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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tickettyboo on Tuesday 30 May 23 13:44 BST (UK)
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Felix Hanlon died in Liverpool 28 May 1854, age 57. There is a burial entry for him at St Anthonys RC, Scotland Rd , Liverpool on 30 May 1854.
This burial entry had no 'abode' so to be sure I had the right man Mrs Belt n Braces here ordered the pdf of his death register entry which arrived today.
The death was registered on 22 Jul 1854, almost 2 months after he died. If it had been registered by the Coroner (who could have authorised the burial without registration) then it would make sense to me, but the death was registered by his widow.
No doubt there is a logical explanation that is one of the many things I don't yet know about, so if anyone can help to explain I'd appreciate it.
thanks
Boo
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Took that long to identify him???? Took that long to find her????
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Could she have not known about registering the death? Thought the burial register was all she needed?
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Disease of Liver Certified. Who certified the cause of death, was there a Post-mortem? Could there be a newspaper article?
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One of my ancestors death was registered by the coroner who conducted an inquest into my ancestor's death and then it was registered again five weeks later in a different town and county by one of the sons who alleged he was present at the death.
Both registrations contained errors, more so in the son's one.
The ancestor was buried before the coroner had registered the death. This was in 1863.
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Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate the input.
medpat,
7 Temple St was their address in 1851. The col regarding the informant does say she was present at the death so I can't think that it was a delay in identifying him.
Top of the hill,
This was her second marriage, though it was her brother who registered hubby 1's death I am sure she'd know of the requirement.
I always understood that unless a death had been registered the burial could not take place
(however, I do not know if that sort of ruling was in force in 1854) - unless there was to be an inquest and the Coroner gave permission for the body to be buried before the inquest was completed and in that case the Coroner would register the death.
Talacharn,
no idea about who certified the cause and I have failed to find anything in the old newspapers regarding this man.
artifis,
As I said, if the death had been registered by the Coroner then I could understand the reason for the delay. I can't find any other possible registration that could replicate the situation with your ancestor.
Thanks again to you all
Boo
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Hi Boo
Was Felix's death registered twice?
HANLIN, FELIX
Age at Death (in years): 57
GRO Reference: 1854 J Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 113
Hanlin also in the original GRO death index (attached)
Registered a second time to correct his surname?
There is a burial entry for him at St Anthonys RC, Scotland Rd , Liverpool on 30 May 1854.
This burial register for St. Anthony has him as Felix Hanlin.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6XT9-XFC
Rough book? May be Hanlon? :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-896L-R37W
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Hi jonw65
I think you may have cracked it. (and am smacking my head as I got so hung up about the Coroner and permission to bury prior to registration)
There IS a separate registration on the GRO index for Felix HanlIn in Q2 1854, age 57 so possible to be a re-registration.
will order this register entry anyway. I'm so nosey and need things to add up that its worth the £7 reduction in the daughters' inheritance - which they don't actually need as they do ok without it :-)
really, really appreciate the help. Will report back when I get the pdf.
Boo
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Gosh, sorry if I've caused you to part with another £7, Boo.
Yes, do please let us know how you get on with it.
Good luck.
Jon
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Gosh, sorry if I've caused you to part with another £7, Boo.
Yes, do please let us know how you get on with it.
Good luck.
Jon
Oh Jon
Rather than never knowing I'd happily spend another £7. I HATE it when things don't add up
and, hand in the air, if blame is going to be apportioned I will put it onto either Mary or the Registrar as I believe that if this pans out it 'should ', technically, have been an amendment to the original registration.
Will reserve judgement till the GRO provides the register entry for Felix HanlIn :-)
Boo
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This one #267 Joseph Henry Wetherall in Monaghan, Ireland caused me some confusion as says died Seventh (looks like Tenth) NOV 1930, registered 21 OCT 1930.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1930/04908/4331073.pdf
Headstone says died 5 Nov 1929 http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/monaghan/photos/tombstones/monaghan-donagh-st-salvators/target34.html
Irish Probate Calendar: Administration of the Estate...date of death: 06 Nov 1929; date of grant: 08 Jan 1930 and that seems the correct date as that matches two different newspaper announcements too (died 6th, newspaper 7th, buried 8th) https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl/0000038/19291107/001
Appears headstone was erected after last interment of daughter Annie Clow who emigrated to Canada 1926 but returned to visit several times and died 'whilst on vacation'. Can only assume her Canadian children provided the info but every date, apart from Annie's, is wrong by a few days & her sister Evelyns by 2 weeks (died 11 Jul according to newspaper of 12th Jul vs headstone 24 Jul 1937).
So Joseph was buried in the chuchyard without the death being registered, Administration was granted without a death cert and the registrar made a typo on the year when it was eventually registered just two weeks shy of a year later (or maybe error is just in the quarterly copy and was not picked up during QC copy check by Supt Registrar) yet death was similarly certified by a doctor. How that all happened I have no idea as though post-partition basically all the rules were the same as before and England (there is no entry 1929), would have thought a cert was required for Admin to be granted but perhaps the Affirmation & Oath sufficed. Thinking about it there weren't any in Admin / Probate packages I examined in PRONI last year for 1910, 1930's and 50's but was one in a 1983 Admin package I consulted several years back.
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My uncle committed suicide in November 1988 and his GRO death entry is under Jan 1989. I think the inquest delayed the registration of death but he was buried about a week after he died.
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By the 1874 Act Deaths could be registered up to a year afterwards https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/37-38/88/crossheading/registration-of-deaths/enacted
13 Requisition by registrar of information concerning death from qualified informant
"Where any death has from the default of the persons required to give information concerning it not been registered, the registrar may, at any time after the expiration of fourteen days and within twelve months from the day of such death or from the finding of the dead body elsewhere than in a house, by notice in writing, require any person required by this Act to give information concerning such death to attend personally at the registrar's office..."
15. After the expiration of twelve months next after any death, or after the finding of any dead body elsewhere than in a house, that death shall not be registered, except with the written authority of the Registrar General.
"The Births and Deaths Registration Act of 1874 tightened obvious loopholes. The doctor looking after someone during their last illness was required to certify the cause of death. All doubtful cases had to be referred to the coroner.
However, burial could still take place before a death certificate had been issued."
https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/transformingsociety/private-lives/death-dying/dying-and-death/registeringdeath/
Section 17 of 1874 Act: "The person who buries or performs any funeral or religious service for the burial of any dead body, as to which no order or certificate under this section is delivered to him, shall, within seven days after the burial, give notice thereof in writing to the registrar, and if he fail so to do shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding ten pounds.
Wording in the 1836 Act relating to burial was same as the 1874.
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My uncle committed suicide in November 1988 and his GRO death entry is under Jan 1989. I think the inquest delayed the registration of death but he was buried about a week after he died.
A death which goes to inquest is always registered, by the coroner, after the inquest is concluded so can now be months, or even years, after the event. The burial/cremation can go ahead as soon as the coroner allows.
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I had a mystery with a child of my 3* great grandparents - her burial was on 11 April 1841, aged 2 months and 11 days, but i couldn't find a death registration. They had previously lost another baby, registered on the same date as her death. There was an entry in the Jul-Sep quarter, right name and reg district, so in the end i ordered that certificate, and it was the right child, death not registered until 2 July 1841, by an uncle, said to have been present at the death. Cause given as pneumonia, not certified by a doctor.
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Thanks for all the further replies, just goes to show that though to each individual a puzzle like this is rare, collectively its quite common.
Jon_ni thanks especially for the detailed info from the 1836 and 1874 Acts, I'd been looking at those but posting this will help others in future.
Boo
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I now have the pdf for the death registration of Felix Hanlin - thanks to jonw65 who pointed out the GRO entry.
and it does seem to make sense in a way. The original had incorrect spelling for his surname and was registered the day after he died - by a John Hanlin/Hanlon who was possibly his brother.
Though there is no probate record its plausible that his widow had tried to claim maybe an insurance or something and officialdom didn't like the spelling variation so she went back to the Registrar. In theory he 'should' have altered the original and re-submitted it to the GRO. It does look like he started to (informant's name has been altered), then he seems to have given up and just made a new entry.
Thanks for the help, I really get hung up on discrepancies and its good to see the detail of what happened. Definitely the same man, so his death can now be recorded in my tree with explanatory notes and both register entries.
Boo