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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: History Lives on Sunday 02 July 23 01:54 BST (UK)
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Hi all, my 3x great grandparents James MacDonald and Ann Ramsay married in Arbroath in 1865. James was certainly Catholic, from County Tyrone, Ireland, I'm not sure about Ann's family.
The marriage record lists Ann's parents as James Ramsay, weaver in Pathhead, and Ann maiden surname Low. I can't find out much more at all about James and Ann Ramsay nee Low, and have been unable to find a marriage record in either Catholic or Church of Scotland records despite trying a few spelling variations for Ramsay and Low. Haven't been able to find the baptism for the young Ann either.
They may have been living in 1851 in Forfar, with James' birth estimated around 1800 in Dysart. The occupation is right with him being a weaver but can't find them before or after this date
Would appreciate a second pair of eyes on this one in case I've missed something. Thanks in advance!
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I'm not sure you're going to find a marriage for James Ramsay and Ann Low - or baptisms for their children - as it looks likely they weren't married.
This does appear to be them in 1851 in Dundee Road, Forfar:
James Ramsay, head, 50, handloom weaver, Dysart, Fife
Ann Ramsay, wife, 31, winder, Dysart, Fife
James Ramsay, son, 10, scholar, Dysart, Fife
Ann Ramsay, daughter, 6, scholar, Dysart, Fife
David Ramsay, son, 1, Forfar, Angus
I haven't had any luck tracking down a death for James Ramsay senior, Ann Low or James Ramsay junior. However, David Ramsay died aged 15 in 1866 in Alyth, Perthshire. On the death record he is described as illegitimate, with James Ramsay (deceased) being the 'reputed father' - the record was signed by Ann Low, mother.
Ruth
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This does appear to be them in 1851 in Dundee Road, Forfar:
James Ramsay, head, 50, handloom weaver, Dysart, Fife
Ann Ramsay, wife, 31, winder, Dysart, Fife
James Ramsay, son, 10, scholar, Dysart, Fife
Ann Ramsay, daughter, 6, scholar, Dysart, Fife
David Ramsay, son, 1, Forfar, Angus
1841 census I think this is probably the same James Ramsay
With children from an earlier marriage.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a149f05f4040b9d6e9be0aa/james-ramsey-1841-fife-dysart-1799-?locale=en
• There is a burial in Dysart 24/01/1841 for Catrin Ramsay / Willson (age 40) who might be that previous wife. You would need to see if there is any information on the record.
• There is a marriage for a Catherine Wilson to a James Ramsay in Dysart 17 Jan 1819.
• There are no obvious baptisms for their children, but there are possible death registrations that might match the three girls.
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However, David Ramsay died aged 15 in 1866 in Alyth, Perthshire. On the death record he is described as illegitimate, with James Ramsay (deceased) being the 'reputed father' - the record was signed by Ann Low, mother.
Do you have a death certificate for James Ramsay?
There is a death registration in Alyth 1859 for a James Ramsay (age 61 – mother Briscoe)
Have you found a death for the mother Ann Low? I didn’t see one, either.
If that is James death in 1859, I wonder if she married again? She would only have been in her late 30s, and if so, her death may have been recorded under another surname.
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Do you have a death certificate for James Ramsay?
There is a death registration in Alyth 1859 for a James Ramsay (age 61 – mother Briscoe)
Have you found a death for the mother Ann Low? I didn’t see one, either.
If that is James death in 1859, I wonder if she married again? She would only have been in her late 30s, and if so her death may have been recorded under another surname.
I thought that might be him - but it's a different James Ramsay.
Ruth
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Possible 1841 census for Ann Low
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a149f10f4040b9d6e9bf41f/anne-low-1841-fife-dysart-1822-?locale=en
AND
1851 census backstreet Pathhead, Dysart
Ann Law 59 weaveress, born Cockpen Edinburgh
Margaret Law 16 daughter weaveress, born Dysart
William Black 8 grandson, born Dysart
Possible birth for Margaret LOW born 26/8/1834, baptised 8/ 5 /1836 in Dysart - daughter of John Low and Anne Honeyman
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Image of marriage certificate from inline family tree -
31 July 1865 at 24 Hamilton Green Arbroath County of Forfar Established Church of Scotland
MacDONALD James (X) bachelor labourer 31y usual res: 24 Hamilton Green Arbroath
Father: John MacDONALD farmer in Tyrone (deceased
Mother: Mary MacDONALD mms O'NEILL (deceased)
Witness to mark of John MacDONALD......Edward G ANDERSON John RODGERS
RAMSAY Ann (X) spinster flax spinning mill worker 22y usual res: 24 Hamilton Green Arbroath
Father: James RAMSAY weaver in Pathhead (deceased)
Mother: Ann RAMSAY ms LOW
Witness to mark of Ann RAMSAY.... Edward G ANDERSON John RODGERS
Witnesses........Joseph COLLINS Margaret COLLINS
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Possible 1841 census for Ann Low
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a149f10f4040b9d6e9bf41f/anne-low-1841-fife-dysart-1822-?locale=en
AND
1851 census backstreet Pathhead, Dysart
Ann Law 59 weaveress, born Cockpen Edinburgh
Margaret Law 16 daughter weaveress, born Dysart
William Black 8 grandson, born Dysart
Possible birth for Margaret LOW born 26/8/1834, baptised 8/ 5 /1836 in Dysart - daughter of John Low and Anne Honeyman
If that's the correct Low family, then it looks like our Ann Low was married previously - the grandson William Black is the son of William Black tin plate worker and Ann Low. William Black and Ann Low were married on 17 July 1841 in Dysart. Their son William was born about 1843, although there is no baptism that I can see.
William Black junior married Mary Ann Thomson in Tain in 1870. He was a stone mason and then superintendent of the water works at Edinburgh. He died in 1911.
On his marriage record, his parents are noted as William Black, tin plate worker (dec) and Ann Low (dec).
So, time for a bit of speculation ;D
If this is the right Ann Low, did her first husband die and then she took up with James Ramsay? If that's the case, then it seems probable that James Ramsay, aged 10, who appears with the family in 1851, is actually the son of James Ramsay's first wife Catherine Wilson, who died in 1841. And Ann left her son, William Black to be raised by his grandmother?
Still doesn't help with finding a death for Ann Low. She was still alive in 1866 when her son David died in Alyth. If we are to believe William Black's marriage registration in 1870, she was dead by then. Her mother, Ann Low (nee Honeyman) died in 1870 in Leslie, Fife.
Ruth
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The kirk sessions for Dysart up to 1842 are available on ScotlandsPeople.
Perhaps have a look to see if the names Low or Ramsay or Black appear at all.
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"James was certainly Catholic, from County Tyrone, Ireland"
The marriage certificate, 1865, gives Tyrone as location for father James MacDONALD.
What is your reference for James MacDONALD, married 1865, Church of Scotland, to be Catholic?
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"James was certainly Catholic, from County Tyrone, Ireland"
The marriage certificate, 1865, gives Tyrone as location for father James MacDONALD.
What is your reference for James MacDONALD, married 1865, Church of Scotland, to be Catholic?
His daughter Ann MacDonald went on to marry James Salmond in a Catholic marriage. Since I haven't found any Salmonds during my research outside of the Church of Scotland I have assumed the Catholic side were the MacDonald's from Ireland and/or Ramsay's Unless of course Ann MacDonald herself converted but I thought that was unlikely.
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You are considering the possibility that? -
Ann RAMSAY marr. James MacDONALD 1865 (ps. James RAMSAY / Ann LOW)
William BLACK marr. Mary Ann THOMSON 1870 (ps. William BLACK / Ann LOW)...both deceased
Ann LOW, same woman, is mother to Ann and William ie they are half siblings?
Is this your family?
Ancestry Census Scotland 1871 at 1 Church St Arbroath Angus
MACDONALD James 38y masons labourer b. Ireland
MACDONALD Ann 28y b. Peterhead Fife
MACDONALD Margaret 4y b. St Vigeans Forfarshire
MACDONALD James 3y b. Arbroath
MACDONALD William 6mts b. Arbroath
Ancestry Census Scotland 1881 at 21 Smithy Croft Arbroath Angus
McDONALD James 48y general lab. b. Ireland
McDONALD Ann 40y b. Pathhead Fifeshire
McDONALD Mary 14y millworker b. Arbroath Forfarshire
McDONALD James 13y ropemaker app. b. Arbroath Forfarshire
McDONALD William 10y scholar b. Arbroath Forfarshire
McDONALD John 7y scholar b. Arbroath Forfarshire
McDONALD Helen 5y b. Arbroath Forfarshire
McDONALD Peter 3y b. Arbroath Forfarshire
second household at same address
KING Peter 68y scavenger b. Ireland
KING Margaret 27y dau spinner b. Arbroath Forfarshire
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I'm revisiting this part of my family tree after coming back from Dundee, wondering if I can fill in another gap or two.
I'm still missing the 1891 census for daughter Ann MacDonald, wife of James MacDonald who died in 1883 and also her death record.
I know she was living as of the 1901 census, with only one daughter Margaret in Arbroath, and was still alive as of Margaret's marriage in 1908. She appears to be living on the same street as Margaret in 1911 also (North Street Dundee) but had died by 1922 when Margaret married a second time. I have eliminated several death records as not her.
If the older Ann was illegitimate, then perhaps I should be looking for deaths under the name Ann Low rather than Ann Ramsay? I really don't know!
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have you eliminated this one? If the informant got the mother's maiden name wrong, it could be her. Age is consistent with the 1871 census.
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have you eliminated this one? If the informant got the mother's maiden name wrong, it could be her. Age is consistent with the 1871 census.
Hmm...
Good spot, yes it appears to be, the occupation is jute preparer which is consistent and the witness to the death is her daughter Ann Salmond, my great great grandmother. She is also listed as widow of James MacDonald, all good there
However, her parents names are different. They are listed as William Ramsay and Ann Yule. So did Ann Low go on to marry a Yule and is William Ramsay simply just a mix up of names?
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Well, if everything else fits it probably is her. Ann Macdonald or Salmond wouldn't be the first person to get her grandparents' names wrong.
Are there any other records of a Ramsay/Yule couple? Could they be Anne Macdonald or Salmond's great-grandparents?
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Well, if everything else fits it probably is her. Ann Macdonald or Salmond wouldn't be the first person to get her grandparents' names wrong.
Are there any other records of a Ramsay/Yule couple? Could they be Anne Macdonald or Salmond's great-grandparents?
Helen Yule and William Ramsay married in Dysart in 1837, William may have been the brother to James Ramsay but not sure...