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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: scottishlad on Wednesday 26 April 23 19:03 BST (UK)
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I’ll try to keep this as concise as possible:
I have a Robert McKenzie (Tinsmith) born about 1823 married to a Mary Ann Devine born about 1828. Parents are George and Bridget Townsley.
I have a second Robert McKenzie (iron moulder) born about 1828 married to a Mary Ann Devine born about 1828. Parents are Donald and Christian Cadenhead.
I’ve looked at their death certificates and they are definitely two different people. My working theory is Donald is a brother of George, and therefore the two Roberts are cousins. Robert Cadenhead married Mary Ann Devine first, then for whatever reason divorced, and my Robert (Tinsmith) married her and had children.
To support this theory, Robert Cadenhead does have two wives listed on his death certificate. However, on Mary Ann Devine’s dearth certificate, her husband Robert is listed as working in an iron foundry. Which would seem to align better with Robert Cadenhead. Id think that after 9 children with Robert (Tinsmith) he’d be the one listed on the certificate.
To confuse matters even more, the witness of Robert Cadenhead’s death certificate is an Edward Anderson. My Robert (Tinsmith) had a daughter Alexandrina who married an Edward Anderson. However to Robert Cadenhead he would be a nephew in law, not a son in law. Unless I’ve “mixed” some of the children ie Alexandrina is really Robert Cadenhead’s daughter and not Robert (Tinsmith).
Anyway can anybody fact check me/lend some assistive brain power. Struggling to wrap my head around this one haha at the very least there’s too many coincidences to be a coincidence, and I doubt there just happened to be two Mary Ann Devines. Anyway thanks!
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Did they marry after 1854? Also, have you found them in censuses? Is there a record of the supposed divorce, or are you assuming that?
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More information would be helpful here.
Where and when did the marriages take place?
Do you have information regarding the bithplaces of any of these people? When did they die? Have you looked for all possible death entries?
Mary Ann Devine is likely to have been Roman Catholic, so divorce in the 19th century seems somewhat unlikely. It's certainly plausible that the two Roberts were cousins, so I suggest you need to focus on marriages (and be aware of the old Scots irregular marriages as well).
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Anyway can anybody fact check me/lend some assistive brain power. Struggling to wrap my head around this one haha at the very least there’s too many coincidences to be a coincidence, and I doubt there just happened to be two Mary Ann Devines. Anyway thanks!
Sorry if this is a stupid question. I might be missing something as I get confused easily.
Why do you think it would be so unlikely that there would be two Mary Ann Devines?
Having had a quick look on Ancestry, I can see quite a few people across Ireland and Scotland with that surname, so to me it doesn't seem impossible that two women born in the same year could have that forename and surname.
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Robert Cadenhead married Mary Ann Devine first, then for whatever reason divorced, and my Robert (Tinsmith) married her and had children.
To support this theory, Robert Cadenhead does have two wives listed on his death certificate.
Was the second wife Agnes PATERSON? Mary Ann died in 1863 and then he married Agnes in 1868.
Where is Robert described as a Tinsmith?
Are these the marriages that are worrying you?
MCKENZIE, ROBERT
MARY ANN/DEVINE FR7874 (FR7874)
28/05/1848
644 / 1
430 / 395
Glasgow
MCKENZIE, ROBERT
MARY ANN/DEVINE FR8066 (FR8066)
31/12/1846
168 / A
310 / 168
Aberdeen
Debra :)
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Have you looked at the originals of both marriage records? What do they say?
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I have a Robert McKenzie (Tinsmith) born about 1823 married to a Mary Ann Devine born about 1828. Parents are George and Bridget Townsley.
This man's wife in 1871 was named Jessie. They are living with his mother in Cadder, Lanarkshire. Were they travellers?
Debra :)
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Combining the information from Scotland's People and the IGI produces two lists of children to Robert Mackenzie and Mary Devine
In Aberdeen
Daniel 1847
William 1848
Helen 1850
Christine 1854
Alexandrina 1855
Robert 1858
David 1861
The pre-1855 ones are Roman Catholic baptisms
and in Glasgow
Margaret 1856
Mary 1859
Isaac 1863
The 1871 census has a record of a family at an encampment in Cadder, consisting of Bridget Townsley, widow, 74, born Ireland, with sons Robert, 42 and Isaac, 34, both travelling tinsmiths; daughters-in-law Mary, 31 and Jessie, 37; and grandchildren John, 14; Alexander, 12; Mary, 10, Agnes, 8; Robert, 0; Mary, 12; and Isaac, 8, all surnamed McKenzie. Birthplaces all over Scotland including Glasgow.
In the same census, in Aberdeen, are Robert McKenzie, 42, iron moulder; wife Agnes, 36; daughter Alexandrina, 15 and son David, 9; all born Aberdeen. Mary Ann Devine or Mckenzie, aged 36, died in Aberdeen in 1863, mother's maiden surname Cameron. The 1861 census records that she was born in Peterhead.
So there were indeed two different Robert M(a)ckenzies married to two different Mary Ann Devines.
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So, from what everyone has posted above.
... My Robert (Tinsmith) had a daughter Alexandrina who married an Edward Anderson...
This point to the marriage added by Debra:
MCKENZIE, ROBERT
MARY ANN/DEVINE FR8066 (FR8066)
31/12/1846
168 / A
310 / 168
Aberdeen
And the children that Forfarian has listed to them, together with the 1871 census details:
In Aberdeen
Daniel 1847
William 1848
Helen 1850
Christine 1854
Alexandrina 1855
Robert 1858
David 1861
The pre-1855 ones are Roman Catholic baptisms
1871....in Aberdeen, are Robert McKenzie, 42, iron moulder; wife Agnes, 36; daughter Alexandrina, 15 and son David, 9; all born Aberdeen. Mary Ann Devine or Mckenzie, aged 36, died in Aberdeen in 1863, mother's maiden surname Cameron. The 1861 census records that she was born in Peterhead.
Is Alexandrina your direct line?
Monica
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Thank you all so much for your responses! I guess I thought Mary Ann Devine was just too specific of a name to be different. It's not like it was Mary Ann and a Mary who both married Roberts, and same last name. Looking at the 1846 and 1848 marriage certificates however they are definitely different people. No way the same Mary Ann married 2 years apart and had kids with two separate men at the same time...etc. I guess still doesn't exclude the possibility of relation, but then again there are many many McKenzie's in Scotland haha and yes the family were traveling tinsmiths so they were constantly on the move.
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Mary Ann and Devine were not uncommon names so not surprising there will be couples with the same name, especially with the name of Robert McKenzie for husband :-\
I am confused though. Is your family line the Aberdeen line or the Glasgow family? See you mention you have a gg grandfather called Isaac McKenzie which together with the references to tinsmiths, seems to point to the Glasgow family which Forfarian also touched on above. From here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=872402.9
Added: Delete that last comment! See that Isaac McKenzie was son of an Alexander McKenzie and Euphemia Mills. Alexander was then son of an Isaac etc..... So a completely different family to those two being discussed above?
Monica
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Mary Ann and Devine were not uncommon names so not surprising there will be couples with the same name, especially with the name of Robert McKenzie for husband :-\
I am confused though. Is your family line the Aberdeen line or the Glasgow family? See you mention you have a gg grandfather called Isaac McKenzie which together with the references to tinsmiths, seems to point to the Glasgow family which Forfarian also touched on above. From here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=872402.9
Monica
I am the Glasgow family. That Isaac is my 4x great grandfather. Robert is his brother. I've already pretty much settled my direct line, so I've been branching out into the siblings and trying to record all of the nieces/nephews.
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I guess my new question then would be my Robert married Mary Ann Devine in 1848, but then he’s apparently married to a Jessie in 1871 per the Census. I can’t find the death certificate for his Mary Ann. My Robert is a Tinsmith, whereas Aberdeen Robert is listed as an Iron worker on his death cert.
The Mary Ann Devine who died in 1863, her husband I s listed as an “Iron Founder’s Metal Dresser(?)”. So it would appear that is NOT the Mary Ann my Robert was married to.
Oh well more searching to do! Haha
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Might be worth looking at the death for a Mary Ann McKenzie, age 36, 1869 at Greenock. Mother's ms Carle. [Statutory Deaths 564/ 1/ 33]
Regards, Dod.
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I think you are over-complicating things.
There are two entirely separate couples who just happen to have the same names.
One Robert McKenzie, born in Aberdeen, married in Aberdeen in 1846 a Mary Ann Devine, who was born in Peterhead. They had at least seven children, including Alexandrina. Mary Ann died in Aberdeen in 1863, and her widowed husband later married Agnes Paterson. He was described as cast iron dresser in the 1861 census, iron founder’s metal dresser on his wife's death certificate, and iron moulder in the 1871 census.
The other Robert McKenzie was a travelling tinsmith. Depending on which census you believe, he was born either in Perth or in Cromarty. He married another Mary Ann Devine in Glasgow in 1848. According to the 1851 census she was born in Edinburgh. In 1871 this Robert was in an encampment in the parish of Cadder with his mother Bridget Townsley, brother Isaac, also a travelling tinsmith, two of Bridget's daughters-in-law, and assorted children.
There is an inconsistency in the names of Bridget's daughters-in-law, who are Mary and Jessie. Some of the children in the census match those of Isaac McKenzie and Harriet Tennant, who were married in Glasgow in 1855. But there is nothing to say that either of them is the wife of either Robert or Isaac, so they could be the wives of other sons of Bridget Townsley.
Robert McKenzie, mother's maiden name Townsley, died in Glasgow in 1887. Have you seen that death certificate? What dies it tell you?
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I think you are over-complicating things.
There are two entirely separate couples who just happen to have the same names.
One Robert McKenzie, born in Aberdeen, married in Aberdeen in 1846 a Mary Ann Devine, who was born in Peterhead. They had at least seven children, including Alexandrina. Mary Ann died in Aberdeen in 1863, and her widowed husband later married Agnes Paterson. He was described as cast iron dresser in the 1861 census, iron founder’s metal dresser on his wife's death certificate, and iron moulder in the 1871 census.
The other Robert McKenzie was a travelling tinsmith. Depending on which census you believe, he was born either in Perth or in Cromarty. He married another Mary Ann Devine in Glasgow in 1848. According to the 1851 census she was born in Edinburgh. In 1871 this Robert was in an encampment in the parish of Cadder with his mother Bridget Townsley, brother Isaac, also a travelling tinsmith, two of Bridget's daughters-in-law, and assorted children.
There is an inconsistency in the names of Bridget's daughters-in-law, who are Mary and Jessie. Some of the children in the census match those of Isaac McKenzie and Harriet Tennant, who were married in Glasgow in 1855. But there is nothing to say that either of them is the wife of either Robert or Isaac, so they could be the wives of other sons of Bridget Townsley.
Robert McKenzie, mother's maiden name Townsley, died in Glasgow in 1887. Have you seen that death certificate? What dies it tell you?
Yes I have his death certificate it lists him as the widower of Mary Ann Devine. So she was already dead by 1887. That’s why I assumed the 1863 death certificate was her. I guess I never thought Jessie could just be another daughter in law by herself. There was a sibling James married to a Jessie McLaren. I’ll have to follow that thread more. But yes I over complicated with the Roberts, but now still trying to figure out what happened to “my” Mary Ann. Thank you so much for your response!
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now still trying to figure out what happened to “my” Mary Ann.
I couldn't resist a look at the 1869 death certificate. She was the wife of Robert McKenzie, tinsmith, who was unable to sign his name but made his mark. She died suddenly on 16 February 1869 in the house of Robert McKenzie, tinsmith, at 10 Taylor's Close, Greenock, and the Register of Corrected Entries lists the cause as heart disease. Parents Peter Devine and Mary Carle.
Just as an aside, that seems to suggest that they only travelled in the better weather but had a fixed house to return to in the winter months.
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now still trying to figure out what happened to “my” Mary Ann.
I couldn't resist a look at the 1869 death certificate. She was the wife of Robert McKenzie, tinsmith, who was unable to sign his name but made his mark. She died suddenly on 16 February 1869 in the house of Robert McKenzie, tinsmith, at 10 Taylor's Close, Greenock, and the Register of Corrected Entries lists the cause as heart disease. Parents Peter Devine and Mary Carle.
Just as an aside, that seems to suggest that they only travelled in the better weather but had a fixed house to return to in the winter months.
Incredible thank you! I will follow up. Yes exactly they would settle somewhere during the winters and then head out again when it was warmer. They were largely itinerate though.