Barnhill Poorhouse later Forresthall Hospital [for the aged]?
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josey refers to Limekiln Road as in Saltcoats until Post #11 when it becomes Stevenston.
Limekiln Road is near the Rail Station in Stevenston, Stevenston Parish, not Saltcoats which is in Ardrossan Parish.
Sharphill Cottage was a mile north of the High Road junction with Dalry Road, in Saltcoats, well outside the town in the 1940s. The new 3 towns bypass has a roundabout just at Sharphill Cottage.
Just saying ... cheers, Ian
Thanks for that correction Ian, it all helps.
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Just wondering if the address of Edgefaulds Rd [637? 657? 687?] on the 1938 death certificate means anything? Could it be the old Barnhill Poorhouse later Forresthall Hospital [for the aged]?
Exactly that.
At some point they started using the street addresses of poorhouses and hospitals to make it less obvious that the person concerned was born or had died in an institution.
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The 1940 Valuation Roll for 657 Edgefauld Road shows Thomas P Adam [informant on the 1938 death certificate as 'occupier'] to be Barnhill Poorhouse.
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Ellanora Banks Thomson Skilling was my grandmother. She had a son Thomas Cree Skilling. There was no father on the birth certificate. I am trying to trace the father as this would help me with my family tree.
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Ellanora Banks Thomson Skilling was my grandmother. The rest of the family would be my aunts and uncles. I'm still working on the family to trace any children