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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: sonyao on Tuesday 20 June 23 00:40 BST (UK)
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I am trying to identify a girl in a family photo. I have attached two photos of the girl, in the first photo Doreen is standing on the left, in the second photo Doreen is kneeling in the left rear, Alice Croker is sitting on the front of the photo nursing her grandchild Norma Baxter born 1926. Doreen is related somehow to George Stephenson Wallace 1873-1931 father of George Wallace vaudeville actor comedian and my great aunt Alice Croker nee Vaughan, Alice had a son Thomas George Wallace with George who was born in 1910. It is known Doreen was very close to Thomas in as much as she was related to the family somehow and lived with the family for some time. I found a Doreen V Wallace b. Glebe 1913 but her grandparents are not in my Wallace family as far as i can find. I suspect this Wallace family is connected to my Wallace family as they all lived in the Glebe, Balmain and Forest Lodge Area.
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Hi, even tho Doreen might be a member of the Wallace family she may have been born under a different surname.
Do you have any further information no matter how small that may help?
Could Doreen have been a foster child?
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I have been doing some digging around and it gets confusing. Still not sure where Doreen fits in.
4117/1895
CROKER ALBERT E
VAUGHAN ALICE M
YOUNG
Had 3 children to above marriage
Apparently had a child in 1910 to Wallace, no father's name noted.
WALLACE THOMAS G1322/1910 -- ALICE -- BALMAIN SOUTH
edited to add another child without father noted
CROKER Rita Adeline 10916/1905 -- Alice -- Balmain
Divorced Albert Croker in 1926
Title Divorce papers Alice May Croker Albert Edward Croker
Contents Date Range
08-07-1924 to 05-10-1926
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245839698
Have you obtained the birth cert. for Thomas 1910? Just wondering if it would list his siblings.
Is there any chance Doreen could be a daughter to Alice or this has been eliminated?
Divorce files can at times hold interesting information such as kids etc and would be interesting if Doreen makes a mention. OR there could be very little information on the file. Hit and miss with them at times.
Just making suggestions to try and find out who your Doreen is.
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Another article on Alice and Albert
1925
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245242978
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Alice May Croker (born Vaughan), 1877 - 1939
Alice May Vaughan was born 1877, to Thomas Vaughan and Sarah Ann Vaughan (born Atkins)... https://www.myheritage.com/names/alice_vaughan
Marriage: 4117/1895 Alice M. VAUGHAN and Albert E. CROKER; Young
Marriage: 17195/1926 Alice M. CROKER and Arthur STEWART; Waverley
Death: 3396/1939 Alice May STEWART; Thomas; Sarah; Hunters Hill
Death notice: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/27974555
STEWART. - March 28, 1939, at her residence, 42 Blaxland Street, Gladesville (suddenly), Alice May,
dearly beloved wife of Arthur Stewart and loving mother of Rita, George, and Doreen, aged 58 years.
Funeral notice: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17586744
STEWART.—The Relatives and Friends of Mr. ARTHUR STEWART, Mr. and Mrs. G. HOLLINGSWORTH, GEORGE and DOREEN, are kindly invited to attend the Funeral of their dearly beloved WIFE and their MOTHER, Alice May Stewart; to leave 42 Blaxland Street, Gladesville, THIS DAY, after service commencing at 2 p.m., for the Methodist Cemetery, Rookwood.
Is Doreen mentioned in siblings notices?
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Birth:10916/1905 CROKER Rita Adeline; Mother - Alice ; (no father listed) Balmain
10916/1905 CROKER RITA A; Mother - Alice ; (no father listed) Balmain South
10916/1905 VAUGHAN RITA A; Mother - Alice ; (no father listed) Balmain South
Marriage: 1236/1925 Rita M. CROKER and Roy BAXTER; Balmain North
Article: Rita Madeline Baxter and Roy Baxter https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/169333648
Divorce: https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ebnd1l/ADLIB_RNSW112388943
Marriage: 3285/1935 Rita M. BAXTER and Gordon HOLLINGSWORTH; Burwood
Divorce https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ebnd1l/ADLIB_RNSW112454753
Marriage: 24298/1941 Rita Madeline HOLLINGSWORTH and John DAVISON; Glebe
Divorce: https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ebnd1l/ADLIB_RNSW111807763
Marriage: 19176/1962 Rita Madeline DAVISON and Sydney Lovell REYNOLDS; Marrickville
Death 1985 REYNOLDS Lovell Sydney age 75 (pg 29) https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19850923&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
Death: Rita Madeline Reynolds also known as Rita Adeline Reynolds - Date of death 12/07/1988, Granted on 16/05/1989
Probate Packet: https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ebnd1l/ADLIB_RNSW115000015
(12/7/1988) 19908/1988 Rita REYNOLDS; DIED FOREST LODGE; (age) 081; 001
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https://www.ancestry.com.au/discoveryui-content/view/400626:61177
Following the complicated trail of this family.
The above link is the baptism of Thomas George Wallace CROAKER(sic) born 1910 to George and Alice Croaker (sic)
From another reply....
"Apparently had a child in 1910 to Wallace, no father's name noted.
WALLACE THOMAS G1322/1910 -- ALICE -- BALMAIN SOUTH
edited to add another child without father noted"
Where is this information from? If its a transcription its not accurate.
In 1930 he is living Bishopgate St. Balmain
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sonyao,
When you reply to the posts which have been researched by the forum members here, could you possibly tell us who the other people in the big photo are?
That is of course if you know. :D
Also, who is the other little girl in the first photo?
In my opinion the top girls are about 6 to7 years old and Doreen about 8 in the second photo.
The youngster, little Norma, born 1926 looks about 3 years or a little more.
So we could guess the picture was taken around 1929 or 1930
Putting it all together Doreen might have been born in the very early 1920's.
Sue
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https://www.ancestry.com.au/discoveryui-content/view/400626:61177
From another reply....
"Apparently had a child in 1910 to Wallace, no father's name noted.
WALLACE THOMAS G1322/1910 -- ALICE -- BALMAIN SOUTH
edited to add another child without father noted"
Where is this information from? If its a transcription its not accurate.
Below that "edited to add another child without father noted" i also posted the other child just below that .. CROKER Rita Adeline 10916/1905 -- Alice -- Balmain
The above info come from NSW bdm
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I found a Doreen V Wallace b. Glebe 1913 but her grandparents are not in my Wallace family as far as i can find.
Further to the ages of those in the large photo.
If Doreen was born in 1913 she would be 16/17 years or so in the photo.
Clearly not.
Sue
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sonyao,
When you reply to the posts which have been researched by the forum members here, could you possibly tell us who the other people in the big photo are?
That is of course if you know. :D
Also, who is the other little girl in the first photo?
In my opinion the top girls are about 6 to7 years old and Doreen about 8 in the second photo.
The youngster, little Norma, born 1926 looks about 3 years or a little more.
So we could guess the picture was taken around 1929 or 1930
Putting it all together Doreen might have been born in the very early 1920's.
Sue
I have a slightly different opinion regarding ages in photos.
I think in the first photo, both girls are about 8- 9. If you know who the second girl is, then Doreen is born about the same year.
I think the second photo was taken quite a few years later. Doreen can’t be seen clearly, but she could be as old as mid-teens.
Hoping we hear back from Sonyao. :)
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Hi Neale,
It is interesting how we all make theories based on different things.
Don't laugh, but I have concluded the 2 girls age by looking at the "other" girl's teeth by enlarging and scrutinising the resulting blurry image of her mouth .!!
To me I see the dentitiion of a child aged 6 to 7 years.
Because they are about the same height, I then conclude same age.
I would gladly own up that it is not strong logic ;D
Sue
Adding, Looking at the seond picture, I see a girl in school tunic, but this may well be simply a dress in the pinafore style.
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Hi Have you got Alice May Stewarts death Certificate,
if so what are the names of Children listed, and their ages.
I am am wondering if Doreen was registered under other Given names, and was known within the family as Doreen.
Cass
I know this is a long shot, however in the Daily Telegraph 16.2.1946 page 15 there is an article about George Wallace, and it states that his mother remarried and had a daughter, Dorothy Fuller . Dorothy was also on the "stage " under the name of Bebe Scott. I found a photo of Dorothy on the Australian War Memorial Website https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C346988 , Do you think she could be your Doreen????
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Hi, even tho Doreen might be a member of the Wallace family she may have been born under a different surname.
Do you have any further information no matter how small that may help?
Could Doreen have been a foster child?
I have been researching this family for decades, it is such a dysfunctional family. Granddaughter said her aunt thought she may be the child off Dennis Wallace, unable to find a birth record for Dennis. Doreen lived with Alice Vaughan/Croker/Stewart why I don't know. Doreen is mentioned in the funeral notice once and just Doreen then again listed as one of her children. Thank you for trying
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Following on from Cass
etc... Mrs. K. Reading (the bride's mother) journeyed from Sydney for the wedding.
and etc ... The bride is a sister of the well-known comedian Mr. George Wallace.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/21995820
Marriage VIC
Registration number10305 / 1932
FULLER Dorothy Edith
RANDALL Geo Ebben
"before securing work with her half-brother George Wallace and his revue company (1929-30)."
https://www.discogs.com/artist/4701425-Bebe-Scott
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I found a Doreen V Wallace b. Glebe 1913 but her grandparents are not in my Wallace family as far as i can find.
Further to the ages of those in the large photo.
If Doreen was born in 1913 she would be 16/17 years or so in the photo.
Clearly not.
I agree. Thank you
Sue
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Thank you everyone who has taken the time to search on my behalf. You have all found what I have found over the past few years regarding Doreen and over the past decade or two regarding Alice and her family, who is the half sister of my maternal grandmother. I am a little overwhelmed by the response and find it difficult to navigate thru the messages, I seem to be going round in circles and not sure who I replied to and who I haven't please accept my apologies if I have missed your message and once again thank you all for supporting me in this quest.
Kind regards
Sonya
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So just to help with the flow...
Here is the re-marriage of George WALLACE's mother, Catherine Mary Ann.
123/1902 FULLER
HARRY B
WALLACE CATHERINE M A
SYDNEY
She divorced George
NRS-13495-29-[13/12560]-4023 | Divorce papers Catherine Mary Ann Wallace - George Stephenson Wallace
01-07-1901 to 18-12-1901
A news snip
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/114026501
NOTE. Catherine was nee SCOTT
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When i googled Bebe Scott it says she was born 1905, if this is the case it won't be her in the photo as she would have been a lot older than Doreen the girl in the photo.
It was worth checking out tho.
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No. I cannnot see a likeness in these photos.
There is a biography within.
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-388524559/view?sectionId=nla.obj-390540518&searchTerm=%22bebe+scott%22&partId=nla.obj-388540501#page/n50/mode/1up
Sue
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I know this is a long shot, however in the Daily Telegraph 16.2.1946 page 15 there is an article about George Wallace, and it states that his mother remarried and had a daughter, Dorothy Fuller . Dorothy was also on the "stage " under the name of Bebe Scott. I found a photo of Dorothy on the Australian War Memorial Website https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C346988 , Do you think she could be your Doreen????
This is a different George WALLACE. George Snr. had this one in 1895 with Catherine and then another, Thomas George sometimes known as just 'George' with Alice. It is the second one who was supposedly Doreen's brother.
Debra :)
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Alice Croker is sitting on the front of the photo nursing her grandchild Norma Baxter born 1926.
I am not good with photos but this doesn't seem right to me. When Norma was born her mother Rita was 21 years old, and in this photo Rita doesn't look to be in her early to mid twenties at all.
Debra :)
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Alice is holding the child, are you thinking the other woman seated (next to her) is Rita? She could be mid 20s.
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Hi sonyao,
Dont worry about replying to individuals. When you post on the board, everyone can see it and take note of your response. That way we move forward.
It would be good to know who the others in the photo are. If you are not sure, even hints from family stories can help.
Wonder who is the little boy next to the stated Rita. You do get the impression from their placement in the photo they are mother and son, but maybe not.
Sue
As a completly irrelevant aside, I love the building in the background advertising that it has Hot
Water ;D
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Alice Croker is sitting on the front of the photo nursing her grandchild Norma Baxter born 1926.
I don't see how that can be Norma with Alice.
This photo of Rita and (presumedly) Norma would have been taken around 1927.
The group photo surely would have been mid 30s. If Norma was in the photo I think she would be the girl on the left who looks a bit like Roy.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/169333648
Debra :)
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I have the divorce papers regarding Rita and her husband I have attached one page of the divorce which is a letter to Rita from Roy, this page is dated 1929 and states Norma is three and Betty three months. I spoke to Norma's husband more than a decade ago, Norma had recently passed away, he told me Norma was reared by her paternal grandmother and she didn't have a pleasant childhood. I am also attaching the back of the family group photo, I believe it was sent to my grandmother Doris.
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Ho sonyao,
So, the wording suggests to me that Rita ia not on the photo.
Alice was remarried by this time to Arthur Stewart and George S Wallace was living in Sydney. He would die in March 1931.
Do you think the man behind Alice might be Arthur Stewart?
The hand writing is neat and well-executed. Wonder who wrote the information.
Here is a nice video about George Wallace (the first George, not Thomas George) the comedian, son of Mary Catherine and George Stephenson Wallace.
Should work if you copy then paste into Google search.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yQTWw8ylxs
Sue
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According to Arthur and Alice's' marriage certificate Arthur was a fireman.
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Yes, that is correct as it agrees with the Electoral roll information in 1930 when they both lived at 10 Booth Street, Balmain.
So do we think the man in the photo behind Alice is Arthur?
Sue
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Yes I do. This is such a frustrating mystery, sadly there aren't any family members still with us that I can ask. Too many conversations missed too many questions unanswered .
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Yes. It is very frustrating for you.
How is it known that the child in the first photo is Doreen. Is that on the back of the photo?
Sue
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On the back of the photo it says 'Doreen and her little friend taken in the back yard.
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Doreen I believe lived with Alice Croker/Stewart at some stage in her childhood so she must have attended school. When Alice married Arthur Stewart in 1926 she gave her address as Gladesville. Is it possible to find pupil records for the 1920s please.
Sonya
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School records are generally held at the State Archives.
You would have to know exactly what school she attended, I think.
Here is a link for the Admission register for Gladesville Public School starting in 1924.
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/primo-explore/fulldisplay?docid=ADLIB_RNSW110020070&context=L&vid=61SRA&lang=en_US&search_scope=Everything&adaptor=Local%20Search%20Engine&tab=default_tab&query=any,contains,Gladesville%20school&offset=10
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Thank you for the information. I live in a small country town on the NSW - Victorian border so it looks like 'back to the drawing board' for me.
Sonya
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Arthur and Alice lived at 10 Booth street, Balmain from at least 1930 to 1937 before moving to Blaxland Street.
24 October 1935
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/246580873
Certificates have been won by Gwendoline Barr, 371 Lyons Road, Five Dock; Doreen Stewart (11), 10 Booth Street, Balmain; Irene Power (12), 112 Greenhills..........
This makes her born around 1924.
STEWART may not have been her birth surname but Arthur had lots of siblings so plenty of scope there for her to belong to someone in his family. I don't know if he had been previously married but Doreen is not mentioned in his death notice, just a son named Terrence.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19560913&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (page 10)
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19560916&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (page 1)
They mixed up his wife's first name in the first notice.
Debra :)
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That's a good find Debra.
Also:
"POWELL - The relatives and friends of Mr J LOWE, and Mr and Mrs ARTHUR STEWART, Mrs F MASON and DOREEN are invitied to attend the funeral of his dearly beloved DAUGHTER, their SISTER, and SISTER-IN-LAW, Charlotte (Carrie) Powell, to leave the residence of her sister, 10 Booth Street, Balmain ..."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17407636
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We must not forget that Alice Vaughan was born 1877.
A 1924 baby would have been surprise ;D
Also this item about a nasty assault upon her, (1895) she confirms it when she states her age as "about 19"
Sue
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Thank you so much Debra, I think you have 'Cracked The Case' Living at 10 Booth Street Balmain was Alice's' sister Charlotte Vaughan and her husband Edward Powell, Charlotte 'Carrie' Died from stomach cancer in 1937 which is probably why Alice and Arthur moved out. All that needs to happen now is to prove which member of the family Doreen belongs to as Carrie and Arthur were childless.
I sincerely want to thank you and all the members of Rootschat for their support and information given to me these last few weeks.
Kind regards
Sonya
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Thank you Sue, I didn't know about the assault on Alice, I am finding so much more information than I thought possible, could you please tell me where you found that information so I can add it to my family tree.
Regards
Sonya
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Hi Sonya,
Link to item
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/104849283?searchTerm=%22alice%20%20croker%22~12%20-island
It was an unpleasant read.
I found it on the Trove newspaper site.
Getting started with newspaper searches
Use this link as a starter
https://trove.nla.gov.au/
How do you search for newspapers in Trove?
In the Search box at the top of the Trove homepage, enter a keyword for what you want to search. Ensure that the keyword is spelled correctly – Trove will search exactly what is entered. 2. Select Newspapers & Gazettes from the Advanced Search drop-down menu underneath the green magnifying glass button.
Your search has been interesting and challenging I think. ::)
Sue