RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: dragonlady403 on Monday 01 May 23 04:44 BST (UK)
-
Hi there, could anyone assist me with a "persistently naughty" relative plse. Timothy Patrick Murphy born in Wellington 1883 to Daniel and Johanna Murphy - was an AUSTRALIAN soldier in WW1 (I say that with tongue in cheek to some degree because it looks like he spent as much time in prison and/or waiting for court martials as he did in battles!).
It appears he returned from war and also returned to Wellington NZ sometime thereafter.
Then, naturally, he pops up in Wellington Prison in April 1932 writing to the military requesting they send him his war medals. I have no idea how long he was in prior to this or why, or for how long.
I have tried to locate him on the Police Gazettes and, oddly, PapersPast, but was unsuccessful for either which I don't understand.
I wonder if someone could assist in locating him in the Kiwi penal system for me plse.
Thanks, as always,
Carol
-
Could he possibly be working at the Prison?
I see on the enlistment papers he didn’t use the Patrick. (I don’t think I’ve ever read one that has so many “events” :))
I was interested to see he wrote asking for them on the 4th April, they were sent registered post on the 11th and he signed the receipt on the 26th. Pretty good service.
-
Lol, he's got one of the longest set of military records I've ever seen and they're pretty much him getting in trouble for one reason or another. He sure was entertaining to research!
His father made a point of disinheriting him as well!
Which, is why the thought he might be employed by the prison floated through my brain cells for a second before I punted it as being highly improbable.
But he's definitely writing from the prison. I think if he just worked there he'd have the medals sent to his home.
I'm also curious about why his sudden interest in having them...they probably weren't worth anything value wise.
-
It does seem weird there is nothing in the papers though.
Could he have had an alias?
(He only got the Victory medal didn’t he. It might be the discharge papers that were more important. Although I can’t think why. a pension of some sort?
-
No, I Think he got all 3 of the medals. But I'll have to confirm that.
An alias is possible I guess. He may have been trying to avoid contact with his father...they had a fractious relationship by the looks of it.
I wonder if there's a way to go through the prison records by date only?
-
A side note...which Downes in London are you interested in? I saw the name listed in your posts...
-
Thomas William Downes bapt 7 May 1786 st James, Clerkenwell. son of John Downes & Elizabeth Wildbore
He married 1, Susan Boyce and had 10 children
Then 2 Sarah Rebecca Gregory and had another 9 children.
This second family (mostly) came to NZ where Thomas died in Picton 1866.
My friend whose tree I work on is a descendant of Emily Louisa Downes. 1845-1918
-
Could one of these be your man??
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/periodicals/NZPG19180130.2.8?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=timothy+murphy&snippet=true&title=NZPG%2cOPG
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/periodicals/NZPG19180911.2.5?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=timothy+murphy&snippet=true&title=NZPG%2cOPG
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/periodicals/NZPG19210112.2.4?items_per_page=10&page=2&phrase=2&query=timothy+murphy&snippet=true&title=NZPG%2cOPG
Minniehaha.
-
Could one of these be your man??
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/periodicals/NZPG19180130.2.8?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=timothy+murphy&snippet=true&title=NZPG%2cOPG
not this one, or the next same man & Wrong height
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/periodicals/NZPG19180911.2.5?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=timothy+murphy&snippet=true&title=NZPG%2cOPG
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/periodicals/NZPG19210112.2.4?items_per_page=10&page=2&phrase=2&query=timothy+murphy&snippet=true&title=NZPG%2cOPG
I wondered about him. he would have to have time to have three children. He appears in the papers quite a bit, of Hokitika, but mainly fined for drunk & disorderly so seems unlikely
Minniehaha.
-
I had not looked through his war file (?) so did not have height details etc...... ;D
Minniehaha.
-
War file
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=7984669
-
Hi Carol,
Wellington has had two prisons: the Terrace Gaol, more commonly known as Wellington Prison (located on The Terrace, the site of a number of judicial hangings) and opened in 1927, Mt Crawford Prison, which replaced it.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01s9b/
https://natlib.govt.nz/records/22391755
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/capital-life/9451478/Hangings-and-floggings-at-The-Terrace-Gaol
https://books.google.co.nz/books/about/The_Terrace_Gaol.html?id=S58qtwAACAAJ&redir_esc=y
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/media/photo/terrace-gaol
Spades
-
Thanks for those links Spades! I love the description of The Terrace Gaol in one of the links. Sounds like a wonderful place to stay:)
My rellie wrote from "Wellington Prison" in April 1932. I just can't, for the life of me, figure out when and why he was there:(
Regards, Carol
-
mckha489 - We're RELLIES!!! I will msge you separately on that.
Minniehaha and mckha489-- I also looked at that arrest for Timothy from Hokitika.. but "our' Timothy was listed as 5.4 in his Australian military medical records. He had blue eyes and dark brown hair. The guy arrested was listed as 5'8. I would think that's quite a big height discrepancy....?
Timothy Patrick had worked as a sheep shearer in Aussie, prior to enlistment. I've never found any records indicating a marriage - so definitely not sure about the family desertion aspect.
Also, I think the only crimes he ever committed were mostly against himself (i.e. drinking) and the rules (i.e. he considered them to be guidelines at best!).
I'm not sure what could have happened to land him in jail for any length of time (and not sure if it was more than 30 days to "sleep it off"). THAT BEING said - I recall seeing something in the Police Gazettes (I think) about "persistent" criminals (recidivism was rampant). I wondered if he'd been nicked under a regulation along those lines. Is that possible?
Carol
-
Hi Carol
* Where did your Timothy MURPHY die ??
[Just curious ... using this as a process of elimination :D]
~ Lu
-
Hi Lu:)
I don't know where he died, I was trying to track down his life after he returned from the war.
He had been living in NSW as a sheep shearer prior to the war. I actually thought he'd returned and died there, until I found his letter from Wellington Prison in April 32
Carol
-
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/periodicals/NZPG19210112.2.4?items_per_page=10&page=2&phrase=2&query=timothy+murphy&snippet=true&title=NZPG%2cOPG
Minniehaha.
Hi Carol
* * For Elimination * *
Am able to rule out the ^ above ^ Timothy MURPHY (husband of Martha - nee GROFSKY) who resided at Hokitika (and was born there c. 1885 ). He eventually returned to his wife and children - appears in electoral rolls for Westland area for numerous years working as a butcher.
He served WW1 NZ Army - Regt. # 5/80 - enlisted 18 Aug. 1914 - discharged June 1918.
He died in 1963 aged 78 years - is buried with wife Martha at Ruru Cemetery, Christchurch.
~ Lu
-
Cheers Carol ... have now eliminated the chap from Hokitika ... so will keep looking.
His father made a point of disinheriting him as well!
* Can you expand on this please ??
~ Lu
-
Lu- his father Daniel Murphy specifically mentioned in his will that he was not gifting anything to his son Timothy:
"UPON TRUST from and after the death of my said wife for such of my children other than my son Timothy Murphy as survive my said wife and me and if more than one then equally between them.
I declare that the reason why I have made no provisions for my said son Timothy Murphy is that during my lifetime his conduct towards me does not warrant me making any provision for him in this my Will."
Will written 21 Sept 1921
-
Lu, doesn't it seem really weird that he's not front and centre in the penal system records?
The guy doesn't seem to have been able to get through a week in the military without getting into trouble. It's an "impressive rap sheet"!
Then he just disappears until a Wgton prison letter surfaces in '32, where he suddenly wants his medals. I would have thought the Police Gazettes would have been full of his name lol.
-
Hi Carol
Yes, I agree, there is a very weird element to all of this. ::)
* Have you any further info on him during his years in Australia ??
Did he appear on electoral rolls ?
Was he involved in anything "untoward" during his AUS stay ? (Any newspaper reports abut him ?)
I've only read a little of his WW1 file -- and just skimmed over the "court martial" stuff. I probably need to analyse it further ... but my thinking is, with a record such as that whilst in the "care" of the AUS army, there are bound to have been other instances of unacceptable behaviour, once he was discharged.
~ Lu
-
Yes I agree, he was obviously a chronic alcoholic and had a lot of behavioural/authority related issues. But he never struck me as a violent man. His court martials were pretty much all being AWOL and silly stuff like using a fake pass to get out of barracks. And, of course, being drunk.
It appears from his military files he was exposed to mustard gas at least once and maybe even twice. That can't have helped his mental state.
I don't know much about his life in Aussie prior to enlistment- I had only recently realized who he was because he often dropped the Patrick from his name and there are A LOT of Timothy Murphy's around.
The Aus Army recruitment form essentially asks if they have a police record etc and he said he doesn't. He was almost 33 when he joined the army and I haven't found any police files in NZ or Aussie for him prior to his joining.
Mind you I was checking police files for the period around when his letter surfaced from the prison so perhaps I need to try to go further back to his early years. Will try that.
Carol
-
Hi Carol,
Is there any details of his medal application in his Army personnel file. It might provide an address.
And have you looked for him at Archives New Zealand?
https://collections.archives.govt.nz/en-GB/web/arena
Spades
-
Hi Spades, I do know he returned home from the war on 18 (or 15 depending on who you choose to believe) May 1918 on the Hospital Ship the Dunlacy Castle. So, from that I would assume he was injured (or suffering from the mustard gas exposure). His discharge papers said he was "debilitated" but had almost fully recovered... except for the rheumatism he was complaining of.
He was awarded The Star, The British War and the Victory medals (which I think most servicemen received?)
I don't know much about his life in Aussie prior to the war, other than he was a sheep shearer in NSW. In 1919 (when Tim would have returned from war) this guy was a cork cutter in Victoria and he may be a potential I will have to check further to see if there is anything else on this one.
Timothy Patrick Murphy
Gender Male
Electoral Date 1919
Electoral Place Moonee Ponds, Maribyrnong, Victoria, Australia
Also, I don't know when he returned to NZ. The challenge is that he often dropped the Patrick in his name and there seems to be hundreds of Timothy Murphy's between Aussie and NZ:(
I was really hoping his NZ police/penal records would shed light on the mysteries of his life!
Re the new Archives site -0-- to be honest I do everything I can to avoid the new site, I get a headache just thinking about finding my way through it. The older version was SO MUCH easier to navigate and yes I have a RealMe or whatever it is called login. I'll put my "big girl pants" on tomorrow and have another go at it!!!
Carol
-
I found an Australian conviction for a Timothy Murphy 10 June 1922 - in Central NSW convicted of 6 months hard labour (with a Patrick Murphy???). The year of birth fits, as does the general description.
It also states - he has been previously convicted --- which definitely fits.
-
Hi carol,
That last piece of data looks promising.
I suspect you already have, but have you tried the Australian newspaper website, Trove?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/
Yes, I agree, the Archives NZ search engine is a real pain. I've just had a look for him (search parameters, 'timothy murphy' and 'timothy patrick murphy') but only found two Army records, both for 'Timothy Murphy' but neither of them are your man. The one whose number was 5/80 looks to be the Hokitika bloke.
Regards,
Spades
-
I don't know much about his life in Aussie prior to the war, other than he was a sheep shearer in NSW. In 1919 (when Tim would have returned from war) this guy was a cork cutter in Victoria and he may be a potential I will have to check further to see if there is anything else on this one.
Timothy Patrick Murphy
Gender Male
Electoral Date 1919
Electoral Place Moonee Ponds, Maribyrnong, Victoria, Australia
Hi Carol
This Timothy Patrick MURPHY - Cork cutter - of Moonee Ponds ;D
claims to have been born "S. Melbourne" -- he was 25 years and 10 months ( bc 1889) when he enlisted in July ? 1915. His NoK , his wife Olive MURPHY of 60 Aspen Street, Moonee Ponds.
He was discharged as medically unfit (Muscular Rheumatism) on 10 October 1915.
I'll just go back and get his "vital statistics" ... as now I look back at your Timothy, this chap seems a similar height and complexion ???
~ Lu
-
I found an Australian conviction for a Timothy Murphy 10 June 1922 - in Central NSW convicted of 6 months hard labour (with a Patrick Murphy???). The year of birth fits, as does the general description.
It also states - he has been previously convicted --- which definitely fits.
... looks like him ??? ... it's not actually "with Patrick MURPHY ... " ... that "al" I'm pretty sure represents "alias". SO this Timothy was using the names "Patrick MURPHY and John CARNEY" .
Some more digging to do for sure. ;D
~ Lu
added :
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/252092319?searchTerm=Timothy%20Patrick%20Murphy
-
-- I also looked at that arrest for Timothy from Hokitika.. but "our' Timothy was listed as 5.4 in his Australian military medical records. He had blue eyes and dark brown hair. The guy arrested was listed as 5'8. I would think that's quite a big height discrepancy....?
Hi Carol
I couldn't find that info on your Timothy's AIF record (there's so much other stuff on those pages).
But on page 16 it states -- Age: 32 & 10 months -- 5ft 6 -1/2" --- 41 chest :
~ Lu
-
Lu... ::)::) ::) ::) ::)
LOL, I thought the "al" meant "also", but you're right it would mean alias!!! I've just got to say, the ingenuity, determination, and in some weird way, courage of Tim is astonishing. If he'd been raised in another family/time - he could have done pretty much anything with his life. Good grief.
Well that opens up a whole new universe doesn't it! No wonder I was having so much difficulty tracking him for large chunks of time... he wasn't "him".
Re height - yes you are correct there as well. There is the height he was recorded at when he enlisted and I recall seeing a the "shorter" one by a medical person later in his service. I chose the later one because the document seemed more detailed, obviously I should have just gone with the enlistment one.
So, if he is in Wellington prison - it now is quite likely he was operating under aliases there as well. I guess the Police Gazettes (if issued) would have had him listed under his various aliases until they caught up with him and figured out who he actually was?
His father died 22 Sept 1921 --- I wonder if that brought Tim back to NZ.
What about court cases - are they available in NZ? Surely, they would have to be under his correct name?
By the way, THANKS TO EVERYONE for contributions to this thread --- every little detail has helped build up his very colourful and busy life!!!!!!!
-
using the name John Carney - LOOK WHAT I FOUND!!!!
Look at that list of aliases :o And, this is listed under his alias of Patrick...
Now you can all see the "reprobate" himself:)
-
Carol, Carol, Carol .... :o .... I don't quite know what to say.
You've done wonderfully well with your digging !! :)
There are a couple of other MURPHY - Timothy / Patrick etc. combinations I was "working" through earlier -- one I can discount, and the other, still in progress. Will add these here shortly.
BUT there's more ... > > > see next > > >
~ Lu
-
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/periodicals/NZPG19311202.2.11.2.51?end_date=31-12-1931&items_per_page=10&query=Patrick+Murphy&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1931
MURPHY, Patrick -- alias MURPHY, Edward -- alias O'SULLIVAN, Patrick -- alias John CARNEY
.... and photos too.
I'm guessing you've got access to ancestry.com ?? Otherwise ... NZ Police Gazettes can be accessed via our PapersPast website https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers
> click on the "Magazines and Journals" in top bar. [Not sure if this gives full coverage of all P.G's. ?]
NZ Police Gazettes also accessible at Archives New Zealand site https://collections.archives.govt.nz/en-GB/web/arena#/
[Helpful if you want to search using specific year/s. ]
Now to dive into newspapers to find the details of the court cases ... I'm sure they'll be there. ;D
~ Lu
-
masquerading as ... Patrick MURPHY
This explains why he is in Mount Crawford Gaol in 1932. ;)
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19310918.2.70
[There are earlier Magistrate's court appearances for 1931 ... which probably give more detail ? ]
~ Lu
-
just wow!!!
First, well done Lu, for solving the "original" mystery!!! With all this new information, I can start to compile a more complete pic of his "very sorry" life back in NZ.
My next thought was - IN REALITY, Timothy should be considered an "over-achiever"!!! I mean, really, look at that list of crimes/convictions etc... You have to admit it is impressive:)
He has really aged between the 2 photos. I was saddened to see the "meths" addiction, but alcoholism was a foregone conclusion so I guess it's just one component of the addiction.
Working my way through all our new "resources" ;)
-
...'Morning Carol (it's probably evening where you are ? ) ...
Have to say I feel very sad about this poor man ... "today" he may have received help for his problems. :(
Here he is earlier in 1931 ...
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DOM19310625.2.33
And you gotta love that comment from the "Beak" . ;D
Magistrate (to MURPHY) ... "you have not got a bad record ... one, idle and disorderly and one, drunkeness. Can you pay a fine ? " ;D
~ Lu
-
Hi Carol
... do you know if Timothy had a sister who lived in Victoria AUS, say around 1914 to 1918 ???
Cheers
~ Lu
-
Well done both!
-
I know Lu :'(
Knowing the childhood history, it is no wonder he has emotional/behavioural issues. But throughout it all, he seemed to remain non-violent and continued to struggle with his obviously all encompassing addiction(s).
I suppose on the plus side, he survived much longer than I would have anticipated given his life story and struggles.
-
Thanks Jo!
I am very happy to have put Tim back into the family history... despite his struggles, he deserves to be there and, hopefully, viewed with empathy:)
Lu - I don't know, but give me a bit to run a check on the sister's.
-
Thanks mckha
... but you helped too ... every comment and snippet contributed, "is grist to the mill". :)
~ Lu
-
Lu, as far as I know there were 5 sister's and they are all accounted for in NZ
-
Thanks Carol.
I'll have to try another angle with my continuing "investigation . ;D
[As at 1938 - I've found four daughters in Johanna MURPHY's Will. ]
~ Lu
-
This is what I have...just not sure of a couple of their marriage details which I have been working on.
One of the daughter's mother's name is spelled incorrectly which may be an issue. But I know she existed and was the oldest (Annie)
Murphy
Annie 1879/5808 Johannah Daniel (The mother's name should be Johanna)
Johanna Ellen 1887-1955 1887/1526
Florence “Florie” 1888-1962 1889/17900 tbc
Catherine Mary Josephine 1883-1936 1883/694
Margaret Agnes 1892-1975 1892/10285
Catherine Mary would have died by 1938...
-
They'd record his death under his birth name right?
-
They'd record his death under his birth name right?
One would hope so ;D (and more especially as we're having to plough through all the aliases at present ... I mean we deserve an "easy road" when we get to the end of this !! Don't we ??? ) ;D
~ Lu
-
Will of Johanna MURPHY > 1938
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE77177174
~ Lu
Added: And Daniel's Will also >
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE75192532
-
Oh that's interesting. For some reason I don't have Johanna's will, only Daniel's. Thanks!
Re Tim... I don't know how to let you down easily:
But I can't find any likely records for his death in anything like a likely timeframe under the name Timothy. As usual there's lots of Patrick's which I'll have to wade though.
It's highly unlikely he would have gone back to Aussie, unless he was able to beat his addiction in jail.
If he died in prison, would he have been buried in a prison graveyard? Or transferred out to somewhere like Karori Cemetery (no record of him there).
-
This is what I have...just not sure of a couple of their marriage details which I have been working on.
One of the daughter's mother's name is spelled incorrectly which may be an issue. But I know she existed and was the oldest (Annie)
Murphy
Annie 1879/5808 Johannah Daniel (The mother's name should be Johanna)
Johanna Ellen 1887-1955 1887/1526
Florence “Florie” 1888-1962 1889/17900 tbc
Catherine Mary Josephine 1883-1936 1883/694
Margaret Agnes 1892-1975 1892/10285
Catherine Mary would have died by 1938...
OK ... can rule out this ^ Catherine Mary Josephine MURPHY. Certainly she had parents named "Johanna and Daniel MURPHY" ... BUT her birth is registered in the same year as that of your Timothy Patrick MURPHY (1883) :
Here are their "deets" >
1883 / 694 - MURPHY - Catherine Mary Josephine - Parents: Johanna and Daniel
[Date of Birth - deduced from the NZBDM (online) index = 21 March 1883 - registered at Wanganui :] This may, or may not, be the lady who married in 1925 to a William Martin SENK ?
She died (SENK) in 1936 (Hawkes Bay area) - aged 51 (@NZBDM) b.c. 1885 : Can't find supporting evidence though, for her being the Wanganui birth ?
1883 / 168 - MURPHY - Timothy Patrick - Parents: Joanna (sic) and Daniel MURPHY:
[His birthdate - deduced from NZ BDM (online) index = 26 February 1883 (not 25th as I think was given on his Army attestation ?? ) [Again, mother's name mis-spelled - but that's not a "biggie" .... we have to allow some leeway when it comes to spelling / transcriptions etc. ]
~ Lu
Adding ... ;D my usual cautionary note ... that just because names appear on family trees (@ancestry etc. etc.) ... it does NOT guarantee that the information is correct. :) AND the Catherine Mary Josephine MURPHY name is (unfortunately) "hitched up" with a number of "trees" for Timothy Patrick's family. ::) ;D ]
-
Ah yes, I see the dilemma. I think the fact she wasn't listed on Johanna's will might well be another factor to support your theory (as opposed to her having died before Johanna wrote her will).
Also I thought they may have been twins.. but obviously not if the dates are different!
I'm heading out for pizza and beer on a very hot night. I will do a deep dive into the family records to see what I find on my side of it.
THANKS:)
-
Re Tim... I don't know how to let you down easily:
Nah, nah, ... "nothing is off the table" ... yet !!!
Patience is the name of this game. :D
It's highly unlikely he would have gone back to Aussie, unless he was able to beat his addiction in jail.
If he died in prison, would he have been buried in a prison graveyard? Or transferred out to somewhere like Karori Cemetery (no record of him there).
I agree, he's unlikely to have returned to AUS.
As far as I am aware, there was no "prison graveyard" attached to Mount Crawford Gaol - especially in the era he was last known to have been residing in Wellington. There was a dedicated Asylum nearby ... also a well-known "Old Men's home" ... and a rather large Catholic cemetery at Mount Street (not to be confused with Mount Crawford). Karori Cemetery was Wellington's largest and catered for all denominations, as well as serving charities with pauper-type plots .
A lot of work still to be done to find his resting place. :)
~ Lu
.... enjoy that pizza ... AND that beer !!!
-
P.S. Have still to add here the results of " Timothy etc. etc. MURPHY" names which I have been able to eliminate from this search. :D
-
Hi Carol
... another "treat" for you (after the pizza and beers) ... "treat" may be the wrong word though ?
I've been able to find your Timothy Patrick's death (after a long haul through the Police Gazettes).
There was this entry for 1944 :
MURPHY - Patrick - tried at Wellington on 6 May 1943. Idle and disorderly (begging) - 14 days :
Born: NZ -- 5ft - 6 1/2" -- fresh complexion / grey hair / blue eyes / broken nose : Occupation: Labourer : 18 p.c. (prev. convictions) -- Listing gives same references as before - plus a newer one which mentions another photo (which I'll endeavour to locate ... along with finding his resting place_.
And sadly, ... with his name struck through in green ink ... the words
Died 19 / 7 / 44 * * Actual date of death is 5 July 1944
~ Lu
Added: ^ Needed to correct above date of death as it is printed wrongly in Police Gazette.
Verified in death notice, cemetery details and listing at NZ BDM (date deduced = 5 July 1944 ]
-
NZ BDM (online)
NZ Death Index
1944 / 2247 - MURPHY - Patrick - aged 61 years. [bc 1883]
Other info to follow >
~ Lu
-
Hi Carol
(Patrick ) Timothy MURPHY actually died in Auckland ... and correct date of death was
5 July 1944 (not 19 July, the date given in the Police Gazette).
Waikumete Cemetery, Auckland (Service persons section I think this must be ?)
12948 -- MURPHY - Patrick - 1914-1918 War - 5482 A.I.F. [Regt. details] Emblem - Plot 59
Ang (Anglican ?)
Died on 5 July 1944 - Buried on 8 July 1944 :
~ Lu
-
Funeral Notice(s) - Patrick MURPHY [akaTimothy Patrick MURPHY ]
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19440708.2.7
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS19440707.2.2.3
* Just need to further explore why the cemetery details give his A.I.F. Regimental number ... and these funeral notices give what appears to be " a New Zealand Regt. number" ???
** Will get back to you on that. ** Explantion now added below > >
~ Lu
Added : These newspaper notices give the WRONG Regimental details for this Patrick MURPHY whom we now know was the Timothy Patrick MURPHY being sought here. It is not the fault of the newspaper - the information would likely have been given by the NZ R.S.A. (Returned Services Assn) - no doubt in the absence of next-of-kin. Their task would have been probably to locate a record for a New Zealand-born soldier. Oddly enough, there are similarites - both physical features and an almost common date of birth - between these two men. But there endeth the "match". A little more attention to the file of soldier "17/389 " would have shown he was born in Dundalk, Ireland. At least, the correct Regimental details are recorded by Waikumete Cemetery.
And, not the first time I've encountered the NZ RSA making this kind of error !!
Anyway, here's the link to "17/389's " file ... in case anyone's interested. ;D https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE18360676
-
More from the newspapers ... death of Patrick MURPHY
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS19440707.2.87
There's Inquest details to come too ... PapersPast not loading well at the moment, so will add later.
~ Lu
-
AAAAW Lu!!!!! I don't know whether to cry, or clap :'( :'( :-\ :)
How on earth did you unravel all that tangle of threads? I was looking around the Wgton area and within a year or two of his Wgton Prison incarceration --- assuming, he was in such rough shape he wouldn't have lasted much longer and was staying "close to home in his final years". I underestimated Tim's resilience once again.
I would never have even recognized the issue with the Regimental numbers - that's some seriously diligent and dedicated investigative work. WELL DONE AND OUR FAMILY IS (and will for future generations be) GRATEFUL TO YOU:)
To be honest, I am a bit shocked Tim lasted into his 60's. I mean he joined the war in his 30's and look at that 30 year "journey" he had. To end up homeless, in a gully in a different city, is a very sad conclusion to a very challenging and colourful life.
I checked the place of death "Grafton Gully"...it seems like a bit of a wilderness area and a place where the homeless would set up:
From Wiki:
"Grafton Gully is a deep (about 50 m) and very wide (about 100 m) gully running northwards towards the sea through the volcanic hills of the Auckland volcanic field in New Zealand. It divides the CBD from the suburbs of Grafton and Parnell in the east.
History
The Grafton Gully was formerly home to the Waipārūrū Stream, known to early European settlers as the Graveyard Spring.[1]"
I was however, heartened to see that when he was buried his military service was recognized. He, at least, deserves that.
I will go through your links and download everything I can so his life's struggles and very unusual journey will be recorded for him; so he won't just be some barely known, elderly, homeless drunk found in a gully.
I need a stiff drink, thanks again Lu!!!
-
Congratulations! You've found him. Well done Lucy2 8) 8) 8) 8)
Just in case, here's an Army file for another Timothy MURPHY who also happens to be 6'2".
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE20717922
Spades
-
Thanks Carol. :)
There were of course, other contributors too, :) (acknowledged earlier).
It was really great to have your constant input with updated information, answers to questions, further clues, etc. That style of support keeps us enormously interested and more determined to find answers. ;D
Certainly a sad tale, and your Timothy Patrick sure did possess (perhaps unexpected) resillience.
There's always something extra to be learned from this type of search (... in fact, from any search) but Timothy's Tale was especially poignant.
Happy for you and your family that he was eventually found and that his story can be written. :)
~ Lu
-
Thank you Spades :)
Yes ... 6 foot - 2 .... and that soldier ... also had eyes of blue ! :D
Certainly were a lot of very similar MURPHY's to sift through.
~ Lu