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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Warwickshire => England => Warwickshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Ratty2 on Sunday 28 May 23 01:05 BST (UK)
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Two brothers: John and Joseph W, both tailors, father John Withars of Birmingham.
Looking for any more complete information of the following people, please. Did any of these children become tailors?
1. Joseph Withars, tailor, b1690 and Rachel Brown had six children: John (1717); Joseph (1718); Sylvia; Lydda (1721); Benjamin (1723); Elizabeth (1725).
2. John Withers, tailor b unknown and unknown spouse, had two children: Thomas (b1702) and Sarah (b unknown)
(The Benjamin b1723 became a butcher and had three wives with children, but I don’t need any more information about him.)
Source: Will of Joseph Withers, tailor 1761; Prob 11/870, National Archives.
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There are several Withers wills that can be viewed on FindMyPast. From a quick search, I found Joseph's (1718-1774) in which he mentions several relations, including his brother Benjamin and sister Lydia. He was a tailor. Also, Lydia herself had a will (she died a spinster) that mentions loads of cousins, so could prove very useful.
Queenie :)
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With many thanks
David
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Hello
Apprenticeships Birmingham
Benjamin Withers Master tailor took on Edward Dunn son of William of Stoney Lane in 1730 £3
John Withers Tailor took on Samuel Kimberley 1721 £4 and 1722 Humphrey Coley £4 and 1731 John Mills £2
Joseph took on George Hincley son of Edward of Stourbridge for £5 1718
Joseph Withers Will £20 1774 Granted to Benjamin Withers
Taylor Edgbastion St.Mentions his house is owned by Uncle Benjamin Withers taylor
Brother Benjamin butcher and his heirs and sister Lydia.Made 1761
That Will mentioned for Lydia 1785 £1000
Cousins Benjamin and Robert Withers £50 10 shillings
Cousin John Southwell £100
Cousins Samuel Withers and sister Elizabeth Fox £20 each
Cousins Guest Withers? and sisters Mary Smith and Bridget Carless £20 each
Mary Withers widow of my late uncle John £10 unless already dead and then to Uncle John's son Benjamin
Cousin Robert Withers junior and Lydia Withers £20
Cousin Mary Simcox widow £52 10 shillings and 5 guineas a year for ten years
Cousin Joan Hardwick of Willenhall £50 and if dead to her daughters
Cousins Isaac of Birmingham and his brother Richard Pedley of London £50 each
Cousin Elinor Taylor of Wednesbury F20
Friend Joseph Webster 10 guineas
Anne Pallet d of James a minor £20
Friends Hannah and Sarah Dutton 5 guineas
Cousins Benjamin Mansell and his wife Mary £100 each
Residue to the five daughter of Benjamin and Mary Mansell
Her houses in St Martins Lane etc and seat in Church also go to him.
Made 1784
Will of Mary Withers late wife of Benjamin Gentleman 1777
Charlotte Yenn daughter of niece Sarah wife of Richard poulterer gold ring and jewelry
silver tankards and tea spoons to husbands grandchildren Elizabeth Smith Guest Pitt Withers and Bridget Carless
Sarah Yenn gets more jewelry and her clothers
Benjamin Withers her husband 2 messuages in Moat Lane
Richard Yenn younger and Charlotte Yenn get 2 other houses
pew to Mary Johnson wife of William Johnson
Interest of £180 to husband and the sum to Sarah Yenns children William ,Ann ,Hannah and Sarah.
Elizabeth wife of William Ball yeoman of Worcester £5
£10 to Executors
Mentions Will of late husband William Hopkins
Made 1776
Sarah Withers 1730 wife of Benjamin Withers Taylor -mostly concerns an Indenture of Release she and Benjamin have signed with a Edward Wilkes yeoman ,John Thompson baker and John Yaranten tanner .
I don't really get.
They married 1725 and she was a Miss Wilkes.
Ciderdrinker
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Wow
That is so very helpful.
I'm a bit over worked at the moment so will digest it during the week.
But many thanks, that is so very helpful.
David
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Many thanks, Queen of the West and Ciderdrinker for your help.
I’ve checked out Lydia’s 1785 will and found she had quite a list of cousins:
Robert Withers and brother Benjamin; John Southwell, Samuel Withers and his sister Elizabeth Fox; Guest Withers and his sisters Mary Wilkes, Bridget Carlefs(?). She also listed Mary Withers widow of her late uncle John Withers and his son Benjamin Withers. There was also Robert Withers jnr, Mary Simcox a widow, Joan Hardwick of Willenhall, Staffs, the brothers Isaac Pedley of Brm with Richard Pedley of London, then Eleanor Taylor of Wednesbury, Staffs.
Her friends included Joseph Webster, Ann Pallit the daughter of James Pallit of Brm; then Sarah and Hannah Dutton of West Brom.
I was interested to see she left her house (and her church pew) in St Martins Lane (currently occupied by James Pallit) to her Executor Benjamin Mansell(?). This house features in a descendant’s will, Samuel Withers whose tailoring empire included both Edgbaston street and St Martins Lane, plus another in Worcester St and what became the family home on Smallbrook St. Also fascinating to see that the Bishop of the Diocese was at that time a Smallbroke whose name may be linked to the street.
I didn’t add up her monetary bequests, but it was certainly extensive; she was a rich woman.
I think these were siblings: Benjamin the master tailor, the eldest, then his brothers John and Joseph also tailors, plus Lydia. Perhaps Lydia ran the business looking after the finances. It was a family business.
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Checking out John Withers.
I see on FindMyPast that there is an Index for him
Withers John; 1681; Lichfield Consistory Court Wills, 1650-1700, Solihull, Warwickshire, England.
Can't find the original document on FindMyPast, nor at National Archives. They refer to the local County council, but still no sign of the original.
Could you please point me in the right direction?
Or at least let me know who he left his estate to?
Thanks
David
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Hello
Yes as bit of a cock up here.
The Council website has him as John Withyes
Withyes
Forename(s):
John
Gender:
Male
Place of Residence:
Solihull
County:
Warwickshire
Occupation / Status:
cordwainer
Type of Document Recorded
Will:
No
Letter of Administation:
Yes
Inventory of Goods:
Yes
Additional Information
Repository:
Staffordshire Record Office
Date Recorded:
6 May 1681
In some cases only the month/year or just year is available.
Court:
Lichfield Consistory Court
Reference:
B/C/11
It is just an Inventory and Admin not a Will
His widow Joanna Withers gets the estate. £39 15' 8d
The original on FindMyPast is indexed as
Johanna Wilkes 1681 Solihull 1681 Staffordshire, Dioceses Of Lichfield And Coventry Wills And Probate 1521-1860
Really not a great transcription/index
Hope you can find it from there
Ciderdrinker
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Thanks ciderdrinker, as you say, not much to go on.
But thanks for checking
David
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In his 1730 Will, Joseph makes bequests to his wife Rachel, and to his children: Joseph, Benjamin, and his daughter.
I thought his daughter's name was Sylvia, but now I wonder if she is Lydia. Have a misread the handwriting where the S could be a very loopy L?
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I have John Withars married to Elizabeth Lambert in 1635.
If this is correct (and I have doubts) then they had three children:
Joseph tailor (baptised 1718), Benjamin (did he become the master tailor?) and Lydia (1721-c1785)
But then Joseph the tailor's Will dated 1730 (1690-1761).
Any clues please?
Cheers
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Hello
I'm getting a bit confused here.
We know Joseph who married Rachel Brown in 1715 was born 1690 son of John.
John who married Elizabeth Lambert in 1635 would be far too early to be parents of Joseph and even older if they had Joseph 1718,Benjamin and Lydia 1721.
So forget them for now.
I can't see a Will for Joseph in 1730.Where did you find it? I'm assuming you mean the PCC Will 1761.
So we have Joseph and Rachel born c 1690 tailor
His brother John (Joseph's Will 1761)
And brothers Thomas bapt 17.6.1695 Birmingham St Martin son of John (perhaps mentioned in Joseph's Will 1761 ,perhaps that Thomas was brother John's son.It doesn't say).
Benjamin the Master Tailor who married Sarah Wilkes 20.2.1725 (uncle in Joseph Withers Will 1774 and his children are mentioned as cousins in Lydia's)
Sister Sarah who married Mathias Soutrhwell 14.1.1719 (not John's daughter but sister)Buried 31.7.1763 Children Elizabeth 1720 ,Sarah 1723,JOHN 1726 (Lydia's Will) ,James 1732 and Sarah 1735.
I'm guessing John is the eldest.
And also in the parish
Joseph born c 1656 daughter Elizabeth 30.7.1681
Thomas and Elizabeth Flavel born c 1677 married Deritend 31.1.1702 children 1702-1720
William born c 1689 with a daughter Elizabeth 1714
John Senior born c 1690 having children 1715-1730 .
That covers all the couples having children in Birmingham at St Martins 1680-1730
I think you are right with Joseph born 1690 son of John.
It would make sense that John was born c 1660 and his baptism might be missing because of the Protectorship.
And I think you are on the right track with John Wythers Admin 1681 and his with Joanna of Solihull.
Ciderdrinker
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Hi Cidardrinker,
Thank you for all that detecting.
Re “Joseph born 1690 son of John”
I found Joseph Withers, 1730 Will at Ancestry: Wills and Probate; 1521-1860, Diocese of Birmingham and Coventry and Lichfield, Staffordshire, Warwickshire England, (Ancestry). The Will was Probated 31 October 1761.
I found another John baptized 31 March 1592, from Aston (FamilySearch); and a marriage of John Withers to Elizabeth Lambert for 25 April 1685. (England Marriages 1538-1973; 25 April 1685, Parish Marriages Mancetter Warwickshire (FindMyPast). A bit too early for this man's marriage marriage, I think.
Thanks for clarifying Benjamin. “Benjamin the Master Tailor who married Sarah Wilkes 20.2.1725 (uncle in Joseph Withers’ Will 1774 and his children are mentioned as cousins in Lydia's)”
I couldn’t figure out his generation.
By my reckoning Benjamin married three times: 1, to Mary Weston in 1733 (with 7 children, including 4 attempts to keep a surviving child named Benjamin), 2, to Elizabeth Guest (with 3 children), to Sarah Wilkes (with 6 children).
However, I found him also in the Jurors’ List 1774 as a butcher.
I also found Robert Withers who traded as a “taylor”(two references in Lydia’s Will) at No.52 Edgbaston St during the 1770s. At this time, following the same trade, were Joseph Withers at No.7 St. Martin's Lane and Samuel Withers at No.26 Worcester Street.
The three tailor shops expanded into four under Samuel 26 Worcester street when he added Smallbrook St to his empire. His grandson, Edwin Withers, converted it into a tobacco business.
All good
David
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Good Morning
There are two Benjamin Withers -
One the son of Joseph and Rachel Withers born 1723 who becomes a butcher .He marries Elizabeth Guest in 1747 at Curdworth.They have 3 children.She dies 13.10.1761 .He is the juroror in 1774.
His uncle Benjamin the Master tailor is born in the 1690's and is brother of Joseph Withers who married Rachel Brown. He married Sarah Wilkes in 1725.She is buried 19.9.1730 .He then goes on to remarry after Sarah's death Mary Weston in 1733.He is described as a widower and she is a spinster of 22.It is by licence and his bondsman is his brother in law Mathias Southwell rindle? cutter. She dies 30 Sep 1756 .He remarries again 22.4.1772 as a taylor widower to Mary Hopkins widow.
There are 2 deaths for a Benjamin Withers 31.1.1780 and 13.1.1784 at St Phillips they are uncle and nephew but not definite info on which is which.
I would guess Robert the Taylor was bapt 30.9.1746 son of Robert and the grandson of John taylor brother of Joseph who married Rachel Brown .
Does that clear things up?
Ciderdrinker
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Thanks very much.
Yes I believe that clears it up. I was getting confused.
It sounds like you have access to St Martin's register, is that so? As I'm writing a family history the references would be helpful.
Cheers
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Hello
Yes my local Library has Ancestry and st Martins Birmingham is on there.
Ciderdrinker
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Take a drink, ciderdrinker, with my thanks
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ok, well !!
My confusion deepens.
I now have an unknown Withars/Withers born pre 1690 whose Admin I have yet to check out ("John Wythers Admin 1681")
This guy appears to have had 2 children: John and Sarah. Of John: I estimate his birth c 1660, master tailor 1774. No wife.
Of his children I have John, Joseph, Benjamin, Rachel all born c 1690 and Thomas b1685.
Following your research I now add Lyddia bc1705 and Sarah , no birth date).
So far so good?
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Good Morning
Ok so the top line /furthest back we have is -John Withers born c 1660 ,possible wife Sarah buried 7.4.1714 St Martins
There children are John who marries a Mary ,Benjamin the taylor who marries Sarah Wilkes in 1725 , Sarah who marries Mathias Southall in 1719 ,Joseph born 1690 who marries Rachel and Thomas born 1695.
Rachel is the daughter in law ,not the daughter and Lydia is the granddaughter.
There may be a connection with the Admin for John Withers in 1681 but it can't be the eldest John born 1660 because his last child was born 1695.It may be his father.
That's the best I can do.
Ciderdrinker
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Just been going back over my notes and checking against yours:
Benjamin Withers b1713 son of Joseph Withars, a butcher, married Sarah Wilks 1725 and then Elizabeth Guest 1747 followed by 3 children: Joseph (b c1728) Mary (b1753) and John (b1764).
I also have a Benjamin Withers born 1723 in Birmingham, parents Joseph Withars and Rachel Brown, married Sarah Wilks 1725 (no children), Mary Weston 1733 (four children) and Mary Hopkins 1772. There are two children John Withers born Dec 1772 and Richard born May 1774, but both of them have Sarah as their mother, not Mary.
Can't find much info of Mary Hopkins, and no children from Sarah Wilks with Benjamin.
grimace
David
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Hello
Let's start with the Benjamin Withers son of Joseph and Rachel nee Green.He's born 1723 so he's not the Benjamin who marries Sarah Wilks in 1725.
I can't find a definite marriage or a burial for him .He was a butcher ,and he was still alive when his brother Joseph made his will in 1761.It looks like he was dead before his sister Lydia made her Will 8.5.1784 ,but there are two possible burials.
Benjamin withers 31.1.1780 and 13.10.1784 . One is this Benjamin ,the butcher ,the other is his uncle Benjamin the taylor.
So the older Benjamin Withers born c 1680's s of John and possibly Sarah Withers (wife buried 7.4.1714) The brother of John ,Sarah later Southall ,Joseph born 1790 and Thomas born 1795.
Took on apprentice Edward Dunn 1730 ,Master taylor
He married 1) Sarah Wilks 1725.She died 19.9.1730. (I'm guessing Edward Wilks is her brother)
Children-William 2.2.1727 (who married 18.8.1750 Mary Pitt at Edgbaston )
Elizabeth 8.5.1730 m 12.7.1752 at Coughton John Fox.
2) 13.5.1733 St Martins Mary Weston age 22 spinster of St Phillips by licence. Bapt
29.8.1711 St Martins d of Edward Weston.
Children Rachel 12.8.1735
Samuel 13.10.1738 -19.2.1820 Edgbaston m 2.12.1761 Mary Pitt age 22 years St Martins
Benjamin 20.1.1740-27.1.1740
John 29.12.1742-10.7.1745
Benjamin 14.11.1746-21.12.1749
3) Married 21.9.1747 Elizabeth Guest bapt 29.6.1725 d of Abraham Guest buried 13.10.1761
Mary 2.7.1753-1.10.1753
Joseph 13.3.1758-13.11.1759
4) 22.4.1772 Mary Hopkins widow of William Hopkins She died died 6 .12.1776 of Aston.
Info not sure which Ben.
17.5. 1767 Benjamin Withers of Birmingham admitted to Bedlam asylum
1774 Poll book Ben Withers and Samuel Withers of Birmingham entitled to vote.
Does that help?
Ciderdrinker
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Thanks, I think I'm getting there:
You say: "So the older Benjamin Withers born c 1680's s of John and possibly Sarah Withers (wife buried 7.4.1714) [Is also] The brother of John, Sarah (b c1695; later marry Southall, Joseph born 1790 and Thomas born 1795" I have Sarah b1695 at Northfield; and I have John born c1690 master tailor.
Joseph born 1790 and Thomas born 1795 seems a bit late; perhaps a typo? Should they be 1675 and 1690?
Re Mary Pitt.
"William 2.2.1727 (who married 18.8.1750 Mary Pitt at Edgbaston )" and you also found "Samuel 13.10.1738 -19.2.1820 Edgbaston m 2.12.1761 Mary Pitt age 22 years St Martins". I guess that would have been okay because I later found Edward Weston Withers b1762 married Elizabeth Dean in 1801; Elizabeth then married her brother-in-law William (b1767 a butcher) in 1824.
Just to reiterate:
There were three brothers John (who married Sarah, and died 1714) and Benjamin a master tailor bc1680 and Joseph (b c1690) and their sister Sarah who married Southall.
It was John and Sarah whose children incl: Benjamin b1723 a butcher and died c1780.
Benjamin born c1680 the master tailor had 4 marriages:- Sarah Wilks in1725, Mary Weston in 1733, Eliz Guest in 1747 and Mary Hopkins in 1772.
Is that okay
David
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Hi David
Yes the siblings Benjamin born c 1680 master tailor, John b c1695 ,Sarah and Joseph should be 1690 and Thomas should be 1695.
So 4 brothers and a sister Sarah
The master butcher Benjamin Withers 1723-1780 is the son of Joseph and Rachel Withers nee Green.
So a generation later .
Hope that helps
Ciderdrinker
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Yes, that's fine.
Too many Benjamins should have been rationed!
David