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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: JulieAE on Thursday 04 May 23 05:50 BST (UK)
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Looking for information on my great great grandfather James Martin who was born 2/2/1832 Woolwich, Kent, UK. James was stoker in the Royal Navy and while in Malta he met and married Maria Dolores Aloysia Caruana in 1860. On James and Maria's marriage document it states his parents are John Martin and Elizabeth Carroll. John Martin and Elizabeth Carroll married in St Mary Parish, Newington, Southwark, Surrey in 1827. I found the marriage of John and Elizabeth and I have had no luck finding more information... I would really appreciate any help I can get.
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1827 Marriage is on FreeREG;
Witnesses, John/Elizabeth Martin
Note;
Witness 1 John MARTIN Senior. Bride, groom & both witnesses signed with their marks
So John the witness was likely the Father of John who married.
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Hiya Julie - and a warm welcome to Rootschat
not all trees are correct - but have a look at this one
James Giacomo Martin - marries Maria Dolores Aloysia Caruana - they married twice - 1860 in an Anglican church - and in 1866 in a Catholic church
https://gw.geneanet.org/familypompei?n=martin&oc=&p=james+giacomo
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Family Tree Preview
Ancestry Chart Descendancy Chart Printable Family Tree
John Snr. Martin ca 1764- Elizabeth Goodall ca 1764-
William Carroll ca 1762-ca 1836 Charlotte Sendall 1848-1862
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John Martin ca 1795- Elizabeth Carroll 1796-
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James 'Giacomo' *Stoker in Royal British Navy* Martin 1832-
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tree owner is a FEMALE J Martin ...presumably a descendant of James - are you ??
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quote from records - his ship
Occupation - HMS Medina
James was a stoker (a fireman) in the Navy on the HMS Medina
25 May 1860 : Marriage (with Maria Dolores Aloysia Caruana)
Many couples married twice due to religion and mixed marriages not being accepted until 1892.
James Martin was English - in 1860 they married in an Anglican Church.
Maria Dolores Aloysia Caruana was Maltese - in 1866 they remarried in a Catholic Church.
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Thank you everyone, all the information is from my own tree, thank you for looking, what I am trying to do is find a paper trail from Newington, Surrey where John and Elizabeth were married in 1827 and moved to Woolwich, Kent to where James was born 2/2/1832. I was born and live in Australia so I dont really know much about Surrey and Woolwich, I have read a lot about the places but not enough to be able to search the right places to find James' baptism record or any census records.
I would like to see if I can find if my great-great grandfather James Martin had any siblings. John and Elizabeth married in 1827 so I would think their first child would of been born in 1828/29? then another 1830? then James 1832 and possibly more? I have been searching for over a year and half and have had no luck.
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I forgot to say 'Yes I am a descendant of James Martin' my maiden name is Martin. My dad Allen Vincent Martin passed away in August 2020 he is the son of John Alfred Martin born 1900 Alexandria, Egypt and Epiphania Pompei born 1905 Smyrna, Turkey.
John Alfred Martin is the son of Alfred John Martin born 1876 Smyrna, Turkey and Josephine Devisian born 1897 Smyrna Turkey.
Alfred John Martin is the son of James Martin born 1832 Woolwich, Kent and Maria Dolores Aloysia Caruana born 1839 Vittoriosa, Malta. (James was their 7th child)
James Martin is the son of John Martin and Elizabeth Carroll who married in Newington, Southwark, Surrey in 1827.
I truly appreciate everyone trying to help, thank you.
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I did a couple of days ago have a good look for other children to John/Elizabeth besides your James 1832 with little luck.
Is there an occupation for the Father of James on M/C's you have?
Trish :)
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Worth mentioning that at Woolwich were Army barracks, so your James may have been born there while his father was a soldier, and then the family moved on elsewhere.
Can you give all the information from Jame's marriage record please?
Is it possible James had an earlier marriage?
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You might want to look into this family further.
1851 census Woolwich
John Martin 59, machinist, born Taunton
Elizabeth Martin 50 born ---Sanford ?
Francis Martin 21 born Barnstable, machinist – (he eventually ends up as a chief engineer with Royal Navy)
James Martin 18 born Barnstable, machinist
Same family in 1841 census Barnstaple Devon
John Martin 45, Smith
Elizabeth Martin 45
Francis Martin 12
Mary Martin 10
James Martin 6
Sarah Martin 2
James MARTIN (b abt 1832) Marriage in 1853 Erith Kent to Louisa YALE
On marriage is an engineer and son of John Martin
James’ brother Francis Martin is witness
By 1861 census Louisa Martin is alone, claims to be a widow, has 3 children: Joseph Francis 6, A Louisa 3, George Edwin 1.
Louisa Martin remarries in 1863.
When son Joseph Francis Martin marries in 1876 he names his father as James Martin - Engineer with Royal Navy
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James and Maria married in 1860 in Vittoriosa Malta, the first marriage document was a Military Register 2 marriage banns, on it it states the date 20 June 1860 their parents, John Martin and Elizabeth, Angelo Caruana and Pepina (deceased). It also states James is a stoker on the HMS Medina Its also states James born Woolwich and Maria born Malta, British Armed Forces And Overseas Banns And Marriages.
The second marriage document is in Latin, translated in states they married St Lawrence Parish 20 June 1866 Vittoriosa, Malta this document has full name of parents, John Martin and Elizabeth Carroll, Angelo Caruana and Josepha Mamo.
Unfortunately neither have fathers occupation documented on them.
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Catholic baptism at St George Southwark, 15 Nov 1835, connected or not? :-\
Gulielmus Martin
born 4 Aug 1835
son of Joannis + Elizabethae Martin olim Carroll
sponsor Anna Carroll
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Hi Neale 1961, I thought that was James' family to begin with, but they are from Devon and the children were born in Barnstaple not Woolwich, I spoke to the person who this family belongs to and she agreed this was not my James family, as Devon is a fair distance from Woolwich. James also was a stoker not an engineer. I wish this was easier, I thought maybe the Navy may have had enlistment records, which may have had all his details, but have not been able to find such a document.
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Hi jon65, James parents were Anglican, they married in St Mary Parish, Newington, Southwark in Surrey in 1827, then moved to Woolwich in Kent, James was born 2nd February 1832, so I am not sure if that the right connection, but I will look into it, thank you for sharing that information.
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Hi
The marriage would have had to have been in an Anglican church at that time, but perhaps one of James' parents was Catholic? Though I've no idea, of course.
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Something else to investigate?
A marriage at Christ Church Southwark, 29 March 1839
Thomas Young, Of Full age, Widower, Chaff Cutter, residence 4 Brownsell Court, father Thomas Young, Chaff Cutter
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Elizabeth Martin, Of Full age, Widow, residence 2 Brownsell Court, father James Carroll, Private in the Army
They might have had a son William baptized at St George the Martyr Southwark, 14 June 1840 (born 4 May 1840)?
YOUNG, (Male)
Mother's Maiden Surname: CARROLL
GRO Reference: 1840 J Quarter in SAINT GEORGE THE MARTYR SOUTHWARK Volume 04 Page 391
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jonw65, thank you very much, I will follow up on this information, I appreciate your help.
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I haven't really got anywhere with the Youngs in 1841.
If it is the same Elizabeth on those baptism records in 1835 and 1840, then presumably William Martin born 4 August 1835 had died.
James was born 2nd February 1832
Where does the 2nd February date come from? Do you know when he died, and the age given?
How reliable is the Woolwich place of birth?
There is a James Martin born 3 Feb 1829 and baptized St George the Martyr, Southwark, 25 Feb 1829.
Parents John and Elizabeth, abode Kent Street, father a Labourer.
The same couple may then have gone on to have a daughter Maria, born 18 Jan 1831, who was baptized at St Mary Newington, 16 Feb 1831 (Kent Street, father Labourer)
I would imagine though that there were a few John and Elizabeth Martins about.
The one navy record I can see that might be your man, UK, Naval Officer and Rating Service Records, 1802-1919, on ancestry
quote from records - his ship
Occupation - HMS Medina
James was a stoker (a fireman) in the Navy on the HMS Medina
James Martin
Served on the Medina from 8 May 1854 (age 22) to 24 January 1859
Again from 25 Jan 1859 to 11 March 1861
Then on the Alacrity, 1861-63 (later rating on there "Musician")
On to the Phoebe, 1863-66, Victoria, 1866, finally the Royal Oak, 29 Sep 1866 to 7 May 1867 (Painter 1st Class on all those)
If him, what was he doing before 1854? Was he not in the Royal Navy?
Could James have been in the merchant service?
Incidentally, there is James Martin, born 1830, St George, Surrey, in the merchant seamen's records (BT113)
But I don't have access to this at the moment, so I can't say if it might be relevant to anything.
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Hi jonw65,
I have my grandfathers 1941 diary and in it he has written his great grandfather James Martin's date of birth 2/2/1832 Woolwich, Kent also on my great grandmother Josephine Martin (born Devisian and Alfred's wife) on her death certificate it has the family are British subject as James was born in Woolwich, Kent.
I was thinking maybe Elizabeth Carroll came from Surrey and John came from Woolwich and they got married in St Mary, Newington as it may have been Elizabeth's home town, as I was told when couples married it was in the brides home town. The record you have of James being in the Royal Navy are correct.
That is a good question what was he doing before? I thought if I found census records I might be able to find more but have not found anything yet. Do you think maybe his father John Martin may also have been in the Navy and that is why James was in the Navy?
Is there a way to see just Woolwich census records, because when I put in Woolwich it comes up with other areas and if I put exact Woolwich it comes up with nothing? I have Elizabeth Carroll's parents as William Carroll and Charlotte Sendall, not sure if that helps.
Thank you so much for helping.
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jonw65, I have an Ancestry tree, and have also completed a DNA test, I also had my aunt and uncle do DNA tests and a cousin, and have found cousins, and we all have Young DNA matches, I wonder if we have common ancestors?
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Hi
On the census, I don't know what site you are looking on. UK records are free on ancestry this weekend, and on there you can use the "Lived in" box, it will fill as Woolwich, Kent, England. Registration district is Greenwich.
Similarly, as a place of birth (though that requires the transcription to be correct!)
As birth certificates were only introduced in England and Wales in 1837 we are reliant on baptisms. Which don't tell us where someone was born. Usually it's in the same place, but in the greater London area we are looking at we can't be sure of that.
What I am pondering is, how likely is it that there were two John Martin / Elizabeth Carroll couples around at the same time in what we would now call South London.
Yes, being Woolwich, it is possible, as Neale also suggested, that there is a military connection.
I will keep looking.
Do we know why James and Maria stayed in Turkey?
Jon
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Hi Jon,
James and Maria had their first 5 children in Malta, then moved to Smyrna in Turkey where they had their next 4 children, my great grandfather Alfred being the 7th born. Alfred was born in 1876 and married an Armenian Josephine Devisian, they were there through all the devastation that happened. Alfred and Josephine had four children John my grandfather born 1900 Alexandria Egypt (Alfred was working in Egypt for the Egyptian Delta Light Railway as a Traffic Inspector) Malvina was born in 1904, then Germaine in 1906, then they came back to Smyrna Turkey and Adelaide was born 1908.
I think James and Maria were living in Istanbul in the 1920-1930's, as my grandfather John went and stayed with them for a while. James and Maria did come back to England but I am not sure when, I did hear a story that they were waiting to board a ship to go back to Malta but their luggage and all their belongings were stolen on the dock. So I don't know whether or not they landed back in Europe or stayed in England.
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I use Ancestry, My Heritage, Find My past and Family Search and any other site suggested and that I find while searching. There are a lot of James and John Martin's I haven't found as many Elizabeth Carroll's. Were there any other areas in Woolwich named something different?
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Hi
I think the neighbouring parishes are Charlton (next Woolwich) and Plumstead. Probably they did not have very large populations.
Greenwich is nearby. If in doubt you can search the census by registration district, Greenwich and also Lewisham.
I don't think finding out about James and Maria in Turkey would be easy. Mind you, it's not proving easy finding James in England either.
I have followed that Southwark trail in case the Woolwich place of birth is misleading us. But unfortunately the possible Young connection, whether it is right or wrong for your James, has not got me anywhere so far.
Jon
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Hi Jon,
Through DNA I have found found descendants of James and Maria in Turkey, Italy and Cyprus. Alfred left Josephine and the children about 1920 and remarried an Italian Anastasia Cassano they had a son who they named James Alfred Martin he was born in 1921 in Smyrna, Turkey, they moved to Egypt. My paternal family are all over the place. Thank you for helping me I really appreicate it.
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Hi
It must make for a very interesting family tree, with people from many different countries. Hard to keep track of, perhaps!
There is a James Martin born 3 Feb 1829 and baptized St George the Martyr, Southwark, 25 Feb 1829.
Parents John and Elizabeth, abode Kent Street, father a Labourer.
Well, I have now got hold of that merchant seaman's ticket. And I think it is looking likely that the James Martin baptized in Southwark in 1829 is your man. What do you think?
Register ticket 416,811
James Martin
Born at St. George's in the County of Surrey 2nd day of Feby 1830
Capacity Ordinary Seaman
Age when ticketed 18
Height growing
Hair brown
Complexion light
Eyes grey
Marks Scar on rt leg
Can write Yes
First went to Sea (Blank)
(Has served in the Royal Navy - also Blank, so presumably no)
When unemployed resides at 30 High(t?) St
Issued at Shoreham 26 day of June 1848
All of the tickets on that page were issued at Shoreham.
So his date of birth is the same as you have, 2 Feb. On the baptism in Southwark it was 3 Feb (very close!)
I think James may have lost a year from his age on this record, and a couple more when he joined the Royal Navy. He would have been in his mid twenties in 1854 and probably decided to say he was a bit younger.
There seems to be a trail here from the marriage of John and Elizabeth to the baptism of James to the sea record(s).
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This may be my James, how do I find the merchant seamans ticket?
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It's in Britain, Merchant Seamen, 1835-1857, on findmypast, if you have that.
There are 8 James Martins born 1830, and he is the one born St George, Surrey, BT 113 / 209.
The transcript says his date of birth is 23 Jul 1830, how on earth they got that I don't know. It certainly is 2 Feb on the original.
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Thank you I will have a look
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There is a James Martin born 3 Feb 1829 and baptized St George the Martyr, Southwark, 25 Feb 1829.
Parents John and Elizabeth, abode Kent Street, father a Labourer.
Well done Jonw65. I had seen that baptism for James and his sister Maria, and thought it seemed a strong possibility. Your find with the seaman's ticket adds extra weight.
A note regarding the address - Kent Street. It was a very long and narrow road which ran southeast from the church of St. George Southwark towards Kent. Now called Old Kent Road (A2), it was part of the great way from Dover (and the Continent) to the metropolis on London until the early nineteenth century.
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I have a question...
If John and Elizabeth married in St Mary, Newington, Southwark, Surrey, wouldnt their children be baptised in the same church?
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Their daughter Maria was baptised there. The family may not have had a strong tie to any particular church. Which ever church was closer was often the one used.
As a labourer, John Martin, may have moved around a bit with his family - going wherever there was work.
Added -
St. George Southwark and St Marys Newington are really very close to each other.
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OK thank you for that explanation
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Just a few more thoughts on that ….
Both children, James and Maria were baptised on a Wednesday. Looking at the church registers there appear to be a number of group baptisms on Sundays and Wednesdays.
Wednesday was a popular market day, so maybe that is when the Martins came into town. They may not have been regular Sunday church goers.
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Thank you for sharing that information
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Catholic baptism at St George Southwark, 15 Nov 1835, connected or not? :-\
Gulielmus Martin
born 4 Aug 1835
son of Joannis + Elizabethae Martin olim Carroll
sponsor Anna Carroll
Hi Jon,
Where might I find this document please?
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Hi Julie
That is also on findmypast, with image, in England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
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Gulielmus is Latin for William, so maybe the ancestors of this William Martin come from Greece?
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At this time RC baptism records used Latinised versions of English names, so any William would be recorded like this.
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Hi
I think it's just that the Catholic registers tend to use the Latin form of names. The whole entry seems to be written in Latin.
It's a pity there is only one godparent, Ann(a) Carroll, but at least it looks like she must be a relative. I would think that Elizabeth probably had a Catholic background. If that is her remarriage to Thomas Young, then her father was James Carroll, a soldier. Lots of soldiers in the British Army were Irish, and Carroll is an Irish kind of name.
From that later baptism record I mentioned, Thomas Young and Elizabeth may have a had a son of the same name in 1840. Though can't be certain, because the birth registration just says male. If it's the same Elizabeth, then presumably the first William died, but I haven't been able to pin down a burial. In my own families in the area there are some missing burials though, possibly due to lost records (small local non parish church burial grounds?)
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Thank you for sharing that information. I am not sure if it is the same Elizabeth Carroll as the only birth I could find for Elizabeth Carroll was
Elizabeth baptised 26 Dec 1797 of William and Charlotte. I found a marriage for William Carroll and Charlotte Sendall 1791 which has witnesses Ann Carroll and Jno Chris'pher Christman.
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Hi
But if Elizabeth was born when her father was serving as a soldier then she might have been born anywhere in the British Empire.
If born later, and they were Catholic, then it would be harder to find a baptism. She might have been born in Ireland. We just don't know.
We know John Martin's father was another John (John Martin senior, the marriage witness), so James Martin could have been named after Elizabeth's father. This makes sense also for the February 1829 baptism, being the first likely child after the marriage in 1827.
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Hi Jon,
So I may have Elizabeth with the wrong parents. Ok I do think the Merchant Seaman's ticket you found for James is correct, I think he is my great-great grandfather James Martin born 2nd Feb 1832 and he changed the year of birth to 1830 so he was 18 when he registered. So if that is the case that gives James a sister Maria born in 1831 and do you think William is his brother? and I need to search for new parents for Elizabeth. Your help is truly appreciated.
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Hi
I think the Catholic baptism is probably connected.
If the Elizabeth Martin, widow, marriage to Thomas Young in 1839 is right, then you need to look for a death/burial of John Martin between 1835ish and 1839, presumably in the Southwark area.
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Thank you I will start searching
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26 Oct 1837.
There is a burial at St George the Martyr, Southwark for a John Martin, age 43.
Abode Staple Street.
There is a matching death registration for this man.
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Hi Neale1961,
Where can I find those documents please, your help is very much appreciated.
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From a couple of my Carroll DNA matches they have stated that the Carroll's were Poor hard rock miners from Ireland, will this be of any help in searching for Elizabeth and her parents?
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Death registration details_
MARTIN, JOHN Age - 43
GRO Reference: 1837 D Quarter in OF SAINT GEORGE THE MARTYR SOUTHWARK Volume 04 Page 94
I am not sure how much more information you get on the civil certificate that is not on the burial record - probably cause of death, and possibly informant's name.
The burial record is on Ancestry.
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Thank you
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Catholic baptism at St George Southwark, 15 Nov 1835
Gulielmus Martin
born 4 Aug 1835
son of Joannis + Elizabethae Martin olim Carroll
sponsor Anna Carroll
Possible death for that child.
MARTIN, WILLIAM Age 2
GRO Reference: 1837 S Quarter in OF SAINT GEORGE THE MARTYR SOUTHWARK Volume 04 Page 99
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Thank you
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I wanted to find a burial record for that 2 yr old William to see if the address matches that of John Martin's burial. That would confirm we are working with the same family.
But no luck - I wonder if you or Jon might find a burial record that I have missed.
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Thanks Neale1961 I will search
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I found this
https://www.ancestry.com.au/discoveryui-content/view/9547112:1559?tid=180480961&pid=292499180385&queryId=3fe268c1edd4f021e10bfe5cb3b089fa&_phsrc=Zko17&_phstart=successSource
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Yes, I found the same thing, but that child was not aged 2, but rather 7 weeks or 7 months.
There is a death registration for him in Bermondsey, age 0
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OK I will keep looking
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A possible death of William Young born 1840 (though we don't really know if he died young or not!)
YOUNG, WILLIAM
Age at Death (in years): 1
GRO Reference: 1841 S Quarter in ST MARY NEWINGTON Volume 04 Page 207
No burial found :-\
Can't see anybody resembling him in the area in the 1841 census.
Re the sea record for James Martin. Being ticketed in Shoreham (Sussex), I would think he was probably on a fishing vessel.
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The William Martin (2 yrs) death in 1837, I think must be the same child baptised R.C. in 1835. Without seeing a burial register, I can’t link him to the John Martin (43 yrs) who died a short while after. I think the only thing to do would be to get the 2 death certificates, in the hope of finding the same address or informant’s name. This would confirm we are looking at the same family.
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I have been doing a lot of looking, but have been finding it difficult to make progress with this lot.
Since Ann Carroll was named as godmother on the 1835 baptism, we assume that she was either Elizabeth’s sister (unmarried) or sister-in-law (a married woman).
I have spent a long while looking at a few possibilities only to eventually rule them out.
But what about a stepmother??
Below is a possibility. See what you think ….
1841 census St Mary, Newington, Surrey. Kent Street- Royal Kent Court
Ann Carroll 40 born Ireland
Edward Carroll 12 born in county
Dennis Carroll 4 born in county
Matilda Carroll 2 born in county
Plus many more with different surnames –
(Ann Carroll’s relationship to the children is not recorded.)
Here are the 3 children in 1851
1851 census in Southwark St George (lodging house, Queen st)
James Carroll 74, wharf labourer, born St Martins in Fields, Middlesex
Julia Carroll 53, wife born Bantry Ireland, domestic matters (Is this the Ann Carroll in 1841?)
Edward Carroll, 21, son born Southwark, wharf labourer
Dennis Carroll 15, son born Newington
Matilda Carroll 12, daughter born Newington
Margaret Carroll 23 hawker, born Limerick Ireland. (Recorded as wife? Maybe an error and is a daughter?)
The wife Julia seems to be a lot younger and could be a second wife. Could she be “Julia Ann”?
Birth rego for child:
CARROLL, MATILDA Mother: MACCARTY
GRO Reference: 1839 M Quarter in ST MARY NEWINGTON Volume 04 Page 355
Matilda Carroll (age 9) is in the Southwark workhouse in 1848. (Mother Julia also in wk-house at the same time; both recorded as Roman Catholic)
Matilda marries in 1857 Southwark to Charles Johnson. Father recorded as James.
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Then there is this item which may or may not be related to the same James in the above census.
Register of Regimental Service
90th foot soldiers – Serjeants Aug 1807
James CARROL
When made a serjeant - 13 Dec 1801 at Age 28 yrs and 3 months
Size – 5 ft 6 ¼ inches
Born St Pancras, Middlesex
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Hi Neale1961,
I have just seen your last message and I do believe my Elizabeth Carroll did re-marry Thomas Young, You could be right that Ann may be a step mother, I have had no luck finding anything on Ann Carroll.
I will look into thie information on James Carroll to see what else I can find.
Register of Regimental Service
90th foot soldiers – Serjeants Aug 1807
James CARROL
When made a serjeant - 13 Dec 1801 at Age 28 yrs and 3 months
Size – 5 ft 6 ¼ inches
Born St Pancras, Middlesex
Your help is trult appreciated, Thank you so much
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Yes, I found the same thing, but that child was not aged 2, but rather 7 weeks or 7 months.
There is a death registration for him in Bermondsey, age 0
Hi Neale1961,
I noticed the marriage of Elizabeth Martin and Thomas Young is at the Parish of St Paul "Bermondsey", do you think this may add to the connection? I am still searching...