RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: rachtravem on Wednesday 10 May 23 07:49 BST (UK)
-
BACKGROUND
My mother's father was Charles Alfred Frederick Brams, who married the pregnant Evelyn Derrick.
In 2001 my family in England told me that CAF then found Evelyn was pregnant to another man...so he "sent her back to live with her father".......which I have verified in Census records...and they were never divorced......and CAF then set up with Alice (Steel/Steele?) ......who then became pregnant.....and gave birth to my mother Doris .
CAF/Alice were never married so CAF/Alice used his marriage cert to Evelyn, as Alice' entry to the UK hospital (scam 1) to avoid the unmarried mother birth stigma on Doris' birth cert....which should have been birth mother Alice..but shows parents CAF and Evelyn (scam2) My mother never had a birth cert so she never knew about Evelyn as her official "mother".
CAF (and wife and baby) then came to Australia in 1924 on the ship BORDA, using his military passport which named Evelyn as his wife.....when the person with him was actually Alice!!!(scam 3).
Alice was known as Alice Brams in WA (scam 4) and at the Woorooloo Sanitorium (scam 5) where she died, and is buried (scam 6).
There is also the possibility that Evelyn was actually pregnant to him, but he deserted Evelyn after the marriage in favour of Alice....and that the family made up the "other man "story to make CAF to appear less at fault.
If the family story about Evelyn/Alice story is true, then it appears I am related to Alice......but I cannot find a single data item about her because I cant verify if she was really named Steel/Steele.
-
Can you tell us when and where Charles Brams was born please? You say you have census records but give no indication as to years or where Charles was living.
-
If Alice travelled as Evelyn May in 1924 she was aged 25. At death she was 37, so Alice has a dob between 1896-1899.
Brams Alice F 37 UNKNOWN UNKNOWN Wooroloo 1934 Northam 4900094 1934
Brams Charles Alfred Frederick M 40 Charles BRAMS UNKNOWN Pemberton 1935 Blackwood 500005 193
John
-
Girl Guide, Sorry. Record details
Name Charles Brams
Age in 1911 15
Estimated Birth Year 1896
Relation to Head Son
Gender Male
Civil parish St Pancras
County/Island London
Country England
Street Address 9 Seaton Street, St Pancras
Registration District Number 9
Sub-registration district West St Pancras
ED, institution, or vessel 04
Piece 655
Household members
Name Age
Charles Brams 36
Elizabeth Brams 33
Charles Brams 15
David Brams 6
Doris Brams 4
Violet Brams 3
-
Another child "seemingly" born to Charles & Evelyn.
Births Dec 1919
Brams Harold Derrick Holborn 1B 1230a Died 1983
With his grandparents in 1921 census.
John
-
Interesting, I can't find a birth record for Charles in either 1893 or 1896. I did wonder if he had lied about his age when joining the army. He was stated to be 18 years exactly and attested on 21 September 1911. Surname mangled on birth records or not registered?
I cannot find any Charles on the passenger list so either badly transcribed or missed off.
-
I think I've found Charles in the 1921 census name down as Bramo. Living with his uncle and aunt William and Mary Bennett in Islington plus others.
Charles is married but no wife with him. Corporal (out of work), age 26 yrs 9 mths.
-
Fremantle, Western Australia, Passenger Lists, 1897-1963
View imageView record
Record details
Name Chas Alf Fred Brams
Gender Male
Birth Date 1895
Departure Place London, United Kingdom
Arrival Date 4 May 1924
Arrival Place Fremantle, Western Australia, Australia
Age on Arrival 29
Vessel Borda
-
Charles Alfred Frederick Brams(Brains?) born 19th Sept 1895. Baptised 13.10.1895, father Charles occ painter & Emily Elizabeth. Abode 37 Storey Street, Islington.
John
-
Charles Alfred Frederick BRAMS baptised 13 Oct 1895 in Islington
Father Charles and mother Emily Elizabeth
His birth is registered under the surname BLISS in 1895 Islington
His father was an habitual criminal and used a long list of aliases – including BLISS.
Added - Actually his mother also served time in prison, and had a long list of aliases.
-
Thanks for the travel record. Don't know why he doesn't appear on the Find My Past passenger list.
Someone seems to have transcribed his surname as Brains to his marriage to Evelyn in 1919. Page number given as 876 but on Charles' record on free bmd it is 676. However on checking the GRO page it is 876 for Charles.
-
Re Neale's find:-
Birth Record from GRO
BLISS, CHARLES ALFRED BRAMS NORRIS
GRO Reference: 1895 D Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 274
No Frederick but Brams instead.
Added: As I suspected no marriage of a Bliss to a Norris. Wonder if dad lived with various women but never married them?
-
..... Wonder if dad lived with various women but never married them?
He was constantly in and out of prison - I wonder that some of his "children" may not be biologically his.
-
Sounds like he was a raffish bounder hopping from woman to woman. One wonders what his birth surname was. I haven't done any looking to find out.
-
Welsh Newspapers -
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3473596/3473599/55/brams
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3747065/3747071/131/brams
Impressive prison "CV" spotted by Neale.
-
Welsh newspapers
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3485760/3485763/87/brams
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3473731/3473734/32/brams
-
I think his birth surname was Bliss.
BLISS, CHARLES JOHN TURNER
GRO Reference: 1875 J Quarter in OF CARDIFF Volume 11A Page 271
If I have the right couple, this appears to be their marriage record:-
Marriages Dec 1871
Bliss Jesse Clifton 6a 264
Turner Catherine Clifton 6a 264
In 1881 the family are in Cardiff and still there in 1891.
-
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3473721/3473724/61/brams
The Cardiff court reports refer to Charles as "cripple" and he appeals to the court "to have pity on a poor cripple". Genuine or acon?
-
Probably a con. Stood in such a way to make it look as if he was a cripple. Checking the census record to see if any mention of that would sort that out.
I've just had a quick look at a couple of the census records. Nothing to indicate any kind of infirmity and in any case he wouldn't have got into the army if he had been a cripple.
-
No - genuine!!
Description from 1 of the criminal registers
"sc(ar) crown of head; face pock-pitted; lost r(ight) foot below ankle and l(eft) leg amputated below knee; wears an artificial leg on r(ight)"
Born London 1875, height 5' 9", hair dk bn, eyes bn, occpn tailor
-
Births Sep 1911
BRAMS Elizabeth mmn Bliss Pancras 1b 47
Births Sep 1912
BRAMS Gerald C mmn Bliss Islington 1b 460
1934 electoral reg at 287 Crickelwood Lane
Elizabeth Brams
Doris Brams
Elizabeth Brams jnr
1938 at same address
Gerald Brams
Elizabeth Brams
Doris Brams
Possible marriage of Violet Brams (taken from 1911 census)
Marriages Sep 1928
Brams Violet Packham Hendon 3a 975
Packham Walter H Brams Hendon 3a 975
1939 Violet Packham with dob 23.10.1907
****************
Doris Brams possible marriage
Marriages Sep 1938
Brams Doris Montague Hendon 3a 2128
Montague Albert H Brams Hendon 3a 2128
1939 Doris Montague dob 8.8.1906 at 287 Cricklewood Lane,
Also at the same address is Elizabeth Brams dob 19.2.1877--a widow
John
-
What about Alice ;D
John
-
What about Alice ;D
John
John - couldn't resist but you need to ask Roy Chubby Brown
regards
hanes
-
Hanes - Just rechecked the transcript of his recruitment record. It does mention scars+ but no more than that.
Eye colour is given as grey, hair is black, height is near enough the same 5ft 8.25 inc. and occupation is stated as Wardrobe dealer which I suppose could be another way of saying tailor.
How could he have got into the army with part of his leg missing??? even though he was using a false leg.
What was the date of the criminal record that you looked at?
-
Oldbaileyonline has a report of a trial from 3 March 1908 involving Charles Brams (age 32) and Henrietta Bliss (age 54). Henrietta Bliss is mentioned as being the mother in law of Charles Brams. Charles' brother in law, Thomas Bliss, is also mentioned.
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=t19080303-48
johnhood - yes we have drifted away from Alice haven't we ;D
hanes teulu - ;D ;D ;D
-
Alice's death index (Western Australia) has YoD 1934, Pemberton, age 37, mother/father unknown.
What's the source of "Steel/Steele" in the opening post?
Charles died 1936 (30 Dec?), Pemberton, age 40, father Charles, mother n/k.
From a newspaper report he was buried 1 Jan 1936, having died in a swimming pool accident, leaving a 13 year old daughter.
-
You have all clarified so much, but am really wanting to find Alice???
-
What is the source of the name "Steele/Steele"?
FindMyPast doesn't cover Western Australia passenger lists. What's the source of the 1924 voyage. Does it show an occupation for Alice/Evelyn.
Note - spotted earlier post re. source. But what of Alice?
-
Just closing up a loose end.
Elizabeth is with her daughter Violet Packham until 1963 at 287, Cricklewood Lane. By 1964 Violet is just with her husband David J, still at that address. Probable death of Elizabeth
Deaths Mar 1963
BRAMS ELIZABEL H E 85 HAMPSTEAD 5C 1251
John
-
I think you could make the assumption that Alice was living in London in the 1921 census.
If Rach can tell us what occupation was given for Alice/Evelyn on the passenger list, assuming there is one, then that could be helpful when finding a likely Alice in the 1921.
Otherwise it could be a slog of finding likely Alice's and making a note of them.
Added: All potential Alice's could then be followed up to see if one disappears after 1924. Any who marry are unlikely to be her. Depends on how much you wish to find her.
-
I think you could make the assumption that Alice was living in London in the 1921 census.
If Rach can tell us what occupation was given for Alice/Evelyn on the passenger list, assuming there is one, then that could be helpful when finding a likely Alice in the 1921.
Otherwise it could be a slog of finding likely Alice's and making a note of them.
Exactly my thinking.
Details of Charles' 1924 passage already posted - but nowt about those accompanying him.
-
Charles with Evelyn and Doris travelin 1924. Also a David Brams who is probably his brother from 1911 census.
The OP did state in opening post that Alice probably travelled as alias Evelyn.
-
David Brams
Marriage
Brams David Gerard M Ware Elizabeth Frances Delcy F Pemberton 1932 Blackwood 500018 1932
Death
Brams David Gerrard M 70 Charles BRAMS Elizabeth BLISS Mosman Park 1975 Perth 102022 1975
John
-
BLISS, EMILY ELIZABETH mmn NORRIS
GRO Reference: 1879 M Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 400
Think we are all now awaiting re the Steel/Steele/Steed connection reply.
John
-
Popped out to renew lib books and remembered Ancestry available. Therefore, able to check voyage details and. as snippet shows, Alice (Alias Evelyn) recorded as housewife.
David is his brother - mentioned in newspaper reports re. Charles' death.
-
I think you could make the assumption that Alice was living in London in the 1921 census.
Who is the Alice Brams, born 1897, London, in the 1921 free index?
Or is it some kind of transcription error (perfectly possible)
Head is Janet Gooch, 58, born Norwood, Surrey
So the address is 281 Camden Road, Islington
From free searching Alice comes up as servant (relationship) and also as married?
There are only seven Brams in the free index, obviously not including Charles Bramo, nor other Brams that we know about! Charles also in Islington (Girl Guide, Reply #6)
I would think some of those seven Brams might well be mistranscriptions, just seems odd there is an Alice of the right sort of age? :-\
-
That's a good find Jon. :D Suitable sort of age. I'll have a look and see if I can find anything likely as a birth record.
Added: Rather a long list of just Alice born in London. None of them have the Steel/Steele/Steed name.
-
Okay I've looked for births in the MQ 1897 as according to my maths that is when Alice would have been born. Age given as 24 years and four months in the 1921 census.
No births with the name of Steed.
These two for Steele:-
Births Mar 1897
Steele Alice Annie V Middlesbro' 9d 628
Steele Alice May Birmingham 6d 26
Unless Alice gave an incorrect birthplace, which was London, not the above two.
For Steel:-
Births Mar 1897
Steel Alice Elham 2a 1042
Elham is Kent, so in theory not the above either.
-
For Steel:-
Births Mar 1897
Steel Alice Elham 2a 1042
Elham is Kent, so in theory not the above either.
No, not this one.
In 1911 this Alice Steel (age 14) is living with her mother in Folkestone, working as apprentice dressmaker.
ALice married Frank CLAYSON in 1922 Elham. She appears on the 1939 Reg with her husband and mother, in Folkestone.
-
Who is the Alice Brams, born 1897, London, in the 1921 free index?
Head is Janet Gooch, 58, born Norwood, Surrey
So the address is 281 Camden Road, Islington
From free searching Alice comes up as servant (relationship) and also as married?
Hopefully someone with access to the 1921 census can find her full details.
Given that Doris’ birth was registered in Holborn, Alice in Camden Rd Islington is in the right vicinity.
I would be interested to see the birth cert. for the address, etc.
Birth registration:
BRAMS, DORIS VIOLET Mother: DERRICK
GRO Reference: 1922 J Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 1040
-
Who is the Alice Brams, born 1897, London, in the 1921 free index?
Head is Janet Gooch, 58, born Norwood, Surrey
So the address is 281 Camden Road, Islington
From free searching Alice comes up as servant (relationship) and also as married?
Hopefully someone with access to the 1921 census can find her full details.
Given that Doris’ birth was registered in Holborn, Alice in Camden Rd Islington is in the right vicinity.
I would be interested to see the birth cert. for the address, etc.
Birth registration:
BRAMS, DORIS VIOLET Mother: DERRICK
GRO Reference: 1922 J Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 1040
1921
Alice Brams, domestic servant, 24 yrs & 4 mths, married, born London, England
Employed by Mrs Gooch
-
Have just been told full name if Alice. Alice Myrtle Steel
-
1922 electoral roll
Charles Brams, and Elizabeth Brams are living at
287 Cricklewood Lane, Hendon, Barnet.
(That could be the parents of CAF Brams. It seems to have been the family home for at least 5 years)
-
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3473721/3473724/61/brams
The Cardiff court reports refer to Charles as "cripple" and he appeals to the court "to have pity on a poor cripple". Genuine or acon?
It would seem that Charles A F Brams Senior was the "cripple" not junior. it was Charles jr who's parents were thiefs.
-
Correct - as stated in reply #9.
-
Well I'm not coming up with any birth for an Alice Myrtle Steel but I did find this in connection with Ronald Thompson who married Doris Brams.
Marriage and Family Married (1) 24 April 1943, St John’s Church, Fremantle (Church of England) to Doris Violet Brams, daughter of Charles Alfred Frederick Brams and Alice Myrtle Steel
Children: one son and one daughter
Widowed 27 March 1986
Apparently Ronald was an MP in Western Australia.
-
Yes, Girl Guide.
Ron was Minister for Police
This is my FIL's father. it is Doris' mother that (FIL mother's mother, Alice M Steel) that we are trying to find heritage for.
-
I've tried all sorts of things but not coming up with anything for an Alice Myrtle Steel born 1897 or thereabouts.
I cannot find any record of birth for her at all, no baptism, no likely census record but sometimes second names are not included.
It's as though she doesn't exist! Certainly not in any records.
-
I would be interested to see the birth cert. for the address, etc.
Birth registration:
BRAMS, DORIS VIOLET Mother: DERRICK
GRO Reference: 1922 J Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 1040
Yes, have you got this certificate?
If so, can you give us all the information on it.
-
will find out but believe not
-
ok, Apparently, due to "unmarried mother status", birth cert has Evelyn Derrick as Doris' mother, when it was actually Alice
-
As jonw65 has asked is there an address on birth cert.
John
-
Recap for Alice Myrtle Steel
Apparently, Alice met Charles A F Brams after he came back from the War in 1920/21. He was still married to Eveyln Derrick and never divorced her. Alice gave birth to a daughter, Doris Violet, under the name of Eveyln. They came to Aust, with Alice travelling as Eveyln. Either Doris' Marriage Cirt or Alices death Cert states Alices' name as Alice Myrtle Steel
-
She is just plain Alice on the electoral registers though (and her death registration). But her husband didn't use his full names. From the newspapers, he seems to have been known as Harry Brams in Australia.
Another child "seemingly" born to Charles & Evelyn.
Births Dec 1919
Brams Harold Derrick Holborn 1B 1230a Died 1983
With his grandparents in 1921 census.
Yes, with the Derricks.
There might be something odd about that birth reg :-\
I cannot get it up on the new GRO index at all.
If you look at the original image, it has been added by hand at the foot of the page. Like some similar examples I have checked out, does this extra "a" entry suggest it is connected to one of the five registrations on the relevant page number?
In Dec 1919 Holborn (1b) page 1230 the only likely one is
Bennett, Harold
mother Bennett
Which comes up on the new index as
BENNETT, HAROLD
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1919 D Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 1230 Occasional Copy: A
-
Do you think this might be Harold's death?
Deaths 4th Qrt 1983
HAROLD DOUGLAS BRAMS
Birth date 11 NOV 1919
SUTTON
Vol 15/ pg 465
Best way (dream ticket ::)) would be a DNA comparison with descendants of Harold and Doris to confirm different mothers (Evelyn and Alice).
Monica
-
Possible marriage for Harold:
Marriages 1st Qrt 1941
Harold D Brams and Muriel Dunkley
Surrey S E
Vol 2a/ pg 1559
At least 3 children showing for them, born in the 1940-50s.
Monica
-
Girl Guide posted at #6
“ I think I've found Charles in the 1921 census name down as Bramo. Living with his uncle and aunt William and Mary Bennett in Islington plus others.
Charles is married but no wife with him. Corporal (out of work), age 26 yrs 9 mths.”
I wonder if that has any bearing on She is just plain Alice on the electoral registers though (and her death registration). But her husband didn't use his full names. From the newspapers, he seems to have been known as Harry Brams in Australia.
Another child "seemingly" born to Charles & Evelyn.
Births Dec 1919
Brams Harold Derrick Holborn 1B 1230a Died 1983
With his grandparents in 1921 census.
Yes, with the Derricks.
There might be something odd about that birth reg :-\
I cannot get it up on the new GRO index at all.
If you look at the original image, it has been added by hand at the foot of the page. Like some similar examples I have checked out, does this extra "a" entry suggest it is connected to one of the five registrations on the relevant page number?
In Dec 1919 Holborn (1b) page 1230 the only likely one is
Bennett, Harold
mother Bennett
Which comes up on the new index as
BENNETT, HAROLD
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1919 D Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 1230 Occasional Copy: A
-
Side tracking, nothing to do with Alice…that 1921 census with Charles Brams with his Aunt & Uncle
There is a daughter Elizabeth Bennett who is 13 - her “mother” is 70!
-
oops :o
Evelyn May Brams is showing as a widow on her Probate Death Index entry:
Evelyn May Brams of 27 Hayes Lane Kenley Surrey, widow, died 29 July 1964
Administration London 8 September to Harold Douglas Brams store departamental manager.
£1262
Evelyn, widow, is living with a Samuel Derrick, working as his housekeeper, at the time of the 1939 Register in Surrey. Her birth date shows as 29 Jan 1900.
Monica
-
I would imagine that was because being a widow would appear more respectable than being a deserted wife.
By 1939 hubby was long gone with the "other" woman.
-
Hubby died in 1935, so she was a widow.
-
So Harold Douglas must definitely be her son. Is that what you/we are saying?
-
Looks like it. Whether he was also Charles's son need to be confirmed I think. If the story is true, was Harold the baby that she was pregnant with that resulted in Charles and Evelyn splitting up?
Monica
-
Harold born 1919, is the son that she had with another man, which caused the split in the marriage.
That is the way I understand the information supplied in the opening post.
Unfortunately, it has not been possible to get any further clarity from the OP.
-
Thanks for the reminder, Neale :)
Don't think I have seen this info...
Harold todler was with his maternal grandparents in 1921.
Charles Brams was with uncle and aunt in Islington in 1921.
Has Evelyn been found in 1921? All I have been able to find on the index is an Eva Brams in Guilford, Surrey. Right age. Saw also by 'hovering' that there was also an Alice and Annie at that address. But can't figure who the Alice is as there are too many results, but she is not Brams!
Monica
-
The Annie in the 1921 is Heywood, she is down as a boarder and Eva is down as a visitor and married.
Eva is shown as age 21 years and 5 months and married, born Somerset.
This is Evelyn's birth record:-
Births Mar 1900
Derrick Evelyn May St. Olave 1d 266
No idea why her birthplace has been recorded as Somerset.
-
Was there an Alice in the household? Or did I dream her ;D
Monica
-
There was an Alice, surname Nash and wife of householder. Husband, wife, daughter and then Annie H and Eva.
-
the occupation of Eva Brams (married) in the 1921 born Somerset is "Cow Girl'. That doesn't seem like the occupation of someone born in London
-
Mckha489
During the war, women did the farm work. Could this be an explanation for "cow girl"?
-
Just a thought and view's welcome of course. Charles "went off" with an Alice (Myrtle) Steel born so we believe c 1896/7. By approx 1921 she would have been 24/25. It is possible she was married and Steel is her married name not maiden name?
John
-
That thought did cross my mind John. If both were married then not legally free to marry each other. Not that that stopped some people though! ::)
-
Thanks Girl Guide. An exercise I have done over the last 24 hours is to search and try and account for all Alice Myrtle's regardless of surname born 1895-1898. Many had trees on Anc* that when researched worked out. Only 1 I could not fully pin down was an Alice Myrtle Rivett born sq 1895 Linton. Will look further if time allows this morning.
John
added, found Alice Myrtle Rivett in 1921 in Manchester, believe she married sq 1921 Chorlton John W Dickinson. They appear together in 1939 reg.
Alice Myrtle Dickinson
22 May 1895 Jan 1979 Jan-Feb-Mar Tameside Greater Manchester
The search continues
-
I'm afraid you can discount Alice Myrtle Rivett. She is in the 1921 census living in Manchester and single. Age 25 years and 1 month.
In September of 1921 she marries a John W. Dickinson.
-
Sorry posts crossed.
John
-
One of the problems census wise is that full names are not always included. So you can get Alice Ms with no idea what the M is. Or just plain Alice and second name omitted.
-
I also wondered if Alice may have married a Mr. Steel previously, but have found nothing as yet.
Another couple of things also crossed my mind, one being that she was born Myrtle Alice and swapped her names around as she preferred Alice. The other thought is that Steel could be an anglicised version of her birth name, maybe from a German sounding name such as Stahl for example. I have checked for an Alice or Myrtle Stahl but nothing pops up.
Keep searching.
-
I also wondered if Alice may have married a Mr. Steel previously, but have found nothing as yet.
Ditto. Ditto. Ditto.
-
I think I've found Charles in the 1921 census name down as Bramo. Living with his uncle and aunt William and Mary Bennett in Islington plus others.
Do we know which one is Charles's relation, William or Mary?
From free index, they have an Elizabeth Bennett, 14, with them (daughter)
-
John and Girl, It is a real possibility.
-
I think I've found Charles in the 1921 census name down as Bramo. Living with his uncle and aunt William and Mary Bennett in Islington plus others.
Do we know which one is Charles's relation, William or Mary?
Possibly Elizabeth Bliss / Brams mum, and Charles's granny?
NOVIS, HENRIETTA
Mother's Maiden Surname: BAXTER
GRO Reference: 1851 D Quarter in MAIDSTONE Volume 05 Page 377
Is she the Mary Bennett born Maidstone in Islington in 1921, and thus Charles's great aunt? :-\
NOVIS, MARY ANN
Mother's Maiden Surname: BAXTER
GRO Reference: 1848 M Quarter in MAIDSTONE Volume 05 Page 345
Baptisms at Maidstone
11 June 1848, Mary Anne Matilda
Parents Thomas + Mary Anne Novis
Father a Plumber
11 January 1852, Henrietta
Parents Thomas + Mary Novis
Father a Plumber
Mary Ann married Thomas Rooks in Lambeth in 1875. Seem to be already together in 1871 in Battersea, living same house as Mary's parents, Thomas the plumber and Mary A (Norris)