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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: MacMahuna on Thursday 22 June 23 15:52 BST (UK)

Title: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: MacMahuna on Thursday 22 June 23 15:52 BST (UK)
 I have hit a solid brick wall with regards the mother of my grandfather Arthur Penfold.

He was born in Southampton c. 1875 to  Amos but I cannot find his mother though it could be Ethel who shows in the 1891 Census. It says she is about the same age but unknown as to birthplace

Arthur had two sisters Priscilla , born 1882 in Wiltshire but whose mother is listed as Esther and Patience born in 1891 in Brighton whose mother was Ethel.

I have no marriage certificate for Amos and his wife nor for Arthur and his wife Priscilla Thompson

Over the years there was a lot of inter marriage between Penfolds and so many have the same names!

Maybe I should just give up
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: rosie99 on Thursday 22 June 23 16:00 BST (UK)
Just for information
1891 - New Forest, Hampshire
RG12
Piece  911
Folio 57
Page 12

Amos 26 bn Shirley Hants, Ethel 26 bn NK, Priscilla 10 bn Malmesbury, Wiltshire and Patience 4 bn Brighton
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: MacMahuna on Thursday 22 June 23 16:02 BST (UK)
Gosh, that was quick
Yes, thats correct plus Alfred my grandfather born c. 1875
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: rosie99 on Thursday 22 June 23 16:07 BST (UK)
Arthur was not with the family in 1891  :)

Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: QueenoftheWest on Thursday 22 June 23 16:26 BST (UK)
Could you please provide the source of your information.

Do you have a baptism for Arthur? If he was born c.1875, then how was his father born c.1865? That would make his father 10 years old when he was born?

In 1921, Arthur gives his birth place as Wigan, Lancashire.

Queenie  :)
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: QueenoftheWest on Thursday 22 June 23 16:34 BST (UK)
In 1880, Amos Penfold married Esther Thompson.

Looks like Amos was still married to Esther in 1912, as Amos was charged with assaulting her at Fishbourne in Chichester. Priscilla, the daughter, is also mentioned. The case was dropped. I mean, I think this is the right family?

Was Esther also known as Ethel?

Queenie  :)
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: MacMahuna on Thursday 22 June 23 18:15 BST (UK)
I have no official details other than the information on 1911 Census and the 1921 Census, which I cannot find now, but he was in Southampton at that time with his two younger daughters.
And, of course, my mother who told me both of her parents were born in the Southampton area

My maternal grandmother was very anti-Irish  ( my father was Irish) and said that her husbands her husbands father-in-law was an "Irish pig"

The irish ness would actually tie in with Esther Thompsons father from Goodford Clatford, Hampshire whose father was from Belfast

All very convoluted, i'm afraid

You mentioned the assault on Esther. Can you give me the link to that, please?

I understand that there was a lot of inter marriage in the travelling community and particularly among the Penfolds
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: MacMahuna on Thursday 22 June 23 18:18 BST (UK)
I should have added that I did recognise the inconsistencies with ages. I was told on another forum that wrong ages were often given
I couldnt find a baptism for Arthur
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: QueenoftheWest on Thursday 22 June 23 18:43 BST (UK)
I have no official details other than the information on 1911 Census and the 1921 Census, which I cannot find now, but he was in Southampton at that time with his two younger daughters.

In 1911, he was in Plymouth, Devon with his wife, Priscilla, and 3 children, Arthur, Patience and Priscilla. His birthplace was Southampton.

In 1921, he was still in Plymouth, Devon. His birthplace was Wigan:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01sek/

I cannot find him in Southampton?

Here is the article on FindMyPast:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01sel/

I cannot be sure that this is the right family, but it does mention a man called Amos, a wife called Esther and a daughter called Priscilla...

Alternatively, the British Newspaper Archive offers 3 free articles to new users. Just search "Amos Penfold, Esther." I should note that their daughter is described as Priscilla Thompson, so she also had a Thompson connection! I see what you are saying about the same names popping up again and again - makes it a little confusing!

So did your mother know that Arthur's father was called Amos? Sorry if I am missing something, but how exactly did you make the connection otherwise?

Queenie  :)
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: Dundee on Thursday 22 June 23 20:46 BST (UK)
.....Priscilla , born 1882 in Wiltshire but whose mother is listed as Esther and Patience born in 1891 in Brighton whose mother was Ethel.

Priscilla PENFOLD
Baptism Date    16 Jul 1882
Baptism Place    Cherhill, Wiltshire, England
Residence    Portsmouth
Father       Amos PENFOLD, Basket maker
Mother   Esther

Patience PENFOLD
Baptism Date    25 Oct 1887
Baptism Place    Pennington, Hampshire, England
Residence     Encampment Van
Father    Amos PENFOLD, Gipsy
Mother    Esther

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: Dundee on Thursday 22 June 23 21:33 BST (UK)
1911 census

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW9X-4WS

Perhaps Arthur was TUBBS, not PENFOLD.

TUBBS, ARTHUR
Mother's maiden surname: THOMPSON     
GRO Reference: 1905  J Quarter in PLYMOUTH  Volume 05B  Page 239

Arthur TUBBS
Birth Date    2 Mar 1905
Baptism Date    14 Mar 1905
Baptism Place    Plymouth, St Peter, Devon, England
Father    Arthur TUBBS
Mother    Priscilla
Page number    22

Debra  :)

Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Thursday 22 June 23 22:10 BST (UK)
The girls are registered as Penfold - but with same mother's maiden name
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: QueenoftheWest on Thursday 22 June 23 22:14 BST (UK)
Some excellent research Debra!

Arthur TUBBS
Birth Date    2 Mar 1905
Baptism Date    14 Mar 1905
Baptism Place    Plymouth, St Peter, Devon, England
Father    Arthur TUBBS
Mother    Priscilla
Page number    22

I have attached the original from the parish register, as it was actually amended. This is a good case of why it is always better to see the original!

I believe that little note says something like "altered on evidence (?) of mother November 2nd 1920." So she had it changed 15 years later?

Queenie  :)

P.S. Hope I haven't broken any copyright rules with this snippet  :-\
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Thursday 22 June 23 22:30 BST (UK)
Priscilla isn;t at home in 1921, so I can only assume she's left and decided Arthur jnr's true background should be recorded

Although if Ms Tubbs was a single woman in 1905, where does Thompson come from?
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: Beverley185 on Wednesday 05 July 23 18:24 BST (UK)
Amos Penfold was my great-uncle and I cannot find any evidence that he has a son called Arthur.  I know a lot about him and his wife Esther who were often drinking to excess and having fights were which were reported in local newspapers.  There is no baptism for an Arthur Penfold in the Southampton area.  Arthur also appears in the newspapers as a result of drinking too much.  Priscilla was a Thompson and reverted to this name sometime  after 1921.  Her parents were Henry Thompson and Caroline Saunders. I was told that she had married a Mr Tubbs (many years ago) but never found confirmation of this.  She and Arthur had further children between 1911-1920.
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 09 December 24 17:27 GMT (UK)
The baptism alterations would indicate that Priscilla wanted to be known as single woman surname TUBBS
Whether or not she had married mt TUBBS

And that Arthur Penfold .. a hawker was not the child's father

Presumably the child reverted to PENFOLD surname to be same as siblings or step father
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 09 December 24 17:30 GMT (UK)
Related post

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=887878.msg7611231#msg7611231
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: MacMahuna on Tuesday 10 December 24 09:28 GMT (UK)
Thank you for so much information and hard work as  it clarifies a lot

I found recently on Ancestry that I have a second cousin from the Tubbs family so that would suggest to me that Mr Tubbs may also have been the father of my mother Patience born 1907 as well as Arthur who, again on Ancestry, sometimes used the name Tubbs and at others Penfold

According to the 1939 Census there was also another daughter, Kathleen, who was born in 1920 but this would have made her mother Priscilla in her mid 50s when she gave birth to her . So many secrets in the family.



Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: KGarrad on Tuesday 10 December 24 10:07 GMT (UK)
Priscilla was born 1876; Kathleen was born 1920.
Making Priscilla 44 at the birth.

Secondly, the 1939 National Register was not a census!
A census is a snapshot of who was where on a specified date.
The 1939 Register was later used, and updated, by the NHS until the 1990s.
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: MacMahuna on Tuesday 10 December 24 11:34 GMT (UK)
Of course, you are right!
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Tuesday 10 December 24 19:38 GMT (UK)

According to the 1939 Census there was also another daughter, Kathleen, who was born in 1920 but this would have made her mother Priscilla in her mid 50s when she gave birth to her . So many secrets in the family.

I think your maths is out. Priscilla b 1873, Kathleen b 1920, making Priscilla about 46/47 when she was born, which seems more within the bounds of possibility

Kathleen Penfold
Birth       23 Aug 1920
Baptism     18 Sep 1920 Plymouth, St Peter,
Religion    Anglican
Father    Arthur Penfold
Mother    Priscilla Penfold

Birth registered as Penfold, mmn Thompson.
Married as a Thompson
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: MacMahuna on Friday 13 December 24 20:07 GMT (UK)
Thank you.
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: Beverley185 on Saturday 28 December 24 21:11 GMT (UK)
Priscilla Thompson gave her birth date as 30 December 1876 on the 1939 Register but her birth was registered in the March Quarter 1878 so she was actually born in 1877.
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: Beverley185 on Monday 30 December 24 14:39 GMT (UK)
I have uncovered more information regarding Priscilla Thompson.  She has a younger sister called Louisa who wrote a memoir 'Love Story of a Gypsy'.  She mentions her much older sisters Ria and Prissy and that they married brothers. Maria married Robert Penfold in Shirley, Southampton on 19 October 1893.  Robert had a brother Frederick who died in 1899 aged 21.  I noticed that there was a burial for another Frederick Penfold in the same month in the burial register for Kingston Cemetery in Portsmouth.  He is recorded as aged 20 months, son of Frederick Penfold.  I found his birth registered in South Stoneham now part of Southampton and he was the son of Frederick Penfold and Priscilla nee Thompson.  The address is where Frederick's sister Rachel was living with her husband Gerald Loyd Jackson so I know it is relevant.  On Frederick's death registration the informant was H Thompson, father-in-law who was Priscilla's father. 
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: MacMahuna on Monday 30 December 24 16:42 GMT (UK)
Thanks so much for the information about Priscilla's first marriage and child
I also found that she had another child previously unknown to me named John who was born in 1917 but only lived a short times so  seven children altogether.
Louisa married Andrew Stokes ( brother of Manfield who had married Louisa's sister Rose) but I cant find any children
I would love to read Louisa's memoir if you can give me a link, please.
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: MacMahuna on Monday 30 December 24 17:08 GMT (UK)
Priscilla Thompson gave her birth date as 30 December 1876 on the 1939 Register but her birth was registered in the March Quarter 1878 so she was actually born in 1877.

Yes, I have her birth certificate for 30 December 1877 at Vincent Street,  Southampton
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: Beverley185 on Monday 30 December 24 19:35 GMT (UK)
I think Arthur Tubbs and Arthur Penfold are the same person and he has taken on Priscilla's married surname although I cannot find a legal marriage for her to Frederick Penfold.  Louisa's book was first published in 1950 and I managed to obtain a reprint of it about 25 years ago.  It isn't available online to my knowledge.  I am descended from Rachel Penfold.  Her mother was a Priscilla Thompson who
was a sister of Henry Thompson who married Maria Penfold.  Henry and Maria had one son Henry who married Caroline Saunders.
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: MacMahuna on Tuesday 31 December 24 11:51 GMT (UK)
I keep on returning to that conclusion  :)
Title: Re: Arthur Penfold : Traveller and Hawker
Post by: ct2003 on Wednesday 01 January 25 16:50 GMT (UK)
I’ve just discovered this forum as part of my recently re-started my family tree research. Arthur James Tubbs/Penfold/Thompson (b 1905) was my Great Grandfather. This thread is covering something that confused me in my previous research over 10 years ago and is continuing to confuse me now! My Great Grandfather was always known as Thompson in our family, and all his subsequent children were christened Thompson. However, I have his birth cert obtained from GRO with his correct DOB and as mentioned in this forum, he is documented as Arthur Tubbs, with his father of the same name. Priscilla Thompson was his mother from the birth cert and the information obtained by my family conversations.

There was some mention from one member of my family that he was actually born Arthur Penfold, but that he took his Mother's name of Thompson instead. I was told that his father was a fairground man and that he either left or was asked to leave the family by Priscilla. The name of Tubbs within my family was unknown, whilst the Penfold name seems known by at least one of Arthur’s children, but not spoken about.

The Tubbs connection seems odd to me. I was interested to read the post by ‘QueenoftheWest’ regarding my Great Grandfathers Baptism (?) record and the change of name many years later to replace the Penfold name with Tubbs. Does anyone have a copy of the original of this document or know how I can get a copy as this would be very interesting for my research?

I'm also interested to know how were the daughters of Priscilla Thompson (Patience, Priscilla Jnr etc) named on their Birth Cert? Were they named Thompson or Penfold? I presume there’s no further mention of Tubbs in the direct family aside from that of my Great Grandfather?


Regards


Chris