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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: gtoal on Monday 19 June 23 20:13 BST (UK)
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I have a pretty good knowledge of my forebears going back several generations, with one big exception... Let me tell you my family tale in the hope that it might ring a bell for someone who can help fill in the blanks...
My grandfather was Thomas Graham, died 1961 (when I was 2, though I do remember some details about him such as the smell of his tobacco!) and born, we now think, around 1897. He was married to my granny Elizabeth Stirling (1895-1991) in 1920.
A few years after my granny died, my mother pulled me aside and told me this story, saying that she wasn't able to tell me while my gran was alive as she would have been mortified by embarrassment. How times change. What she told me was this: my grandfather had been the illegitimate son of his mother who was a seamstress in service to a noble family, and his father who was one of the family - whether an older adult or a young son, I never heard. The name I heard from my mother was Colin Campbell - possibly Sir Colin Campbell, though I can't identify an appropriate Colin Campbell of the right age. My mother said he was the clan chief but with a second-hand story that was probably only spoken of to her one time as it was to me, there's a lot of scope for errors and mis-remembering.
Anyway, as told to me, the illegitimate child was sent to an orphanage in London, and my mother said that the Graham surname came from the owner of the orphan's home, though I haven't been able to find a Graham orphanage in the UK at the turn of the century, never mind one in London. This was one of those places for the offspring of the rich where they would be taken care of to an acceptable standard - not one of those Victorian squalls for the poor that you might read of in old novels. It's possible it wasn't an orphanage as such but more a sort of placement service to find acceptable adopted homes for these children.
My grandmother did meet grandad's mother, but I never found out her name at the time, though subsequent research might suggest a Louisa Ann Harris from Wales. There's a birth certificate that might be for my grandfather that has her as the mother and another Thomas Graham as the father, but that may be covering up an adoption. Or it may be a birth certificate for a completely different Thomas Graham. This lady was a seamstress when my grandmother met her, she may not have been, when she was in service to the Campbells.
(There's one piece of indirect evidence that may back this up... Ancestry DNA's geographical inference system says my mother's side of the family appear to be 60% Scottish and 36% Welsh. However all the known ancestors from my mother's side are extremely Scots, but one of my mother's 4 grandparents being 100% Welsh would go a long way towards explaining that result.)
My grandmother told my mum that she once went to the Campbell family seat to ask the family to acknowledge the parentage. Apparently this was really important to her, but she relates that they denied it and unceremoniously turned her away at the door.
I can't vouch for the details of any of this but clearly the overall gist has to have some truth to it, because it was so embarrassing to my grandmother that she'd have no incentive to invent any of it. Being born on the wrong side of the blanket - even to a noble family - was not something to brag on in those days.
My gran and grandad both worked in domestic service in their early married years - he was a "Gentleman's Gentleman" but also served in the Royal Artillery during WWI. I'm not sure what my gran did. She had run away from her family in her teenage years - her mother was a Victorian tyrant by all accounts (especially hers) - her father slipped her some money to help get away. She worked in a bakery that first month and slept on the floor of the bakery, and since they didn't pay in advance she subsisted on baps from the bakery. The tale she told me one time sounded truly awful.
Anyway, if anyone knows of an orphanage or similar in London around 1897, connected to the surname Graham, I'ld love to get confirmation of this family lore.
Ironically, on looking into my own ancestry (mainly to humour my American wife, who is fascinated by this stuff), it turns out that my grandmother and I are actually directly descended from a whole line of Sir Colin Campbells from the 1300's through the 1500's - all on the proper side of the blanket! Totally by coincidence, and my parents and grandparents were entirely unaware of the connection!
Sir Colin Campbell, "The Grey Laird" 6th Laird Glenorchy, Campbell 1512-1583 - My 15th great-grandfather
Lady Margaret (Margaretha) Campbell Baroness Duart 1552-1610
William Cunningham 8th Earl of Glencairn 1575-1631
William Cunningham, 9th Earl of Glencairn 1610-1664
Alexander Cunningham 10th Earl of Glencairn, 10th Earl of Kilmaurs 1636-1670
Countess Margaret Cunningham
Charles Maitland, 6th Earl of Lauderdale 1688-1778
James Maitland, 7th Earl of Lauderdale
Jean Maitland Lady of Lauderdale 1703-1766
William Fergusson 1734-1778
Margaret Fergusson 1755-
Robert Mochrie 1778-1848
Helen Mochrie 1810-1898
Alexander Stirling 1842
John F Stirling 1864-1937
Elizabeth Smith Stirling 1895-1991
Elizabeth Doris Stirling Graham 1927-2020
sincerely,
Graham Toal - the son of Elizabeth Doris Stirling Graham, and grandson of Thomas Graham and Elizabeth Stirling.
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There were a great many children's homes of various sorts. The story that has been passed down seems to have a number of exaggerations (not unusual, certainly), and I would not recommend you start this search by trying to look for one connected to the name "Graham" as that part of the story sounds like one of the exaggerations to me.
Two obvious bits of paperwork you should be able to get access to:
1. What does his marriage certificate say about his parentage? He might not have known the full truth but this might at least confirm his mother's name.
2. Is he on the 1921 census in either England, Wales, Scotland? What does that record say about him (for example, birthplace?)
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I would want to look at the birth certificate you have found - the information on it may or may not be true, but the first thing is to establish if it does relate to your grandfather, and if it does what were the circumstances of the registration....particularly who the informant was, what addresses they gave, were the parents married (or claiming to be), was it a registration by joint informants ...etc ?
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From a published tree - marriage 1920
Thomas Graham, 27 yrs, Valet (residence Stoneyhill House, Musselburgh
Parents Thomas Graham, Ship Steward, deceased and Louisa Graham M S Harris, deceased.
This would give a year of birth around 1894.
Do you have the family in 1921? If so, does he give a place of birth?
Do you have a WW1 military record for him? Any details there?
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There is a Military Card for that Thomas;
Name: Thomas Graham
Gender: Male
Rank: Gnr
Record Type: Disability
Birth Date: 1893
Residence Place:Stoneyhill Cottages Musselburgh
Discharge Date: 15 Dec 1919
Service Number: 126706
Corps, Regiment or Unit: Royal Garrison Artillery
Service Branch: Military (Army)
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Good find Trish. :)
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He is pretty consistent with his age, his service record from November 1916 states that he was 24 years 5 months. Next of kin, Mrs Bessie MITCHELL, 40 Hallpark, Quarry Place, near Alloa, friend.
There's a birth certificate that might be for my grandfather that has her as the mother and another Thomas Graham as the father
Can you please give all the details from this certificate?
Debra :)
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His address November 1916 was Alloa House, Alloa and he was a Footman.
There is a letter in the record which says he joined in 1915 at Stirling Castle.
The letter is dated 1924 and the address, Stoneyhill Cottages, Musselburgh.
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Thank you everyone! You've found some good leads that we did not find. What we have already appears in this page on our combined tree ( https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/tree/170696323/family?cfpid=132216653313 ) which is managed by my wife Anne: https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/170696323/person/132216653313/facts
I checked with Anne right now as to whether we have a copy of a birth certificate. What was saved on the web page above was: "1939 England and Wales Register. The National Archives; Kew, London, England; 1939 Register; Reference: RG 101/3085D; The National Archives; Kew, London, England; 1939 Register; Reference: RG 101/3085D" - she tells me I was wrong, the info came off the marriage certificate, not a birth certificate. I'll try to attach it to this post. The mother is listed as Louisa Graham (nee Harris) Deceased. The father is Thomas Graham (ship steward) Deceased. There's a small chance neither fact is true. The address is Stoneyhill House which is interesting - it may have been where they were working, it's not among the places in Musselburgh (where my mother was born) that she ever pointed out to me as places where she had lived as a child.
You may have pushed his birthdate back a few years from what we thought - or possibly he lied about his age in order to join up while still underage?
I didn't know he worked in Alloa! Great find. Thank you all for this, I really didn't expect such a great response!
Graham
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Marriage certificate and death certificate are in the gallery: https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/170696323/person/132216653313/gallery?galleryPage=1 - no new information in the death certificate that I can see.
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I posted the marriage information earlier from your tree.
The links you are posting only give access to those who have subscriptions.
Do you have them in the 1921 census? That might help with Thomas’ birthplace.
There is a Thomas Graham, 28 yrs in Musselburgh in the indexes who may be worth checking.
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The entry in Musselburgh is the right one, heywood :)
Thomas was working as butler to the Duke of Atholl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stewart-Murray,_8th_Duke_of_Atholl
He showed as married with no children. Birth place given as Essex London.
Came across this birth entry at the St Pancras Workhouse:
Thomas Harris
Birth 2 Feb 1891
Birth Poor Law Union St Pancras Camden, England
Birth Place St Pancras, Camden, England
Mother Louisa Harris
Parish Register
Monica
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Thanks Monica :)
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He is pretty consistent with his age, his service record from November 1916 states that he was 24 years 5 months.
It occurs to me that an earlier birthdate of June 1892 puts this guy back in the contenders, who had been my original assumption for the biological father except that that the original 1897 belief had eliminated him, as he died in 1895...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Colin_Campbell
The photo is from 1890 so quite representative of the time in question.
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The entry in Musselburgh is the right one, heywood :)
Thomas was working as butler to the Duke of Atholl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stewart-Murray,_8th_Duke_of_Atholl
He showed as married with no children. Birth place given as Essex London.
Came across this birth entry at the St Pancras Workhouse:
Thomas Harris
Birth 2 Feb 1891
Birth Poor Law Union St Pancras Camden, England
Birth Place St Pancras, Camden, England
Mother Louisa Harris
Parish Register
Monica
That's amazing! That certainly fits! (and would you believe that by coincidence I lived less than a mile from St Pancras when I worked in London.)
Perhaps later she married a Thomas Graham who kept the boy as his own? I'm afraid not a word about my grandfather's youth was ever passed on to me so I don't know if he was brought up in a family or in an orphanage. And there's no-one left alive that I know of who would know. I was the only one to be told the little I've already related - it was news to my cousins when I asked them about it.
heywood: apologies, I didn't realise all our info on ancestry was behind their pay wall :-(
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With a birth date in February 1891, this Thomas should show on the 1891 census (checking both Harris or Graham). This was taken on 5 April. Can't see an entry for him though :-\
Monica
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Came across this birth entry at the St Pancras Workhouse:
Thomas Harris
Birth 2 Feb 1891
Birth Poor Law Union St Pancras Camden, England
Birth Place St Pancras, Camden, England
Mother Louisa Harris
Religious creed register
Admitted 2 Feb 1891
Louisa Harris
Born 1855
Admitted from an address in Kings Cross Road
Seems to say she was married
Two images
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3N2-TFVG
Thomas Harris, born of Louisa, is down the page.
They were discharged 16.2.91
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My grandmother did meet grandad's mother, but I never found out her name at the time, though subsequent research might suggest a Louisa Ann Harris from Wales
Did your grandmother remain in Scotland ? It’s a long shot but was grandad’s mother living in Scotland too?
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See next post
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There is another baptism
Thomas Harris - parents Alfred, a French Polisher and Louisa
12th February 1891 Abode - Workhouse
Sorry Jon :)
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My grandmother did meet grandad's mother, but I never found out her name at the time, though subsequent research might suggest a Louisa Ann Harris from Wales
Did your grandmother remain in Scotland ? It’s a long shot but was grandad’s mother living in Scotland too?
Yes, my grandparents lived in Musselburgh. I don't know where Louisa Harris went on to work, but I do know my grandmother did meet her at some point (by which time she was a seamstress - presumably at the time of the birth she had a lower position in that household). I don't know where my grandmother went to meet her but I doubt it was very far away - I can't see her going to Wales, or London, to see her. It looks like Lord Colin was living in London at the relevant time - at Argyll Lodge, Campden Hill, Kensington. I'm not really sure what conclusion to draw from that - perhaps that Louisa Harris was sent away after the birth to start a new life and she went to Scotland to do so?
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The Campbells were living in London at that time.
With regard to the Thomas Harris birth and baptism, there is an Alfred Harris, French Polisher, living in St Pancras with two sons in 1881 and 1891.
In 1901 151 /75/11 he is living in the workhouse.
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Looking at the Bowes-Lyon family tree, Lord Colin's parents (The Duke & Duchess of Argyll) have so many children and descendants that if one of them had taken an Ancestry test, wouldn't I expect to see a DNA match? I'm wondering whether it's one of these conventions that either the nobility just don't do them or if they do, they have a way to request keeping the results private? I guess relationships like this are exactly what they would not want to find! And all the legitimate ones are already well documented, so why ever take a test...?
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From https://web.archive.org/web/20100519163207/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/4813841/Inside-story-79-Cadogan-Place.html
"It was only when Lady Colin tried to divorce her husband on the grounds of his adultery with a maid that the scandal began. He cross-petitioned on the grounds of his wife's adultery with four named co-respondents. In the end, the jury found none of the adultery allegations proved and the couple, while judicially separated, remained man and wife until Lord Colin's death in 1895 from his syphilis."
This particular incident with a maid would appear to be several years too early for that maid to be Louisa Harris, but it does suggest a pattern! (the article above was from 1887)
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Lord Colin Campbell died in Bombay in 1895.
There are various newspaper snippets which place him in Bombay in 1890 and later where he worked as a barrister.
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Lord Colin Campbell died in Bombay in 1895.
There are various newspaper snippets which place him in Bombay in 1890 and later where he worked as a barrister.
Do they say when in 1890? If that Feb 1891 birth date is for the right person then we're interested in his whereabouts around early May 1890... The photo in Wikipedia is captioned "Lord Colin Campbell, Elliott & Fry Studio in London, 1890".
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Newspaper archives FindMyPast snippets
1888
Lord Colin Campbell was admitted a member of the Bombay bar
1890 13th May - Campbeltown Courier
“From Bombay come kind reports of Lord Colin Campbell, who works hard and steadily and unassumedly. He is however not too well, and should take a run home before the monsoon”
(I can’t see the rest)
1890 6th August - Madras Weekly Mail
Plord Colin Campbell mentioned with others
There are others later in the year
There may be a gap where he could have returned or, on the other hand, just no mentions of his work etc.
You can view the snippets without a subscription.
Perhaps the Campbeltown Courier has archives?
Added
13th May snippet - ‘before the monsoon’
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You can also look at snippets on The British Newspaper Archive.
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Thanks, heywood. You folks here really know your way around data sources we never even heard of. You've found more in a couple of days than we did in years. It's appreciated.
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Just seen this so have not read all the posts but when I saw Colin Campbell I immediately thought The Dukes of Argyll!
Not sure but can look it up, when one of the Royal Family married into the family ,I seem to remember Louise.She was profoundly deaf .
So the Argyll family were elevated a notch to Dukes,at Inveraray but they would be in Edinburgh and London quite a bit.
I think the Campbell Victoria married was John ,but Colin appears quite often in that family.
Just a thought.
Viktoria,
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regarding the DNA Louisa harris may have had welsh parents or grandparents but not necessarily lived in wales herself
i agree about not looking for GRAHAM or CAMPBELL surnames among your matches but look for clusters of high matches and see if any locations come up as well as any significant surnames
Its important to link your dna results to your tree sometimes others can find matches by triangulating with matches to their own families , for example if i match someone at 3rd cousin level who does not know their birth father i can calculate probable great great grandparents because of our shared matches . there are some good techniques like colour coding + success stories on the dna board
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Hi, I'm Graham's wife. I am astonished at the amount of new info you've shared here. Would you mind posting links to where you're getting it all from? When I looked up the 1821 Scottish Census, I found links to road indices but no digitized indexed data. Undoubtedly I'm looking in the wrong place. Would you please help me out?
Thank you so much for all the wonderful information that you've uncovered.
Anne Toal
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There is another baptism
Thomas Harris - parents Alfred, a French Polisher and Louisa
12th February 1891 Abode - Workhouse
Could you please post a link to this source?
Thanks
Anne
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Sorry Anne. I found it in Ancestry here:
All London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1923
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Thank you very much!
Anne
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As to the baptism record of 12th Feb, it's almost certain that applies to the same birth as 2nd Feb.
Assuming this is the child who grew up to be Thomas Graham, ...
It implies that Louisa Ann Harris that we found from Glamorgan, Wales, may not be the Louisa Harris who was presumably married to Alfred Harris, the French Polisher and that we should search out marriages between any Louisa - surname unknown - and Alfred Harris of an appropriate age.
The Welsh connection was inferred from finding Louisa Ann Harris born in Wales but I would point out that I don't remember any mention of Thomas's mother being Welsh. The Welsh thing may be a rabbit hole. The only reliable documentation we have - Grandad's birth and death certificates - just say Louisa Graham (Nee Harris) (deceased) - I think the "Ann" was a mistake on our part from thinking that Louisa Ann Harris born in Wales was the same person as Louisa Harris. I suspect we inferred that she was not already married from the combination of youth - and getting made pregnant by the head of the household where she was in service. So next little adventure would be to identify the maiden name of Louisa Harris.
Note that if she was indeed dead at the time my Grandparents got married, my Gran could only have met her during her engagement, and it does seem plausible that would be when she would want to meet her prospective mother-in-law. Who, if she was indeed deceased by the date of the marriage certificate in 1920, would likely have died between 1918 and 1920, given that it's likely my grandparents met after his return from the war/de-mob from the army in 1918 or 1919?
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Alfred HARRIS, french polisher, was living in St Pancras in 1891. He was a widower and had been married to (Sarah) Elizabeth HOBBS. I personally doubt that he was married to Louisa.
This is probably the birth registration of Thomas.
HARRIS, THOMAS
No mother's maiden name
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 108
Because there is no mother's maiden name indexed it is possible that only the mother is named with a surname of HARRIS. It is equally possible that the father is named as Alfred HARRIS and the mother is named as Louisa XXXX. The maiden name would only be indexed if she was named as 'Louisa HARRIS formerly XXXX'. In the spirit of leaving no stone unturned it would be worth getting the certificate to see what it says.
Debra :)
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I agree that HARRIS was most likely Louisa s Surname name and she was unmarried so no maiden name to look for .
Even if there is a baptism a father could be named but invented .
Was Thomas still around in 1939 ? Have you found him on the 1939 register ? What date of birth is given .
Btw when you said your gran met her mother-in -law could it have been a foster mother nottne birth mother who she met ?
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Was Thomas still around in 1939 ? Have you found him on the 1939 register ? What date of birth is given.
Btw when you said your gran met her mother-in -law could it have been a foster mother nottne birth mother who she met ?
We'll look for him in that 1939 Census. I don't know for certain but my understanding was that Thomas grew up in an orphanage rather than a family home, and although he knew who his mother was, he was not brought up by her. I remember my mother saying that Granny had reported visiting the mother who was by that time a seamstress, and a respectable woman. I'm near certain this was the birth mother - I've never heard a hint of there being an adoptive family. Remember this was all a family disgrace that was never spoken of so I've only got bits and pieces of it from what I may have gleaned as a child and from exactly two conversations on the subject with my mother in later life - the first as a teenager when I wasn't paying a great deal of attention, and one a few years before my own mother's death, where we have a combination of her reluctance to talk about it coupled with her failing memory. I believe her exact words when asked for more detail were "the book is closed on that subject."
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It wasn't a census it was an identity register, and as he lived in Scotland you will have to apply for an extract.
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/national-register
I would first check if they give the date of birth because it would be pointless to just get his age unless they give it in years, months and days so that you can work it out yourself.
Details of people who are contained within the 1939 Register who have since died are now being made available. Please be aware that due to the fact that this register is more modern than the Scottish census, which is closed for a 100 year period, it is only possible to provide limited information on the named individual; namely their address in 1939, marital status, age and occupation.
Debra :)
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They do provide a date of birth, you can see a sample here:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=735513.0
Debra :)
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I have just looked again at the Military record for Thomas Graham.
I think I am understanding this correctly, but on the page after his 1924 letter with address Stoneyhill Cottages, there is his discharge details.
The address on there is the address, 23 Saughton Hall, Murrayfield, Edinburgh. - 1919
There is then an address 30 Forth View, Wallyford, Midlothian which might be Musselburgh?
On a conduct sheet, it says he is 24 yrs, 5 months , was born in London, is a Footman and enlisted in Birmingham. Another page says he joined at Stirling.
Some of these details have been mentioned, possibly, but not sure about those two addresses.
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Wallyford is half a mile up the hill from Musselburgh - certainly a place that someone from Musselburgh would consider looking for housing in. My own mother moved to Prestonpans when she married - about a mile east of Musselburgh and Wallyford. So I can believe that.
The Stirling enlistment: that is very plausible because I think Stirling Castle was one of the places where he worked as a valet. I have an old memory of having a picnic in the park as a very young child and my mother pointing it out to me.
G
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There was a Louisa Ellen Spickett born 1860 in Boughton Blean, Kent who married Alfred Thomas Harris (1859? 1861? Woolwich, Kent) in 1881.
(possibly this notice: https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/8913/images/ONS_M18814AZ-1048?pId=27109438 )
The couple show up in the 1891 England Census as married, with two children Charlotte (1882?) and Mary (1884?).
https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/12738442:6598?queryId=f11323ddca17b78a952612387b18c2e0&_phsrc=SXS700&_phstart=successSource
There's a family tree on Ancestry: https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/157889452/person/242074331871/facts
which adds a son, Charles Sydney Herbert Harris, 1889-1979. Woolwich, Kent.
If this turns out to be the right Louisa Harris, her forebears are quite well documented in https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/tree/157889452/family?cfpid=242074331871&fpid=242074331871&usePUBJs=true
Louisa Spickett had 3 siblings - Ellen F (1856-1934), John T (1858-1932) and George W (1862-1908) - George W had 9 children and many grandchildren - definitely some scope for potential DNA checks to confirm whether this Louisa Harris nee Spicket is Thomas Graham's mother as suggested by the St Pancras documents ... but this all depends on Louisa Harris later becoming Louisa Graham and the child Thomas Harris becoming Thomas Graham. Which means a divorce from Thomas Harris (if they were indeed married; and unlikely as common folks didn't tend to divorce much in those days) or Alfred Harris dying and Louisa remarrying.
I can't find a death date for either one.
(However, here is where this line of enquiry starts to look like a rabbit hole... when looking for Alfred Thomas Harris, the best I can find is Thomas Alfred G Harris born in 1860 in Boughton Under Blean, Kent ... who has a sister Louisa Ellen born 1864! I'm thinking (or at least hoping!) this one is a coincidence and not the husband of Louisa!)
Graham
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The records for Louisa Spiller Harris don’t match the record for Thomas Harris born St Pancras with mother Louisa. :-\
Births for Harris/Spiller, Woolwich
1891 June quarter Alfred Harris - death 1891
1892 Louisa - death 1892
1893 Violet Emily
I think you can discount that lady.
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Wallyford is half a mile up the hill from Musselburgh - certainly a place that someone from Musselburgh would consider looking for housing in.
I wonder who lived at that address in 1919?
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The records for Louisa Spiller Harris don’t match the record for Thomas Harris born St Pancras with mother Louisa. :-\
I think you can discount that lady.
That's not the person I'm looking at. It was Spickett, not Spiller. Although one record does have it spelled as Spickelt but that one is likely a handwriting issue.
I'll attach as many of the pointers to documentation as I can in this post and will add the rest to my next reply.
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The remaining hints:
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I do apologise - sorry.
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Nothing to apologise for.
It looks like that Spickett lead - despite a good match of dates and names - must be a dead end, as I contacted the great granddaughter of Louisa Ellen Spickett's father (through her brother George) and we've both taken Ancestry DNA tests but neither of us show up in the other's matches. I have to take that as definitive, and start looking for Louisa Harris again elsewhere.
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There is then an address 30 Forth View, Wallyford, Midlothian which might be Musselburgh?
The 1915 Valuation Rolls show an Alexander Fleming as tenant at this address. 1920 has a David Marr as tenant.
The address on there is the address, 23 Saughton Hall, Murrayfield, Edinburgh. - 1919
There are no numbers showing for Saughton Hall on the VRs around then. The owner of Saughton Hall in those years was Sir William James Gardiner Baird, 8th Baronet (1854–1921).
Monica
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I am not sure what you are looking for here. Do you think this is a different Louisa than the St Pancras one and therefore a different possibility for your Thomas?
Alfred and Louisa, with Mary and Charlotte are at 1901 743 /5 /1
They are also in 1911.
*you have answered this whilst I was writing my reply. :)
You mention a tree in your earlier post where there is a child added:
Charles Sydney Herbert Harris b 1889 Woolwich. His mothers name was Spiller which is where I got my information re Harris/Spiller.
added
Thanks Monica :)
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Thomas was working as butler to the Duke of Atholl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stewart-Murray,_8th_Duke_of_Atholl
He showed as married with no children. Birth place given as Essex London.
Thanks - we now have that entry from the 1921 census. It's interesting that my grandmother wasn't listed in the same house as they'd been married in 1920. Maybe she was out of town on Census day.
Age 28 and 9 months on Census Day 19 Jun 1921 suggests that Thomas Graham believed his birthdate to be around September 1892?
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There is a Military Card for that Thomas;
Name: Thomas Graham
Gender: Male
Rank: Gnr
Record Type: Disability
Birth Date: 1893
Residence Place:Stoneyhill Cottages Musselburgh
Discharge Date: 15 Dec 1919
Service Number: 126706
Corps, Regiment or Unit: Royal Garrison Artillery
Service Branch: Military (Army)
I note 1893 as yet another contender for birth year. It looks to me like he wasn't sure himself of the date.
Trish, can you show me where to find this Military Card please, so we can link it as a source in our web page for Thomas?
thanks,
Graham
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He is pretty consistent with his age, his service record from November 1916 states that he was 24 years 5 months.
That would place a birthday in June 1892? (I'm working through all the places where we have an age to try to determine a plausible birthdate. If indeed he knew it and didn't just make one up.)
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So at the moment, this is our working hypothesis:
He showed as married with no children. Birth place given as Essex London.
Came across this birth entry at the St Pancras Workhouse:
Thomas Harris
Birth 2 Feb 1891
Birth Poor Law Union St Pancras Camden, England
Birth Place St Pancras, Camden, England
Mother Louisa Harris
Parish Register
However there's no link here to any Graham and the year is off a little from what he reported later.
So it occurs to me we can test the null hypothesis for a contradiction: if this *isn't* the person who was later known as Thomas Graham, then he is likely to have remained as Thomas Harris for the rest of his life so we just need to see if we can find a reference to Thomas Harris born at St Pancras on 2 Feb 1891 who still uses that name later in life after my grandfather was known as Thomas Graham. Although coincidences of name and year abound, finding an exact match to the birth day and location would be beyond the bounds of coincidence.
I've started looking; haven't found one yet.
Graham
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Religious creed register
Admitted 2 Feb 1891
Louisa Harris
Born 1855
Admitted from an address in Kings Cross Road
Seems to say she was married
Two images
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3N2-TFVG
Thomas Harris, born of Louisa, is down the page.
They were discharged 16.2.91
Thanks Jon! Sorry, took me a little while to realise it wasn't behind a pay wall. (Unless you consider being posthumously baptized as a Mormon a form of payment, but I'll worry about that after I'm dead ;-) )
That 1855 birth date for Louisa Harris may prove very useful.
Here are the entries you found:
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Nothing to apologise for.
It looks like that Spickett lead - despite a good match of dates and names - must be a dead end, as I contacted the great granddaughter of Louisa Ellen Spickett's father (through her brother George) and we've both taken Ancestry DNA tests but neither of us show up in the other's matches. I have to take that as definitive, and start looking for Louisa Harris again elsewhere.
I wrote earlier that Charles Sydney Herbert Harris’ mother is Louisa Spiller - the cause of the confusion - you might want to inform your contact ;)
Going by hints isn’t good as people often use names without any real evidence.
However, DNA matches are better. Have you had any matches maybe from the London/Essex area etc that might be useful?
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However, DNA matches are better. Have you had any matches maybe from the London/Essex area etc that might be useful?
I wish. Unfortunately the numbers are overwhelming just to browse the matches - 9,433 maternal matches and another 2890 not yet assigned to a specific parent! However only a couple of hundred matches are given when you ask for geographical info (see attached map). There were very few matches in London and none plausible even when expanding the radius. Though it may be that using the US-based Ancestry.com for the DNA test has caused a bias of matches from the US - several hundred compared to only 50 in total from the UK. I've also searched for matches with relevant surnames - Graham, Campbell, and Harris - and not found significant numbers or plausibly identifiable links different from any other surname.
There were only 3 matches in London - one was clearly Scottish (all Scots surnames) and one was a paternal relative (and Irish surnames) and the third had a private tree so no clues there.
If the Ancestry service had an API where I could programmatically access the trees of all the DNA matches I might be able to do some statistical analysis of the family names and perhaps identify some significant geographical cluster, but basically all they tell you is the six most common surnames (and who isn't related to some Smiths somewhere...) and everything else you have to work out, by manually browsing the trees of your 10,000 relatives, or at least the ones that are public. It's all rather hit or miss.
I really appreciate the help you and your fellow group members have given - I really didn't expect that people would actually go research on our behalf when I posted - I had just hoped that someone might have recognised some aspect of my story - so I'm amazed and grateful for your help, but also it's frustrating that despite finding out lots of new info on my grandfather, I'm no closer to knowing why he was given the surname Graham and hence why I was too! That was one of the main things I was hoping to discover from this exercise. You know I had always worn the Graham tartan and thought it was my clan so it came as a bit of a surprise to say the least that I had no connection to the Grahams at all!
G
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Some significant new information! In going through Thomas Graham's army papers we found the page below where he declared his next-of-kin.
I'm not 100% sure of the Christian name - It looks like Hannah but at a stretch could be Marrian or Marriam although most variants of those have only 1 'r' so I've been concentrating on Hannah. But the surname and the word 'Mother' is clear. It looks like Mrs Hannah Graham Barrett, with the Graham scored out. There's also the word "man's" to the right but I cannot see "man's"-what? - maybe Man's address?
The address is 310 Hornsey Road, Holloway, London. It looks like he gave the info in 1914.
This could be his adoptive mother!
I tried searching in the 1911 census but I don't have a way to search by street address to see who lives there. I've spent most of this evening searching but haven't yet found a plausible match for Hannah Barrett, Hannah Graham, or Hannah Graham Barrett.
The scoring out of the word Graham in her name is either because the person transcribing the information expected Thomas Graham's mother to also have the Graham surname, but she didn't and he got ahead of himself copying down what Thomas said; or she *was* Hannah Graham or Hannah Graham Barrett but her husband had died recently and she was reverting to her maiden name. Or something else entirely different as to which I cannot guess.
Do you know of any way to pin this person down or the occupants of the given address in 1914? Especially if there was a proper legal adoption.
Thanks,
Graham
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You are looking at the wrong soldier's records, Thomas' regimental number was 126706.
Debra :)
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Phew! Thanks. Very confusing, they're all sequential and all say Thomas Graham.
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You say you 100s of DNA matches to sort thru
But there are ways of narrowing down search parameters using the filters
For example use
location search + colour code all your top matches with London connection
You can also have a colour code for particular surnames found on trees
The option of tree owners surname can be useful
But I prefer surname found on tree
Look at tree of highest match + try the filter search with surnames of each of their great grandparents
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=862688.0
* people often neglect to compare their ethnicity with their matches but it can be very useful
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You say you 100s of DNA matches to sort thru
But there are ways of narrowing down search parameters using the filters
For example use location search + colour code all matches with London connection
You can also have a colour code for particular surnames found on trees
The option of tree owners surname can be useful
But I prefer surname found on tree
Look at tree of highest match + try the filter search with surnames of each of their great grandparents
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=862688.0
I'm often finding new features at Ancestry.com that I wasn't aware of, so I'm not going to say that doing the above is impossible, but I have no idea how to do it yet. There's 10,000+ DNA matches, but less than 200 show up on the map. I don't see any way to search by location of people in the tree of those matches. The only search by name is a blanket search of a given surname against anyone in the tree of a DNA match or against the surname of a DNA match themselves.
Something complex like finding a DNA match to someone who has a great-anything grandparent who lived or was born/died in a specific town seems impossible. I think Ancestry would have to allow direct access to SQL queries to do that, but as far as I can see there's no API for the public. (I programmed SQL databases for about 3 years. I'ld be able to use direct access if it were available.)
And repeatedly the most interesting possible links turn out to be behind private trees, and our success rate at asking for access has been dismal. We've made ours open but people seem unwilling to reciprocate.
I'ld love to try the things you're suggesting but either you're used to a different DNA service with more useful search options, or more likely, my difficulties are because I still have a long way to go to learn the tricks to use Ancestry's one because they're not obvious to me - for instance, I did just in the last 10 minutes discover the "Shared Matches" tool and that has opened up the possibility of a whole lot of new insights. So I'm getting there slowly...
G
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I added a link after posting my reply
I hope you find it useful
Have you looked at your ethnicity breakdown on both parents side
+ Compared with DNA matches .
For example if you have a significant amount of Welsh or if you have a small percentage of an unexpected ethnicity
Norwegian Swedish are common finds
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When you look at your DNA matches choose the middle option view matches
(Not the location option )
Then choose the parental side you wish to view parent 1 or parent 2 which you need to label yourself as fathers side or mother side
After choosing parent you have to choose view matches again
In the top right press the magnifying 🔎
It will give you 3 choices
Surname of matches
Surnames in matches tree
Birth Location
Only fill one section in for each search
Don't use the alternative spelling option
Look at your highest match first
If they have a closed tree you could try putting their surname in the middle section and see if you have other matches with that surname
When you click on a shared matches profile you have 3 options
To look at their tree
Compare your ethnicity
Look at your mutual matches
So you could add a colour dot to all the people who match your top match.
There are images on the link I sent about colour coding
Good luck let me know if you work it out or if you can't
Tips : *
Only fill in one section at a time
After selecting your search name or place Press the blue search bottom underneath
+ NOT the 🔍 again ( which will clear your s reen for a new search ).
That's a mistake I often make 😆 😂
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This is useful too
https://www.yourdnaguide.com/leeds-method
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Ethnicity comparison is often neglected but in your case could be very useful
How does your ethnicity divide between parent 1+ 2
Are you half Scottish like me ? My late aunt was over 90percent Scottish
If I find a DNA match to her with less than 25percent Scottish I can see if I can identify any Scottish line on their tree via great grandparents + look into their shared matches
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Thanks all. 4 am here. Will try your suggestions tomorrow. Goodnight all.
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Stick to ‘4th cousins or closer’ and then shared matches. Try a chart as advised.
Sweet dreams :)
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Back again, we've been busy for a couple of days. Here's the big news: we found and got a copy of the official birth registration, and it pretty much confirms that we're on the right track. We have the definitive birth date of 2 Feb 1891 in (St) Pancras workhouse, and the new information of the mother, Louisa Harris, being "a domestic servant of 111 Kings Cross Rd, (St) Pancras." My grandfather name is given as "Thomas" with no father's name being present. I realise that the probability of an unmarried mother being a domestic servant is relatively high but I don't think it's a Type I error to see the listed occupation as evidence contributing to confirmation of the oral family history.
Unfortunately no D.O.B. given for Louisa Harris but we'll get there eventually, perhaps with the DNA help.
The birth date suggests a conception date late April/early May 1890.
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Re the St. Pancras workhouse birth
Louisa's approximate age - given as a year of birth - is in the creed register
There are a few other births in St. Pancras workhouse to a Louisa Harris or more than one Louisa Harris :-\ (Harris is a common name)
I think a problem might still be the February birth date
Could Thomas Graham have been in Scotland in the 1911 census? Possibly not so easy to work that out from the very limited info available in the only index (on SP)
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I've been trying to follow this thread....Has anyone found Louisa in the 1891 census?
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I've been trying to follow this thread....Has anyone found Louisa in the 1891 census?
I don’t think so. Nor has Thomas been found in 1901/1911.
There is no confirmation that Thomas, born in the workhouse, is the right one either.
I think this is right.
He gave his mother as Louisa Harris and his father as Thomas Graham on records.
With regard to the baptism and birth discussed here, I have looked again at his military record.
A Duplicate Record of Service for the army gives his age as 24 yrs 5 months and it is dated ‘I approve the acceptance of the above named man’ on 11.11.1916.
(I don’t know if the wording makes a difference as the above is written over ‘I approve the enrolment).
Another page says called up 7.11.1916 and a letter from Thomas Graham says he joined the army in 1915.
An award sheet (1921) gives year of birth as 1892.
A further sheet re identity shows 1893.
Place of birth shows London.
I just say this to try to get a birth year.
I just wish we could get more reliable information and find him. :)
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I've been trying to follow this thread....Has anyone found Louisa in the 1891 census?
We're currently looking at an Eliza Louisa Frisbee born in Australia (1860 or 1861), moved to England in her youth with her family (present in Eton in 1881 census), married Alfred Charles Harris, a carpenter, in St Pancras Chapel on 11 Oct 1883, moved back to Australia (Melbourne, Vic.) in 1914 and died there in 1919. There are enough coincidences for this to be plausible but one item arguing strongly against it - birth of a daughter in 1891, although that date is not yet confirmed. I don't have high confidence in this match but there's enough here to be worth checking deeper.
(I did find 3 people with a small (<1%) shared DNA link to me, in the same family whose common ancestors include a Frisbee but if that is the conection, the shared ancestor would have to be from the early 1700's, from before their earliest Frisbee ancestor emigrated to the USA.)
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Thanks for the update. :)
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Alfred and Eliza went to Australia soon after marrying. Children born in Victoria - John Charles (1884), Henry William (1887), Jessie (1891).
https://my.rio.bdm.vic.gov.au/
Debra :)
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Alfred and Eliza went to Australia soon after marrying. Children born in Victoria - John Charles (1884), Henry William (1887), Jessie (1891).
https://my.rio.bdm.vic.gov.au/
Debra :)
Thank you. That does look like a fairly definitive 'no'.
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(I did find 3 people with a small (<1%) shared DNA link to me, in the same family whose common ancestors include a Frisbee but if that is the conection, the shared ancestor would have to be from the early 1700's, from before their earliest Frisbee ancestor emigrated to the USA.)
Have you managed to get any further in identifying DNA matches on your mothers side that could be helpful?
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I can only find Pancras workhouse at 4 Kings Road, so could 111, Kings Cross Rd be her actual place of work ? Any census info ?
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QCJZ-Z6Z
Just a thought!
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I am not sure what you are looking for here. Do you think this is a different Louisa than the St Pancras one and therefore a different possibility for your Thomas?
Alfred and Louisa, with Mary and Charlotte are at 1901 743 /5 /1
They are also in 1911.
*you have answered this whilst I was writing my reply. :)
You mention a tree in your earlier post where there is a child added:
Charles Sydney Herbert Harris b 1889 Woolwich. His mothers name was Spiller which is where I got my information re Harris/Spiller.
added
Thanks Monica :)
Some time between when that was posted and now, this Louisa Mary Spiller turned up on Ancestry married to Alfred Harris from Woolwich.
https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/9405014/person/122304721326/facts - I believe the same one you were talking about here.
The Charles Sydney Herbert Harris you mentioned is https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/9405014/person/122312809788/facts
This record for Alfred Harris at https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/9405014/person/122124775984/facts may not be him (it looks like the poster merged two different Alfred Harrises, but did identify (in the comments) that one of them was from Woolwich.) If it was him, it would suggest he divorced Louisa and remarried, but I think the suggestion of it being two scrambled records is more likely.
Louisa Spiller's dates are mostly plausible except my Grandmother could not have met her as she died 20 years before my gran married Thomas Graham. However this Louisa Spiller doesn't appear to explain the large amount of Welsh ancestry on my mother's side which can only be from my grandfather, as the rest of the tree on that side is well filled out with Scots; *but* Luisa Spiller does appear to have traceable descendants which opens up the possibility of checking for a DNA link if I can find one who has taken a test. So although I don't think it is her, it's a testable hypothesis.
And of course everyone could have been totally misinformed about the possible father and it could have been some 100% Welsh stable boy :-) and it could have indeed been an adoptive mother who my grandmother met as you suggested.
G
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Anyway, as told to me, the illegitimate child was sent to an orphanage in London, and my mother said that the Graham surname came from the owner of the orphan's home, though I haven't been able to find a Graham orphanage in the UK at the turn of the century, never mind one in London.
Although I'm confident of having found his birth in London at the St Pancras poor house, and his army record at the age of 24, I've found nothing of his life in between and still consider the option of his having been raised in an orphanage as reported by my mother to be quite plausible. I had not found any orphanages run by anyone of the surname Graham, but on reading "Children's Homes: A History of Institutional Care for Britain's Young", in the chapter on Thomas Barnardo, I found:
'The opening of his Ever Open Door in Edinburgh was viewed with antipathy in Roman Catholic quarters of the city, and the London-based Catholic Herald published a story alleging cruelty and neglect by James and Janet Graham, the managers of the home. Although the Grahams successfully sued the paper’s publisher, Charles Diamond MP, Barnardo decided to withdraw from Edinburgh and the home was closed shortly afterwards.'