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Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: Rfarace on Monday 29 May 23 23:49 BST (UK)
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I have a 3GG, William Stevens, ironstone miner, that moved from Redruth, Cornwall to Scotland, moving about in the Ayrshire and Dunbartonshire area (Kilmarnock, New Kilpatrick, Dalry) before 1853 when he married.
1) Would a move from Cornwall to Scotland be considered an emigration, or simply a move?
2) Would most likely have traveled over land or by sea?
I’m basically wondering if there are any records of the move, and if I can determine when the move was made.
Thank you!
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Cornwall and Scotland are all in the same country ie the UK. So this was not a migration. Think of moving from one US state to another.
No migration records exist for a move within the UK.
Your ancestor probably moved by sea. There were frequent coastal journeys at that time up and down the UK and they were not expensive for passengers. Plymouth – Liverpool – Glasgow or Plymouth - Dublin – Glasgow are possible routes.The railway reached Redruth in 1852 but didn't run through to London or further afield till 1859, so that doesn’t appear to have been an option.
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Have you searched for him on the 1851 census?
Did he have children born in Scotland as you could narrow down when he moved North by those.
Good luck
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Associated link previously posted.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=873279.0
John
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When William died in Dalry (Ayr) in 1883 aged 48 his mmn given as Langdon.
John
added
William Stevens married Elizabeth Menzies/Mennies 1853 Kilmarnock.
Possible 1851 census ref 1915 11 15
If this is him in Redruth then any possible move between census date and marriage 4.7.1853
The death certificate of William Stevens in 1883 records his parents as George Stevens & Honor Langdon.
1841 census shows William aged 14 with parents George and Honor + siblings. William occ Mason
1851 *******
1861 census scotland aged 35
1871 census scotland aged 44
1881 census scotland aged 55
His death age should be around 57/58 not 48.
George Stevens and Honor Langdon marries 20.4.1814 Illogan, Cornwall
Any move to Scotland was then between 1841-1853
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John, can I presume you located the 1841 census and George/Honor marriage record on Ancestry? I have tried finding a way to search those records from home (I run up to our town library in order to use Ancestry), and thought I found some sources of Cornish data but I didn’t find those. I will head to the library to retrieve those records.
Also, I should have noticed the discrepancy in age given on William’s death record and that which simple math would have told me!
Re: Scotland and England being in the same country, I know some Scots that would skin me for saying that while singing “Flower of Scotland.” Scotland, England, and Wales are all separate countries comprising Great Britain, and together with Northern Ireland are the United Kingdom, which I’ve just learned is considered a “sovereign country,” and therefore there are countries within countries. Being separate but part of the whole UK, I had no idea whether there were emigration requirements or recording.
Thank you all!
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Cornish Births, Deaths, Marriages on line
https://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/
These are transcripts only. Vary search with Honour as well as Honor and Stephens as well as Stevens.
Good luck
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To give you an idea about the length of the journey.
Somewhere in my files, I have a 19th century advert by a sailing ship's owner. The journey from Aberdeen to London was six hours by sea. The North Sea down the east coast of the UK is quite a treacherous ocean.
From Glasgow through the Irish Sea down to Cornwall could probably take the same amount of time or a bit longer with a fair wind.
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For future reference, a little extra information regarding the UK. Prior to partition in 1921 the whole of Ireland was a part of the UK.
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Hanes, thank you for that link. A quick search brought up not only the marriage record, but also Honour’s baptism record from 1792. I will explore it further. Those being transcripts, I wonder if the images are available on Ancestry.
Rena, thank you for that information, the journey seems reasonable. I would imagine overland by horsecart would take longer.
Jebber, that’s something I’ve been pondering before I dig into another line of family that supposedly came to Scotland from County Down, which is now in Northern Ireland but of course they came before the division. That’s for another day, but I wonder if that complicates the search.
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To give you an idea about the length of the journey.
Somewhere in my files, I have a 19th century advert by a sailing ship's owner. The journey from Aberdeen to London was six hours by sea. The North Sea down the east coast of the UK is quite a treacherous ocean.
From Glasgow through the Irish Sea down to Cornwall could probably take the same amount of time or a bit longer with a fair wind.
Roughly 500 miles port to port? Average speed 80mph or 70 knots an hour?
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1841 census Ancestry have transcribed surname as Havens
Ref
Piece 143
Book 17
Folio 8
Page number 8
Household Members (Name) Age
George Havens 52
Honor Havens 48
Elonora Havens 25
Mary Havens 20
Elizabeth Havens 19
Ellen Havens 13
Lavinia Havens 9
John Havens 15
William Havens 14 occupation Mason
Erwin Havens 13
Vivian Havens 11
George Havens 7
John
added, Not sure if library editions of Anc* have access to public tree, but there is quite a comprehensive one on there that tallies when checking out.
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Jebber, that’s something I’ve been pondering before I dig into another line of family that supposedly came to Scotland from County Down, which is now in Northern Ireland but of course they came before the division. That’s for another day, but I wonder if that complicates the search.
Hundreds of thousands of people from Ireland went to Scotland for work during the 1800s and 1900s. Indeed they still do. It’s a short, cheap easy journey (11 miles across at the closest point) and many went from Co Down. Another domestic journey with no shipping records kept.
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Hanes, thank you for that link. A quick search brought up not only the marriage record, but also Honour’s baptism record from 1792. I will explore it further. Those being transcripts, I wonder if the images are available on Ancestry.
Rena, thank you for that information, the journey seems reasonable. I would imagine overland by horsecart would take longer.
Jebber, that’s something I’ve been pondering before I dig into another line of family that supposedly came to Scotland from County Down, which is now in Northern Ireland but of course they came before the division. That’s for another day, but I wonder if that complicates the search.
Transcripts are available at Familysearch, FindMyPast and the OPC site I referred you to - but not sight of the originals. As a betting man my money's on Ancestry delivering the same.
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Quote
As a betting man my money's on Ancestry delivering the same.
How much are you willing to bet,--A pint of "Felinfoel's Double Dragon"
John
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I ran up to the town library and checked Ancestry. They had the image for the census. For BMD records, though, just transcripts, and with less information than the other sources.
I can see why George Stevens was indexed as George Havens in the 1841 census. I never would have found that. Thank you for the help.
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As a betting man my money's on Ancestry delivering the same.
How much are you willing to bet,--A pint of "Felinfoel's Double Dragon"
John
John,
Oh dear, I was torn about introducing the betting angle and its not being there and, of course, it has come back with a vengeance to bite me on the backside. I suppose it's also a fair reflection of my gee gee betting.
As for "Feelin' Foul's** Double Dragon", sampled one or two yesterday. You'll be having a wee dram perhaps? Send me the bar bill.
** - doesn't reflect the quality of the brew, just our affectionate name for a much loved tipple.
regards
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So, I’m thinking that I should endeavor to dig deep and try harder to locate William in the 1851 census, most likely either in Cornwall or Scotland, to try to narrow down the window of his move. Complicated by spelling variations I’d never have considered. (Havens? How did you find that?)
That Double Dragon sounds yummy! (I looked it up.) I’ve not seen it here in the US, but I’ll keep my eyes open. I wonder how it compares to Belhaven Ale, which is on tap at my local Scottish pub. (Same pub which has, in less than a year, caused me to develop a taste for strongly peated Islay whisky. “Welcome to the dark side,” they said.)
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19 Mar 1844 Redruth – BURIAL
George Facey STEVENS age 54 (Parish Clerk)
Abode - Trevingey
1851 census
Honour Stephens is a widow living with her children, although William is not with her.
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Ooh, thank you so much for that, Neale! I was out running errands and it was nice to come home to find this.
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To give you an idea about the length of the journey.
Somewhere in my files, I have a 19th century advert by a sailing ship's owner. The journey from Aberdeen to London was six hours by sea. The North Sea down the east coast of the UK is quite a treacherous ocean.
From Glasgow through the Irish Sea down to Cornwall could probably take the same amount of time or a bit longer with a fair wind.
Roughly 500 miles port to port? Average speed 80mph or 70 knots an hour?
I wouldn't know about speed - I found this pertaining to a large sailing ship with about 12 sails.:
"..If you ask how many nautical miles can you sail in a day, you should know that on average, sailboats can sail up to 100NM (that is 115 miles or 185km) in one day when they run downwind..."
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So, I’m thinking that I should endeavor to dig deep and try harder to locate William in the 1851 census, most likely either in Cornwall or Scotland.
In the absence of seemingly any suitable William Stevens on 1851 census there are 3 possible record's on Findmypast re military service,for William Stevens/Stephens born c1826 in Cornwall I do not have subscription to check out details.
Caution, there is a tree on Anc* that has him in 1851 in London with occupation Tailor". This is NOT him. This man can be found in 1861 census as a Tailor and now married.
John
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The St Ives army record is a William Stevens (who was 42) in 1810.
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Davedrave, thanks for that, I have amended my last post as there are other Stevens/Stephens/Stevenson in Cornwall born around that time who could be our man .
John
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Long shot post, on FindMyPast.
William
Stevens
No. 1293
Private
32nd (The Cornwall) Regiment Of Foot
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To give you an idea about the length of the journey.
Somewhere in my files, I have a 19th century advert by a sailing ship's owner. The journey from Aberdeen to London was six hours by sea. The North Sea down the east coast of the UK is quite a treacherous ocean.
From Glasgow through the Irish Sea down to Cornwall could probably take the same amount of time or a bit longer with a fair wind.
Roughly 500 miles port to port? Average speed 80mph or 70 knots an hour?
I wouldn't know about speed - I found this pertaining to a large sailing ship with about 12 sails.:
"..If you ask how many nautical miles can you sail in a day, you should know that on average, sailboats can sail up to 100NM (that is 115 miles or 185km) in one day when they run downwind..."
1 knot = 1 nautical mile. The 19th century ship advert was claiming it would average 70 nautical miles per hour.
Tracking the passage of the steamship coaster City of London it took 3 days Aberdeen to London - year 1849.
Need to track a sailing ship .
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Thank you to everyone for the information that has been posted, it has let me find ancestors another generation or two back (including another Honour (which sounds odd to modern ears, but if we can have as names Faith and Hope, why not Charity and Honour?)), giving me some firm roots in Cornwall.
I will be heading back up the road to our town library in the next day or two to use their Ancestry subscription again. I’d like the 1851 census image for Honour mentioned above, and I’ll do some more spelunking trying to find William’s whereabouts in 1851. I had not previously considered military service.
I did stumble across one odd record on Ancestry yesterday: apparently Honour had a stay in a workhouse. I didn’t quite understand the reason, but it seemed like she was exhausted and didn’t have the resources to pay for lodging. I’m going to explore that a little further and see if there’s an entry for George as well, as I’d imagine they might have been traveling together.
Thanks again!
Edit: in case it’s of interest, the photo I’m using as my avatar is of my great-grandparents, George Stevens and Mary Fairlie, with their children George and Mary, my grandmother. This was taken in the US, and judging that my grandmother looks maybe three or four years old, probably from about 1914-15. George and Mary arrived as a newly married couple in January 1907.
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I did stumble across one odd record on Ancestry yesterday: apparently Honour had a stay in a workhouse. I didn’t quite understand the reason, but it seemed like she was exhausted and didn’t have the resources to pay for lodging. I’m going to explore that a little further and see if there’s an entry for George as well, as I’d imagine they might have been traveling together.
Sometimes people checked into the workhouse to take use of the hospital medical facilities there (which were free). They discharged themselves when they had recovered.
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Thank you to everyone for the information that has been posted, it has let me find ancestors another generation or two back (including another Honour (which sounds odd to modern ears, but if we can have as names Faith and Hope, why not Charity and Honour?)), giving me some firm roots in Cornwall.
While Honor/Honour is a rare forename in US, it's not particularly unusual in UK.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_(given_name)
Best example being actress Honor Blackman.
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Thank you to everyone for the information that has been posted, it has let me find ancestors another generation or two back (including another Honour (which sounds odd to modern ears, but if we can have as names Faith and Hope, why not Charity and Honour?)), giving me some firm roots in Cornwall.
While Honor/Honour is a rare forename in US, it's not particularly unusual in UK.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_(given_name)
Best example being actress Honor Blackman.
Thank you, I realized sometime after I posted that, as much as I try not to, I had expressed a rather US-centric statement. Apologies.
Perhaps interesting that in all my genealogical excavations, this is my first encounter with the name Honour, then finding two, and only in exploring a Cornish branch. Most of my maternal ancestors are found in Scotland, and it seems half of them are George or Mary. I wonder how much of that is due to Scottish naming conventions, and how much might possibly be being named after royals. (Or, starting as named after royals and being perpetuated by naming conventions.)
Re: US-centrisms, I’m finding it interesting how that is affected by my realizing that my family has more or less 120 years’ presence here, but hundreds of years of roots elsewhere. Genealogy is giving me more than the names of family.