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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Mitche11 on Monday 24 April 23 10:47 BST (UK)
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Please see attached - I am struggling with the name of Stephen Taylor's father and also the name of the second witness. Help would be very much appreciated.
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The father's name looks like George Stradwick or Strudwick.
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Second witness is Mary Harvey.
I’m still working on the father’s name. ???
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Yes, I think I agree with George Stradwick.
Compare the end of the name with the same letters in bricklayer.
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Do you have details of Stephen Taylor pre his marriage.
John
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Agree - George Stradwick
Sandra
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Do you have details of Stephen Taylor pre his marriage.
John
Hi John,
I'm sorry no I don't, I'm trying to find out information before his marriage to Martha and the only thing I have is his father list on his marriage banns.
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Must confess I have found very little pre his marriage. The below can go on a back burner.
Know facts from marriage cert. Aged 22 so born c1844/5 and father George Stradwick.
Known facts from 1871/81 census place of birth Woking which comes under the Guildford registration district.
Possible births
TAYLOR, STEPHEN - No mothers maiden name.
GRO Reference: 1844 S Quarter in THE GUILDFORD UNION Volume 04 Page 177
TAYLOR, STEPHEN mmn HARDING
GRO Reference: 1845 M Quarter in THE GUILDFORD UNION Volume 04 Page 193 (May have died same mq 1845 aged 0 in Guildford.)
Possible marriage of his mother.
Marriages Dec 1848
Beech Harriett Brentford 3 25
Bolton Ann Julia Brentford 3 25
CHALLIS Henry Brentford 3 25
Christmas Benjamin Brentford 3 25
FULLER Daniel Brentford 3 25
JOHNSON Nancy Brentford 3 25
Strudwick George Brentford 3 25
TAYLOR Jane Brentford 3 25
A possible for Stephen in 1851 census ref 1593 349 10, Union Workhouse, Chertsey, aged 6 born Woking.
John
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Must confess I have found very little pre his marriage. The below can go on a back burner.
Know facts from marriage cert. Aged 22 so born c1844/5 and father George Stradwick.
Known facts from 1871/81 census place of birth Woking which comes under the Guildford registration district.
Possible births
TAYLOR, STEPHEN - No mothers maiden name.
GRO Reference: 1844 S Quarter in THE GUILDFORD UNION Volume 04 Page 177
TAYLOR, STEPHEN mmn HARDING
GRO Reference: 1845 M Quarter in THE GUILDFORD UNION Volume 04 Page 193 (May have died same mq 1845 aged 0 in Guildford.)
Possible marriage of his mother.
Marriages Dec 1848
Beech Harriett Brentford 3 25
Bolton Ann Julia Brentford 3 25
CHALLIS Henry Brentford 3 25
Christmas Benjamin Brentford 3 25
FULLER Daniel Brentford 3 25
JOHNSON Nancy Brentford 3 25
Strudwick George Brentford 3 25
TAYLOR Jane Brentford 3 25
A possible for Stephen in 1851 census ref 1593 349 10, Union Workhouse, Chertsey, aged 6 born Woking.
John
Hi John,
The only other information I have is on a post I posted awhile again, the marriage of Stephen’s daughter, here is the link: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=858977.9
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Another vote for George Stradwick and Mary Harvey.
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St Peter Woking
Baptism for Stephen TAYLOR
14 July 1844
Mother Sarah
Address Woking Common
No father named.
1851 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGKZ-7PM
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It is interesting that Stephen knew his father’s name. I don’t think that was very common for illegitimate children.
Here is a possible father, in the approximate place and free at the right time.
This George STRUDWICK is a carpenter / builder through various records – and may have had something to do with his son Stephen going into a similar trade. Just speculation.
George STRUDWICK bapt 26 Dec 1819 Holy Trinity Guildford
to parents William (occupation carpenter) and Jane STRUDWICK
1841 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQKZ-73B
His father is a builder, and George is an apprentice
In 1851 Guildford
George Strudwick 31 Carpenter, born Guildford
Mary Ann Strudwick, wife, 25, born Alford
Jane Strudwick, 5 months
His wife was Mary Ann HEATHER.
George and Mary Ann married 29 Nov 1849 in St Mary Islington.
The Strudwick family stay in Guildford through the census records.
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Stephen’s mother:
In 1841 Sarah TAYLOR age 19 is living in Woking with parents and brother
William Taylor age 50 Ag labourer
Hannah Taylor age 50
Henry Taylor age 24.
Sarah TAYLOR married 25 Dec 1848 Chertsey to John LONGHURST
In 1851 census Sarah Longhurst age 29 is in Chertsey workhouse and her name is recorded directly above her son Stephen Taylor, age 6.
ADDED:
Sarah (Taylor) LONGHURST had a daughter - Emma Longhurst, born 1851 Chertsey.
Sarah LONGHURST burial 23 April 1870 Woking. (age 48)
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Sarah TAYLOR baptised 22 Jul 1821 St Peter Woking
Parents: William (labourer) and Hannah
Abode: Woking Common
Parents William TAYLOR and Hannah PANTER / PUNTER – married 25 Nov 1807 Wonersh Surey
Hannah (PUNTER) TAYLOR
baptism 25 May 1783 Wonersh Surrey to parents William and Sarah PUNTER
1851 census in Woking, with unmarried sons James Taylor 41 and Thomas Taylor 37
Her husband is in the Union (workhouse)
Hannah TAYLOR burial 11 Jan 1859 Woking
William TAYLOR
possible baptism Woking St Peter. Born 12 Jan 1788 to parents William and Ann
William Taylor is still / again in the workhouse in 1861.
He died at Guildford Union - burial 14 Dec 1861 (age 72)
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Good sleuthing Neale. Just to add Sarah, John and Emma easily found in 1861 census. 1871 census below
Piece 807
Folio 11
Page number 15
John Longhurst 45 Head
Emma Longhurst 19 Daughter
The marriage of Sarah to John Longhurst and her death images can be found on Anc*.
John
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Thank you everyone for your help but I think I have the wrong Stephen Taylor.
I have found a marriage between a Stephen Taylor and a Martha Morley m 1873 Lewisham, this fits in with a Frances Taylor/Morley born about 1882 I have been researching the only problem is I cannot find any other information so Stephen Taylor and Martha Morley might not be Frances parents. Back to the drawing board.
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I have found a marriage between a Stephen Taylor and a Martha Morley m 1873 Lewisham,
I cannot find this marriage. Can you please give full details.
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I have found a marriage between a Stephen Taylor and a Martha Morley m 1873 Lewisham,
I cannot find this marriage. Can you please give full details.
Sorry I got the date wrong, they married 1875 in Lewisham, BMD Ref: 1d 1283
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... and the details?
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... and the details?
Details? That’s all I have.
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Is this the Stephen you are trying to find.
1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27Q-2P3D
John
added, all the children from this union have mmn Periera
This is Frances.
TAYLOR, FANNY ROSANA PEREIRA
GRO Reference: 1876 D Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 548
Parents marriage dq 1867 Lambeth
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Thank you everyone for your help but I think I have the wrong Stephen Taylor.
I have found a marriage between a Stephen Taylor and a Martha Morley m 1873 Lewisham, this fits in with a Frances Taylor/Morley born about 1882 I have been researching the only problem is I cannot find any other information so Stephen Taylor and Martha Morley might not be Frances parents. Back to the drawing board.
We are all working in the dark here!
What do you know about Frances, how have you got back to her and where does she fit in with your ancestry.
John
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This is Frances.
TAYLOR, FANNY ROSANA PEREIRA
GRO Reference: 1876 D Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 548
Parents marriage dq 1867 Lambeth
YEs I agree this would appear to be your Frances TAYLOR, and her parents are as posted previously in this thread.
I have been looking at Frances' family today for you, But have not yet had enough time to complete my investigations. The water is somewhat "muddied" due to children changing their names, but I suspect there may well be an explanation. I will continue to work through it all, when time allows.
In the meantime can you tell me:
1. Do you have a marriage record for Frances TAYLOR to Frank Edwin MARTYN?
If so, please post ALL the details from that certificate.
2. Do you have Frances and her 4 children in the 1921 census?.
Please post ALL the details.
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This is Frances.
TAYLOR, FANNY ROSANA PEREIRA
GRO Reference: 1876 D Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 548
Parents marriage dq 1867 Lambeth
YEs I agree this would appear to be your Frances TAYLOR, and her parents are as posted previously in this thread.
I have been looking at Frances' family today for you, But have not yet had enough time to complete my investigations. The water is somewhat "muddied" due to children changing their names, but I suspect there may well be an explanation. I will continue to work through it all, when time allows.
In the meantime can you tell me:
1. Do you have a marriage record for Frances TAYLOR to Frank Edwin MARTYN?
If so, please post ALL the details from that certificate.
2. Do you have Frances and her 4 children in the 1921 census?.
Please post ALL the details.
I thought Martha Piereira was Frances mother but after more research I don't believe she is.
See below for all the information I have:
Children of Frances Taylor and Frank Martin Below:
TAYLOR, FRANCES EVELYN (mmn TAYLOR) GRO Reference: 1899 S Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 797 - AKA Frances MORLEY or Evelyn MARTYN or Evelyn MORLEY. I believe Frances Evelyn is not Frank's daughter.
TAYLOR, FRANK EDWIN (mmn MARTIN) GRO Reference: 1901 J Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 407 - AKA Frank Edwin MARTYN or Frank Edwin MORLEY or Frank JOHNSTON MORLEY.
TAYLOR, JEAN MARTIN GRO Reference: 1907 J Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 596 - AKA Jean Martyn or Jean MORLEY.
MARTYN, RONALD DOUGLAS TAYLOR GRO Reference: 1912 J Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 669 - AKA Ronald Douglas MORLEY.
Frances, Frank and Jean were all baptised on 21 Apr 1907 at St Mark, Battersea Rise, Wandsworth, England and were given the surname MARTIN.
Ronald Douglas Martin was baptised on 28 Jul 1912 at St Paul, Brixton, Lambeth, England.
1901 Census living in Lambeth, London, England:
Frances Martyn - 1879 Briston, London, England - Head
Evelyn Martyn - 1900 Barham, London, England - daughter
1911 Census in Lambeth, Surrey with Frank Martyn, details below:
Frank Martyn - abt 1872 Burgh, Edinburgh, Scotland - Reed Maker - Head
Frances Martyn - abt 1881 London, United Kingdom - Wife. Their is a marriage date of 1897 but I have been unable to find the marriage.
Evelyn Martyn - abt 1900 London, United Kingdom - daughter
Frank Martyn - abt 1902 London, United Kingdom - son
Jean Martyn - abt 1908 London, United Kingdom - daughter
On 7 Feb 1914 Frances and her children Evelyn, Frank, Jean and Ronald are admitted to Renfrew Road Workhouse, Lambeth, Surrey and are discharged on 9 Feb 1914, their surnames are now MORLEY, there is no sign of Frank Edwin Martyn.
On 13 Oct 1923 Frances Taylor otherwise Morley marries Percy Painter (I have the marriage certificate) Frances is 37 years old and a spinster - father Stephen Taylor (deceased) Occupation - Builder.
I have found a marriage for a Stephen Taylor and Martha Morley:
BMD Ref: Sep 1875
TAYLOR Stephen Lewisham 1d 1283
MORLEY Martha Lewisham 1d 1283
This Stephen Taylor and Martha Morley fits better than Stephen Taylor and Martha Pereira!
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I believe that's the route that Neale and I were both going down. If we take just Frank Edwin Taylor mmn Martin jq 1901.
His school admission record states father Frank, and he has a dob 8th April 1901, as per his baptism record. Does your research show him as Frank MORLEY dob 8th April 1901 in 1939. He would appear to have married a Lily M A Higgs in 1927.
John
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I believe that's the route that Neale and I were both going down. If we take just Frank Edwin Taylor mmn Martin jq 1901.
His school admission record states father Frank, and he has a dob 8th April 1901, as per his baptism record. Does your research show him as Frank MORLEY dob 8th April 1901 in 1939. He would appear to have married a Lily M A Higgs in 1927.
John
That is correct but it's Frances Taylor born abt 1881, it's her father Stephen Taylor that I am trying to find, everything from 1901 forward I have for Frances Taylor.
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Sorry to ask another question. Did Frances die as Frances Morley in 1951 Croydon. If so this death registration gives a birth year of 1875. Stephen married Martha Morley sq 1875. Wondering if she was this birth ref
MORLEY, FRANCES -
GRO Reference: 1875 M Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 152
John
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Sorry to ask another question. Did Frances die as Frances Morley in 1951 Croydon. If so this death registration gives a birth year of 1875. Stephen married Martha Morley sq 1875. Wondering if she was this birth ref
MORLEY, FRANCES -
GRO Reference: 1875 M Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 152
John
She died Frances Painter in 1929, she was buried 3 Sept 1929 at Morden, Surrey, her birth on burial record is 1889.
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I have found a marriage for a Stephen Taylor and Martha Morley:
BMD Ref: Sep 1875
TAYLOR Stephen Lewisham 1d 1283
MORLEY Martha Lewisham 1d 1283
This Stephen Taylor and Martha Morley fits better than Stephen Taylor and Martha Pereira!
How can they be a better fit? That makes no sense.
Are you not looking for parents of Frances born in Brixton about 1876?
Since you say you have everything about Frances, please post the information for her and family from the 1921 census (previously requested #22).
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I have found a marriage for a Stephen Taylor and Martha Morley:
BMD Ref: Sep 1875
TAYLOR Stephen Lewisham 1d 1283
MORLEY Martha Lewisham 1d 1283
This Stephen Taylor and Martha Morley fits better than Stephen Taylor and Martha Pereira!
How can they be a better fit? That makes no sense.
Are you not looking for parents of Frances born in Brixton about 1876?
Since you say you have everything about Frances, please post the information for her and family from the 1921 census (previously requested #22).
I don’t have the 1921 Census. The reason Stephen Taylor and Frances Morley seem a better fit as I put it is because everything I have for Frances dates her birth between 1879 - 1889, her surname changed to Morley in 1914 when she and her children were in the workhouse, I believe she left Frank Martin and used her mother’s maiden name, so that’s the reason I believe Stephen Taylor and Martha Morley are her parents and not Steven Taylor and Martha Piereira, as their daughter Frances was born 1876, her father’s occupation was a painter but the Stephen Taylor I am searching for was a builder.
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I have found a marriage between a Stephen Taylor and a Martha Morley m 1873 Lewisham,
I cannot find this marriage. Can you please give full details.
Sorry I got the date wrong, they married 1875 in Lewisham, BMD Ref: 1d 1283
Sep 1875
ASSITER Phoebe Ann Lewisham 1d 1283  
Mills William Lewisham 1d 1283  
Morley Martha Lewisham 1d 1283  
TAYLOR Stephen Lewisham 1d 1283
It looks as if
Stephen Taylor married 1875 Phoebe Ann Assiter
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45360192/stephen-taylor
Stephen Taylor Bn 7 Sep 1845 England Died 16 Aug 1910 (aged 64) La Salle County, Texas, USA
TAYLOR, HERBERT STEPHEN mmn ASSITER
GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in LEWISHAM UNION Volume 01D Page 1022
So that would mean Martha Morley married William Mills and I think this is them on 1891 census with son Ernest
William Mills 43 Head
Martha 39 Wife
Ernest W 8 Son
Piece 524 Folio 54
MILLS, ERNEST WILLIAM mmn MORLEY
GRO Reference: 1882 S Quarter in LEWISHAM Volume 01D Page 1119
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I think you have made the wrong assumption that the name MORLEY comes from Frances’ parents.
There is no marriage record for Frances TAYLOR to Frank MARTIN.
In the 1901 census Frances MARTIN claims to be married, but is living alone with baby Evelyn.
There is no sign of Frank MARTIN. In fact the only time we ever see him is in 1911 census. He does not appear on earlier census that I can find. No sign of him in 1901. There is no record of a birth for a Frank / Francis MARTIN / MARTYN in Edinburgh between 1868 and 1875.
The children’s birth registrations and their baptism tell an interesting story. Looking at the original documents would add further to your investigations. They may give you addresses and other detail which may be helpful in clarifying various issues.
Birth:
MARTIN, EVELYN (Frances Evelyn) - no mother recorded
GRO Reference: 1900 J Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 01C Page 385 (born Aug 1899)
She was born in August 1899, but not registered until June Quarter 1900. Why so very late? I think because the father Frank MARTIN had disappeared - deserted poor Frances. Evelyn is registered with the right surname, but there clearly is confusion about the mother. If it was Frances who registered the birth, she had some reason for not putting her maiden name there. Maybe someone else registered the birth – who?
Births:
TAYLOR, FRANK EDWIN Mother - MARTIN
GRO Reference: 1901 J Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 407 (born April 1901)
TAYLOR, JEAN Mother - MARTIN
GRO Reference: 1907 J Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 596 (born Feb 1907)
I suspect neither of these children were fathered by Frank MARTIN. He was absent in 1901 and probably for some years after. The children are registered with the surname TAYLOR and Frances has recorded her name as MARTIN, so it would not appear that the children were illegitimate.
Then in April 1907, all three children were baptised together. Why not earlier baptisms? Because Frank was not around ? So when he re-appeared in 1907, baptisms went ahead?
We have the family all together in 1911. The next child born in 1912 is clearly registered correctly - the son of Frank MARTIN and Frances (nee TAYLOR)
Birth:
MARTYN, RONALD DOUGLAS Mother - TAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1912 J Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 669
Then in 1913 it seems that Frank MARTIN again deserted Frances and the children, so they end up relying on the workhouse early in 1914.
It is MOST unlikely that a woman with 4 children to care for, would leave her husband - the only means of survival, as suggested by “Mitche11” in post #29.
Why the name change to MORLEY? The 2 most likely reasons, in my opinion are:
1. Frank MARTYN was using an alias, and it was discovered he was really Frank MORLEY. Perhaps he was already married with children elsewhere?
2. There was a Mr. MORLEY around, who was the father to at least 2 of Frances’ children. The children started using their father’s surname Morley, and Frances decided to take that surname to cover up illegitimacy, and probably because she had given up with MARTYN by then.
It would be in your interest to find Frances and her children in the 1921 census to see how she records herself.
I would also be interested to see the record of Frances’ marriage in 1923 to Percy Painter, to know exactly how things are recorded. Her son Frank MORLEY is the witness “F J Morley”. It is quite possible that her father Stephen TAYLOR worked at some stage as a builder after we see him in the 1881 census, or at least that’s what France’s wanted to believe.
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Well well, Ladyhawk's post blows that theory out the water.
Another scenario.
Forget the marriage of Stephen Tayor too Martha Periera in 1867, they can be found in 1881 census.
Another marriage:
Stephen Taylor too Frances Mary Nicholson 25.12.1872. Image on Anc*. His occ Carpet Planner.
TAYLOR, FRANCES MARY NICHOLSON
GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in WHITECHAPEL Volume 01C Page 358
Baptism image on Anc*
1881 census ref 440 24 7 occ carpet planner No Frances c1876 with family**
Piece 440
Folio 23
Page number 5
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Robert R. Nicholson
35 Head
Jane Nicholson
34 Wife
Sarah J. Nicholson
14 Daughter
Richard Nicholson
11 Son
Francis M. Taylor 5 Niece
By 1891 (ref 614 66 24) they have 6 children all with mmn Nicholson occ Carpet planner Frances with family
1901 ref 278 94 29 5 children occ Carpet planner Frances with family
1907 Frances Mary Taylor marries John Wilson. Her father Stephen Taylor occ Carpet Planner
John
Added Frances & John Wilson on 1911 census and 1939 war register
Possible death
Name: Frances M Wilson
Death Age: 86
Birth Date: abt 1876
Registration Date: Apr 1962
[May 1962]
[Jun 1962]
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration District: London City
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5d
Page: 122
Probate for Frances Mary Wilson 1962, mentions son Robert Benjamin Wilson
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Mitche11, Along with other's we really wish you to solve this puzzle/mystery with and for you. May I ask how you have got back to a Frances Taylor with father Stephen. You have probably gone backwards from known info re more current rellies. Just where does Frances feature.
John
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Frank Johnston Morley was born Frank Edwin Taylor on 8 April 1901 in Lambeth. Mother is Frances Taylor born about 1882 in Brixton, father is Frank Edwin Martin born about 1872 in Edinburgh.
I believe the parents of Frank Edwin Martin born 1872 are Francis Martin and Elizabeth Johnston but I am still trying to confirm that I have his correct parents.
Frank Edwin Martin and Frances Taylor did not marry but in 1923 Frances Taylor otherwise Morley married Percy Painter in Lambeth, they were both living at 3 Gresham Road, Brixton at time of marriage. Frances Taylor's father is Stephen Taylor, occupation: builder, he was deceased at time of marriage. Percy Painter's father is Albert Painter, occupation: Stoker (borough council). Witnesses to the marriage are F J Morley and May Painter. I am still researching Frances Taylor's family as the only information I have is her father is Stephen Taylor, occupation: builder.
Frances Taylor and Frank Edwin Martin had 4 children:
Frances Evelyn Taylor born 14 Aug 1899 • Wandsworth, Surrey, England
Frank Edwin Taylor born 8 Apr 1901 • Lambeth, London, England
Jean Taylor born 15 Feb 1907 • Wandsworth, London, England
Ronald Douglas Martyn born Apr 1912 • Lambeth, London, England
Frank Edwin Taylor aka Frank Johnston Morley born 8 Apr 1901 married Lily Mary Annie Higgs in 1927 at St George Hanover Square London. Frank's occupation: engineer, residence: 23 Little Chester Street, his father is also given as Frank Johnston Morley but I believe this to be Frank Edwin Martin, occupation: Captain in the army, deceased at time of marriage. Witnesses to the marriage: Frances Painter (I believe Frances Painter is Frank's mother) and Percy Painter.
Frank Edwin Taylor aka Frank Johnston Morley and Lily Mary Annie Higgs had 4 children:
Joyce Edith Morley born Oct 1928 • Lambeth, London, England
Jean Morley born Jul 1931 • Lambeth, London, England
Douglas Frank Johnston Morley born 19 Jun 1934 • Surrey North Eastern, Surrey
Derrek Douglas Johnston Morley born 28 Jan 1937 • Surrey North Eastern, Surrey
They also had an adopted son: John Morley born about 1938 • Surrey, England. I have no other information on John Morley.
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Well well, Ladyhawk's post blows that theory out the water.
Another scenario.
Forget the marriage of Stephen Tayor too Martha Periera in 1867, they can be found in 1881 census.
Another marriage:
Stephen Taylor too Frances Mary Nicholson 25.12.1872. Image on Anc*. His occ Carpet Planner.
TAYLOR, FRANCES MARY NICHOLSON
GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in WHITECHAPEL Volume 01C Page 358
Baptism image on Anc*
1881 census ref 440 24 7 occ carpet planner No Frances c1876 with family**
Piece 440
Folio 23
Page number 5
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Robert R. Nicholson
35 Head
Jane Nicholson
34 Wife
Sarah J. Nicholson
14 Daughter
Richard Nicholson
11 Son
Francis M. Taylor 5 Niece
By 1891 (ref 614 66 24) they have 6 children all with mmn Nicholson occ Carpet planner Frances with family
1901 ref 278 94 29 5 children occ Carpet planner Frances with family
1907 Frances Mary Taylor marries John Wilson. Her father Stephen Taylor occ Carpet Planner
John
Added Frances & John Wilson on 1911 census and 1939 war register
Possible death
Name: Frances M Wilson
Death Age: 86
Birth Date: abt 1876
Registration Date: Apr 1962
[May 1962]
[Jun 1962]
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration District: London City
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5d
Page: 122
Probate for Frances Mary Wilson 1962, mentions son Robert Benjamin Wilson
All the information I have that I know to be correct indicate that Frances was born between 1879 - 1889.
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I believe the parents of Frank Edwin Martin born 1872 are Francis Martin and Elizabeth Johnston but I am still trying to confirm that I have his correct parents.
According to the 1911 census, you are looking for a Frank MARTIN born in Edinburgh about 1872. Occupation - reed maker for musical instruments.
You have found:
Frank MARTIN born 12 March1869 in Aberdeen to Francis Martin and Elizabeth Johnston
Parents married 1867 Aberdeen. Father was a joiner / carpenter
Frank married his wife Jane Elizabeth McLEOD in 1897 South Shields
In 1901 census (North Shields) Frank is an Innkeeper living with wife and child
In 1911 (South Shields) census Frank is a Rigger and General Shipworker living with wife and family
I don’t understand how he could possibly be your Frank, but good luck trying to make it all fit.
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Mitche11,
You say,
"All the information I have that I know to be correct indicate that Frances was born between 1879 - 1889."
and
Frank Edwin Taylor aka Frank Johnston Morley and Lily Mary Annie Higgs had 4 children:
Joyce Edith Morley born Oct 1928 • Lambeth, London, England
Jean Morley born Jul 1931 • Lambeth, London, England
Douglas Frank Johnston Morley born 19 Jun 1934 • Surrey North Eastern, Surrey
Derrek Douglas Johnston Morley born 28 Jan 1937 • Surrey North Eastern, Surrey
They also had an adopted son: John Morley born about 1938 • Surrey, England. I have no other information on John Morley.
Are you a descendant of one of Frank and Lily's children ?
John
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Mitche11,
You say,
"All the information I have that I know to be correct indicate that Frances was born between 1879 - 1889."
and
Frank Edwin Taylor aka Frank Johnston Morley and Lily Mary Annie Higgs had 4 children:
Joyce Edith Morley born Oct 1928 • Lambeth, London, England
Jean Morley born Jul 1931 • Lambeth, London, England
Douglas Frank Johnston Morley born 19 Jun 1934 • Surrey North Eastern, Surrey
Derrek Douglas Johnston Morley born 28 Jan 1937 • Surrey North Eastern, Surrey
They also had an adopted son: John Morley born about 1938 • Surrey, England. I have no other information on John Morley.
Are you a descendant of one of Frank and Lily's children ?
John
Jean Morley born 1931 is my husbands grandmother.
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I am so confused with Frances Taylor/Morley and beginning to wonder if it was her daughter Francis Evelyn Taylor/Martin/Morley who married Percy Painter and as she did not know who her father she put Stephen Taylor as her father but he is really her uncle, making Stephen Taylor, occupation builder Frances Taylor/Morley's brother! Dates of birth for Frances Taylor/Morley range from 1879 to 1882. This is just a theory.
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Quote:
but in 1923 Frances Taylor otherwise Morley married Percy Painter in Lambeth, they were both living at 3 Gresham Road, Brixton at time of marriage. Frances Taylor's father is Stephen Taylor, occupation: builder, he was deceased at time of marriage. Percy Painter's father is Albert Painter, occupation: Stoker (borough council).
1911 census has a Percy Painter aged 9 Born Ilminster living with parents Albert and Margaret. Albert's occupation is Stoker.
Even this is confusing. Albert Painter appears to have married Sarah Ann Leaves in 1898 in Chard but appears in 1901 as Albert Fairley on Anc*(image shows Painter), with Sarah his wife and a son Percy aged 5 months.
PAINTER, PERCY MEAD
GRO Reference: 1900 D Quarter in CHARD Volume 05C Page 343
If this is your Percy his age would indicate that he probably married Frances Evelyn who would have been around the same age as opposed to someone (Frances) who was 20 years older!
John
added, as per 1901 census
PAINTER, FLORENCE BEATRICE MAY mmn LEAVES
GRO Reference: 1899 J Quarter in CHARD Volume 05C Page 357
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Dates of birth for Frances Taylor/Morley range from 1879 to 1882.
By taking Frances’ birth year on 2 census records you have assumed she is giving her correct age. Quite often as women aged, their birth year on records changed to make them look younger. I have come across countless examples of this, with women saying they were sometimes 10 years younger than they actually were. Especially common if their husband was younger than them.
Once again, I suggest you look at the birth records of her children, and the 1921 census.
I know I have asked before, but I will try again. .....
Can you please post here the 1923 marriage record of Frances to Percy Painter.
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Dates of birth for Frances Taylor/Morley range from 1879 to 1882.
By taking Frances’ birth year on 2 census records you have assumed she is giving her correct age. Quite often as women aged, their birth year on records changed to make them look younger. I have come across countless examples of this, with women saying they were sometimes 10 years younger than they actually were. Especially common if their husband was younger than them.
Once again, I suggest you look at the birth records of her children, and the 1921 census.
I know I have asked before, but I will try again. .....
Can you please post here the 1923 marriage record of Frances to Percy Painter.
I have given you all the information on the 1923 marriage certificate I purchased!
Here is the record:
Percy Painter m Frances Taylor Or Morley Dec qtr 1923 Lambeth RD
Volume Number 1d Page number 651
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Quote:
but in 1923 Frances Taylor otherwise Morley married Percy Painter in Lambeth, they were both living at 3 Gresham Road, Brixton at time of marriage. Frances Taylor's father is Stephen Taylor, occupation: builder, he was deceased at time of marriage. Percy Painter's father is Albert Painter, occupation: Stoker (borough council).
1911 census has a Percy Painter aged 9 Born Ilminster living with parents Albert and Margaret. Albert's occupation is Stoker.
Even this is confusing. Albert Painter appears to have married Sarah Ann Leaves in 1898 in Chard but appears in 1901 as Albert Fairley on Anc*(image shows Painter), with Sarah his wife and a son Percy aged 5 months.
PAINTER, PERCY MEAD
GRO Reference: 1900 D Quarter in CHARD Volume 05C Page 343
If this is your Percy his age would indicate that he probably married Frances Evelyn who would have been around the same age as opposed to someone (Frances) who was 20 years older!
John
added, as per 1901 census
PAINTER, FLORENCE BEATRICE MAY mmn LEAVES
GRO Reference: 1899 J Quarter in CHARD Volume 05C Page 357
Albert Painter married Sarah Ann Leaves in 1898 at Ashill, Somerset then in 1909 he married Margaret Wylde Baxter.
I cannot find a birth record for Percy Painter born 1900 other than the one you have given above but he was baptised 9 November 1900 in Ilminster, Somerset, England, parents Albert Painter and Sarah Ann. Also I cannot find a birth record for Percy's sister Bessie born abt. 1903 in Hammersmith but Percy's other sisters I have found birth records for and all have mother's maiden name Leaves. Percy seems to be the only child that was baptised.
PAINTER, FLORENCE BEATRICE MAY LEAVES
GRO Reference: 1899 J Quarter in CHARD Volume 05C Page 357
PAINTER, LILY LEAVES
GRO Reference: 1905 J Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 181
PAINTER, DAISY SARAH LEAVES
GRO Reference: 1907 J Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 230
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Percy in 1921
Percy
Painter
1900
Ilminster, Somerset, England
—
Army
Army
John
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Percy in 1921
Percy
Painter
1900
Ilminster, Somerset, England
—
Army
Army
John
Funnily enough I just found that record :)
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I believe the parents of Frank Edwin Martin born 1872 are Francis Martin and Elizabeth Johnston but I am still trying to confirm that I have his correct parents.
According to the 1911 census, you are looking for a Frank MARTIN born in Edinburgh about 1872. Occupation - reed maker for musical instruments.
You have found:
Frank MARTIN born 12 March1869 in Aberdeen to Francis Martin and Elizabeth Johnston
Parents married 1867 Aberdeen. Father was a joiner / carpenter
Frank married his wife Jane Elizabeth McLEOD in 1897 South Shields
In 1901 census (North Shields) Frank is an Innkeeper living with wife and child
In 1911 (South Shields) census Frank is a Rigger and General Shipworker living with wife and family
I don’t understand how he could possibly be your Frank, but good luck trying to make it all fit.
This doesn't fit, it must be another Frank born in Edinburgh, Scotland.
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Is this the Stephen you are trying to find.
1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27Q-2P3D
John
added, all the children from this union have mmn Periera
This is Frances.
TAYLOR, FANNY ROSANA PEREIRA
GRO Reference: 1876 D Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 548
Parents marriage dq 1867 Lambeth
I have found Frances Rosa Taylor on the 1939 Census living in Islington, London, she is single.
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I wonder if this is the Frances Taylor I am looking for?
Name Frances Taylor
Admission Age 19
Record Type Admission
Birth Date 1881
Admission Date 1900
Admission Place Camden, St Pancras, London, England
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Percy in 1921
Percy
Painter
1900
Ilminster, Somerset, England
—
Army
Army
John
I wonder if this might be Percy, sorry don't have access to look for further details as it's on Fold3
Percy Painter
Record Type: Card
Service Number: 6191617
Corps, Regiment or Unit: Middlesex Regiment
Title: WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
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I wonder if this is the Frances Taylor I am looking for?
Name Frances Taylor
Admission Age 19
Record Type Admission
Birth Date 1881
Admission Date 1900
Admission Place Camden, St Pancras, London, England
The address on the above record for Frances is 69 Bayham Street
1901 census 69 Bayham Street
George A TAYLOR 21, carman, his wife Frances age 19 bn Pancras and their daughter
Frances age 8 months
added
TAYLOR, FRANCES ANNIE mn EVERSFIELD
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 100
probable marriage entry for parents
Dec 1899 Pancras 1b 287
Cooke Francis Gerrard H
EVERSFIELD Frances Harriet
Matthews Constance Edith V
Taylor George Alfred
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I may have missed your answer on the thread as there's quite a few pages - have you found the family in 1921?
Evelyn & Frank are old enough to be on their own or married - do you know if they married before 1921?
Jean and Douglas I assume should be with their mother Frances bn 1881
For info. added the 1912 baptism of their son Douglas - can't make out their address 10 D? Street
First name transcribed Taylor original reads Douglas
Douglas Roland Martin Birth 13 Mar 1912
Baptism 28 Jul 1912 St Paul, Brixton, Lambeth,
Father Frank Martin, reed maker Mother Frances
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I may have missed your answer on the thread as there's quite a few pages - have you found the family in 1921?
Evelyn & Frank are old enough to be on their own or married - do you know if they married before 1921?
Jean and Douglas I assume should be with their mother Frances bn 1881
For info. added the 1912 baptism of their son Douglas - can't make out their address 10 D? Street
First name transcribed Taylor original reads Douglas
Douglas Roland Martin Birth 13 Mar 1912
Baptism 28 Jul 1912 St Paul, Brixton, Lambeth,
Father Frank Martin, reed maker Mother Frances
I have had a quick look but I cannot find any of them on the 1921 Census, I went on FindMyPast and typed in all their names but nothing really stood out to me so I didn't purchase any as I could end up spending a lot of money. :)
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Info only, 1929 electoral reg
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Death?
MORLEY, RONALD DOUGLAS aged 3
GRO Reference: 1915 S Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 495
John
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I have had a quick look but I cannot find any of them on the 1921 Census , I went on FindMyPast and typed in all their names but nothing really stood out to me so I didn't purchase any as I could end up spending a lot of money. :)
I am so confused with Frances Taylor/Morley and beginning to wonder if it was her daughter Francis Evelyn Taylor/Martin/Morley who married Percy Painter and as she did not know who her father she put Stephen Taylor as her father but he is really her uncle, making Stephen Taylor, occupation builder Frances Taylor/Morley's brother! Dates of birth for Frances Taylor/Morley range from 1879 to 1882.
This is just a theory.
Could this be Frances on Electoral Register in Lambeth?
Frances Morley
Electoral Date 1921
Street Address 15 St. Martin's Road
Ward or Division/Constituency Lambeth
There are also Evans, Nesdale & Woodward surnames at the same address, if you use advanced search with that address on 1921c I can only see surnames Evans, Mesdale & Woodward ???
As N(M)esdale is the more unusual surname I checked year 1920 Frances Morley is not listed although Frances Morley is listed at that address for years 1924/1925 but not year 1926
Could this be Percy & Frances (no middle name given for Frances ???)
Percy & Frances Painter
Electoral years 1924/1925
Street Address 114 Borough Road
Ward or Division/Constituency Southwark
There is this entry on Free index 1921 St George’s Hanover Square & St Margaret & St John
Frances Morley 1883 Brixton, London, there doesn’t appear to be any other persons with surname Morley/Martin with her
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Just tidying up Frank’s loose end
I think Frank Morley is this one in 1921 (as indexed)
Morley
Frank
1901
—
1921
1921 Census Of England & Wales
Feltham, Staines, Middlesex, England
He is an Inmate
Schedule type= prison
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Death?
MORLEY, RONALD DOUGLAS aged 3
GRO Reference: 1915 S Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 495
Burial at Wandsworth, 27 July 1915 (image)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-996J-3ZJ7
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I think Frank Morley is this one in 1921 (as indexed)
1921 Census Of England & Wales
Feltham, Staines, Middlesex, England
He is an Inmate
Schedule type= prison
Thread on him here
Topic: Frank Johnston Morley
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=858745.0
Is he in the Westminster & Pimlico News, 9 April 1920?
They set a trap for him.
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This has been quite a hard slog. Must confess to being bitterly disappointed that a lot of info was previously known, not all but quite a lot.
John
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I think Frank Morley is this one in 1921 (as indexed)
1921 Census Of England & Wales
Feltham, Staines, Middlesex, England
He is an Inmate
Schedule type= prison
Thread on him here
Topic: Frank Johnston Morley
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=858745.0
Is he in the Westminster & Pimlico News, 9 April 1920?
They set a trap for him.
This has been quite a hard slog. Must confess to being bitterly disappointed that a lot of info was previously known, not all but quite a lot.
John
Thanks jonw65 for the link it’s always helpful to see what information that has already been found on a family and then we can try not to duplicate our efforts.
There is this Evelyn on Free index 1921 but her pob does not match, I had a quick look at SP and I couldn’t see an Evelyn Franci(e)s Morley born c1899 listed :-\
Wandsworth Borough, London & Surrey
Evelyn Francis Morley 1899 Dundee, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
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That's a good find, Ladyhawk.
Evelyn seems to be a servant.
Playing around with the free index, she is with a Rehm family. Head is Herbert Rehm.
From the 1921 electoral register, the name of the house is Knowstone in Clarence Road, SW4.
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Mr. Martin / Martyn was from Scotland, wasn't he? Perhaps that's where it comes from?
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1901 Census living in Lambeth, London, England
Frances Martyn - 1879 Briston, London, England - Head
Evelyn Martyn - 1900 Barham, London, England - daughter
1911 Census in Lambeth, Surrey with Frank Martyn, details below:
Frank Martyn - abt 1872 Burgh, Edinburgh, Scotland - Reed Maker - Head
Frances Martyn - abt 1881 London, United Kingdom - Wife.
Their is a marriage date of 1897 but I have been unable to find the marriage.
Evelyn Martyn - abt 1900 London, United Kingdom - daughter
Frank Martyn - abt 1902 London, United Kingdom - son
Jean Martyn - abt 1908 London, United Kingdom - daughter
Mr. Martin / Martyn was from Scotland, wasn't he? Perhaps that's where it comes from?
According to the 1911 census posted above he was born Burgh Edinburgh
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Hi
Yes, you are right.
And he was not at home in 1901!
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I wonder if this might be Evelyn
1939 register living Finchley M.B., Middlesex her middle initial transcribed ‘A’ original looks to be an 'F', her dob is the same as on the 1907 baptism for Evelyn Frances Martin dob 14 Aug 1899
Dec 1921 Willesden
Raymond F Lane
Evelyn F Morley
EDIT to add
Year 1939 Electoral Register Finchley West
Evelyn Frances Lane
Address 105 Dollis Park
Added - Mitche11 - obtaining the m/c would be the only way of knowing if she is the correct person, it looks as if she travelled to US in 1947 and died in the US in 1973 (same dob 14/8/1899)
I won't add all the details on here just in case she's not related to your family - she had at least four children.
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Death?
MORLEY, RONALD DOUGLAS aged 3
GRO Reference: 1915 S Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 495
Burial at Wandsworth, 27 July 1915 (image)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-996J-3ZJ7
On the image the address 45 Chestnut Grove
Electoral Register year 1915 address 45 Chestnut Grove, Wandsworth
Margaret Kerslake
Earlier years 1900/1911/13 Edwin George Kerslake and they are at that address on 1901 & 1911 census
Edwin George Kerslake married Margaret Ann Stevens 1865 Parish St Lukes (image on Anc*y)
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Quote
1939 register living Finchley M.B., Middlesex her middle initial transcribed ‘A’ original looks to be an 'F', her dob is the same as on the 1907 baptism for Evelyn Frances Martin dob 14 Aug 1899
Dec 1921 Willesden
Raymond F Lane
Evelyn F Morley
EDIT to add
Year 1939 Electoral Register Finchley West
Evelyn Frances Lane
Address 105 Dollis Park
Birth
MORLEY, EVELYN FANNY MARGARET mmn STACEY
GRO Reference: 1900 D Quarter in ST GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE
Appears in 1901 (as Evelyn)/1911 (as Margaret) census with parents George & Evelyn
John
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Reply # 65 from Ladyhawk suggests Evelyn married a Lane and moved to the USA.
Her obituary looks promising?
Hopefully this link works; no need to be subscribed to read it (if I clipped right!)
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-cincinnati-enquirer-evelyn-lane-obit/123848343/
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Reply # 65 from Ladyhawk suggests Evelyn married a Lane and moved to the USA.
Her obituary looks promising?
Hopefully this link works; no need to be subscribed to read it (if I clipped right!)
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-cincinnati-enquirer-evelyn-lane-obit/123848343/
It works :)
So Evelyn's sister Jean married a ? Charles and there is mention of brother Frank Morley added - as there’s no mention of brother Douglas Roland Morley the 1915 death entry found by Johnhood (reply 59) and the burial found by jonw65 (reply 57) could well be him.
This looks to be Jean's death she died 1975 Isle of Wight, although Jean Martyn's baptism gives
Birth Date 15 Feb 1907 not 22nd
Jean Charles born 22 Feb 1907
Volume 20 Page 2020
Her marriage entry
Mar 1958 I.Wight 6b 1859
MORLEY Jean
CHARLES G E (See FreeBMD for full name)
Added
George Ernest Charles died 29 June 1967 Isle of Wight
Probate 3 November to widow Jean
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1939 perhaps
Jean
Morley,Carter
1907
344 Clapham Road, Clapham North, Lambeth
Lambeth
London
England
Hovering shows a Frank Carter in household
Cannot see a Morley Carter marriage though. So did she marry G. Charles as a single woman.
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Death
Deaths Mar 1975
CHARLES JEAN 22FE1907 I O W 20 2020
John
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Death
Deaths Mar 1975
CHARLES JEAN 22FE1907 I O W 20 2020
John
Beat you to it John had already posted reply 69 :)
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1939 perhaps
Jean
Morley,Carter
1907
344 Clapham Road, Clapham North, Lambeth
Lambeth
London
England
Hovering shows a Frank Carter in household
Cannot see a Morley Carter marriage though. So did she marry G. Charles as a single woman.
Her dob 17 Feb 1907 - I can't see a marriage entry either only way to tell if she was single is obtaining the m/c
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1939 perhaps
Jean Morley,Carter 1907
344 Clapham Road, Clapham North, Lambeth
London Electoral Register
Jean Carter
Electoral Date 1936, 1937,1938,1939
Street Address 344 Clapham Road
Ward or Division/Constituency Kennington
plus Frederick Carter and others with different surnames at that address
added
Jean Carter
Electoral Date 1930
Street Address 304 Clapham Road
Ward or Division/Constituency Brixton and Kennington
plus Frank Carter and others with different surnames
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This has been quite a hard slog. Must confess to being bitterly disappointed that a lot of info was previously known, not all but quite a lot.
John
I did post a link on this thread for the other thread on Frank Martin/Morley, you must have missed it.
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This has been quite a hard slog. Must confess to being bitterly disappointed that a lot of info was previously known, not all but quite a lot.
John
I did post a link on this thread for the other thread on Frank Martin/Morley, you must have missed it.
Hi Mitche11
I think the thread John was referring to is the one posted by Jonw65 reply (58) for Frank Johnston Morley
The link you posted was at reply (8)
Quote
"The only other information I have is on a post I posted awhile again, the marriage of Stephen’s daughter, here is the link:"
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=858977.9
unless I've missed another link also as there's quite a lot of pages to this thread :)
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Quote
1939 register living Finchley M.B., Middlesex her middle initial transcribed ‘A’ original looks to be an 'F', her dob is the same as on the 1907 baptism for Evelyn Frances Martin dob 14 Aug 1899
Dec 1921 Willesden
Raymond F Lane
Evelyn F Morley
EDIT to add
Year 1939 Electoral Register Finchley West
Evelyn Frances Lane
Address 105 Dollis Park
Birth
MORLEY, EVELYN FANNY MARGARET mmn STACEY
GRO Reference: 1900 D Quarter in ST GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE
Appears in 1901 (as Evelyn)/1911 (as Margaret) census with parents George & Evelyn
John
That would mean that Evelyn Frances mother married Percy Painter and not Evelyn, I wasn't sure which one married Percy Painter but now it seems it was Evelyn's mother.
What a great find on Evelyn, this family has been a real headache but with everyones help I feel we are starting to get somewhere, thank you to you all :)
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This has been quite a hard slog. Must confess to being bitterly disappointed that a lot of info was previously known, not all but quite a lot.
John
I did post a link on this thread for the other thread on Frank Martin/Morley, you must have missed it.
Hi Mitche11
I think the thread John was referring to is the one posted by Jonw65 reply (58) for Frank Johnston Morley
The link you posted was at reply (8)
Quote
"The only other information I have is on a post I posted awhile again, the marriage of Stephen’s daughter, here is the link:"
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=858977.9
unless I've missed another link also as there's quite a lot of pages to this thread :)
I thought the link I posted was for the full thread of Frances Morley & Percy Painter, I didn't realise it was just a reply on that thread I posted, sorry everyone.
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Beat you to it John had already posted reply 69
As you always do Ladyhawk ;)
John
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That would mean that Evelyn Frances mother married Percy Painter and not Evelyn, I wasn't sure which one married Percy Painter but now it seems it was Evelyn's mother.
What a great find on Evelyn, this family has been a real headache but with everyones help I feel we are starting to get somewhere, thank you to you all :)
You are welcome - if you have access to Anc*y you can find info. on Evelyn and her family in US - here's a few details
Housewife Evelyn F Lane age 47 and 3 of her children travelled to New York USA
Departure Date 8 Jun 1947 Ship Name Batory
Her husband Raymond and daughter travelled together on 16 May 1947 Arrival Port: New York, New York, USA Ship Name: Batory
Evelyn F Lane Age 73
Residence Place Fairfield, Butler, Ohio, USA
Death 16 May 1973 Cincinnati, Hamilton, USA
Inquest Hospital Bethesda Oak Hospital
Ohio, U.S., Death Records, 1908-1932, 1938-2018
death of her husband
Raymond Francis Lane Age 68
Residence Place Cincinnati
Death Place Fram-ingham, Mass.
Burial Place Southboro, Mass.
Obituary Date 24 Jul 1967
Obituary Place Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Newspaper Title The Cincinnati Enquirer
Spouse Evelyn Frances Lane
Jun 1930 Lane Anthony H (Homer) Morley Uckfield
his burial https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/32378543/anthony-h-lane
Jun 1932 Lane Michael R (Robin) Motley Hatfield
his burial https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/72934273/michael-robin-lane
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1950 US census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHK-SQHW-T9B2?view=index&personArk=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3A6F3N-JF4T&action=view&groupId=TH-7771-115406-1589-49
john
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Percy Painter who married Frances Taylor/Morley was received in prison 29 Oct 1923 and again on 27 July 1928, in 1923 he was a coil maker and in 1928 he was a railway porter.
Name Percy Painter
Trial Age 23
Birth Date 1900
Trial Date 8 Nov 1923
Trial Place Newington, London, England
Occupation Coil Maker
Charge False pretenses
Sentence 2 years
Name Percy Painter
Trial Age 27
Birth Date 1901
Trial Date 7 Aug 1928
Trial Place Newington, London, England
Occupation. Railway Porter
Charge Breaking and entering; Stealing; Receiving
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Info only re Raymond Francis Lane
1921 census
Raymond Francis
Lane
1899
Massachusetts, United States
St Michael, St Mary Magdalene
Oxford
Oxfordshire
John
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Sorry to ask another question. Did Frances die as Frances Morley in 1951 Croydon. If so this death registration gives a birth year of 1875. Stephen married Martha Morley sq 1875. Wondering if she was this birth ref
MORLEY, FRANCES -
GRO Reference: 1875 M Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 152
John
She died Frances Painter in 1929, she was buried 3 Sept 1929 at Morden, Surrey, her birth on burial record is 1889.
As a matter of interest what are the details recorded on the death certificate, address, informant etc.
John
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Sorry to ask another question. Did Frances die as Frances Morley in 1951 Croydon. If so this death registration gives a birth year of 1875. Stephen married Martha Morley sq 1875. Wondering if she was this birth ref
MORLEY, FRANCES -
GRO Reference: 1875 M Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 152
John
She died Frances Painter in 1929, she was buried 3 Sept 1929 at Morden, Surrey, her birth on burial record is 1889.
As a matter of interest what are the details recorded on the death certificate, address, informant etc.
John
I don't have the death certificate.
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Image of the Battersea New Cemetery in Morden burial
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9YN-63DZ-Z
3 Sep 1929
Frances Painter
1 West Park Road Epsom
Age 40 years
That must be the address of the West Park asylum.
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Silence from Mitche11
Stumbled across this.
Admission of Percy Painter to poor law institutions
Percy Painter, born 17.10.1900
Porter
Homeless, says wife Francis (sic) Painter in hospital
Percy back later in the month, his father Albert named?
And in October, back again, wife mentioned.
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Silence from Mitche11
Stumbled across this.
Admission of Percy Painter to poor law institutions
Percy Painter, born 17.10.1900
Porter
Homeless, says wife Francis (sic) Painter in hospital
Percy back later in the month, his father Albert named?
And in October, back again, wife mentioned.
This is a great find, where did you find this information? Thank you John your input has been amazing :)
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Hi
I wouldn't say my input has been amazing, certainly some brilliant stuff from the others :)
Don't know if these are also hidden away on ancestry
Percy at the Christ Church Institution in 1928 (two images)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1L-7955-1
On to the workhouse (or whatever they called it then) in Newington
On the same page, two images
Two entries for Percy
One for Percy and Frances
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1Y-CSZB-S
There should be an exam / case paper for Percy (and Frances) in Southwark, possibly in 1926, noted on there as case paper 61983.
That seems to be exam (or exams) number 24298, but it's not in its place in the bundle (which is online) It may have been moved because of those further encounters with the system.
Jon
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OK, looking at the next Newington religious creed register
In Feb 1929
Percy and Frances Painter
Frances Painter (again)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1Y-CSD2-2
Then Percy comes back in April
and Frances in May
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1Y-CSDK-L
On the second page it says that Frances was discharged to West Park, 25.5.29 :(
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OK, looking at the next Newington religious creed register
In Feb 1929
Percy and Frances Painter
Frances Painter (again)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1Y-CSD2-2
Then Percy comes back in April
and Frances in May
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1Y-CSDK-L
On the second page it says that Frances was discharged to West Park, 25.5.29 :(
Thank you so much John, everyones help is very much appreciated.
Frances Taylor/Morley has proven to be very difficult in tracing especially as she has used so many different years for her birth, this women is a real mystery!
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In one of Jonwen's links for Frances in the poorhouse it said Frances was a cook.
This should be her in the 1921 then:
84 Ashley Garden S.W.1
Somewhere in the Parish of St George's Hanover Square, St Margaret and St. John
Frances Morley, cook, 38 yrs 7 months, widow, born Brixton, London.
Household members
Thomas Henry Webb, age 32, married, born Yorkshire, a contractor, with his 26 yo wife Lillah, born Scotland, and daughter Lillah Victoria, age 4 1/2, born Yorkshire.
Also a nurse, Constance Morris, with no details, but a note saying " left before age and place of birth could be obtained.
I am enclosing the clip of Frances, as the entire census appears to have been rewritten in a darker pen, and I can't tell if under the dark "widow" for Frances, does it say "single"?
Also including her signature in the hopes it can be compared to the signature on the marriage to Percy Painter.
She was supposed to fill out the column for the ages of children of widowed people, but left hers blank.
Sadly, none of her children are with her, but the 1921 is a bit odd in that respect. Servants that are at the address on a daily basis could be included, providing they aren't counted elsewhere, such as Frances was, but it does not mean she actually lived there. Will post the column headers if anyone is confused by that!
Edited slightly for clarity.
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Great stuff, bbart.
Just on that school record (one of two) for Frank Martyn that is already known about
Broadwater School, Infants
Frank Martyn, born 8.4.01
Admitted 15 May 1906
Parent Frank
Address 69 Woodbury St
Left 14.9.06 (Removal)
There seems to be one for his sister on the previous page
Eva Martyn, born 7.8.99 (date a week different?)
Admitted 30 April 1906
Parent George (a mistake, or was a man called George her father?)
Address 69 Woodbury St
Left 14.9.06 (Removal)
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In one of Jonwen's links for Frances in the poorhouse it said Frances was a cook.
This should be her in the 1921 then:
84 Ashley Garden S.W.1
Somewhere in the Parish of St George's Hanover Square, St Margaret and St. John
Frances Morley, cook, 38 yrs 7 months, widow, born Brixton, London.
Household members
Thomas Henry Webb, age 32, married, born Yorkshire, a contractor, with his 26 yo wife Lillah, born Scotland, and daughter Lillah Victoria, age 4 1/2, born Yorkshire.
Also a nurse, Constance Morris, with no details, but a note saying " left before age and place of birth could be obtained.
I am enclosing the clip of Frances, as the entire census appears to have been rewritten in a darker pen, and I can't tell if under the dark "widow" for Frances, does it say "single"?
Also including her signature in the hopes it can be compared to the signature on the marriage to Percy Painter.
She was supposed to fill out the column for the ages of children of widowed people, but left hers blank.
Sadly, none of her children are with her, but the 1921 is a bit odd in that respect. Servants that are at the address on a daily basis could be included, providing they aren't counted elsewhere, such as Frances was, but it does not mean she actually lived there. Will post the column headers if anyone is confused by that!
Edited slightly for clarity.
On the marriage certificate it looks like all the writing is the same even the signatures of Frances, Percy and the witnesses.
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Thanks for posting the image; i was really hoping it had the original handwriting.
However, can you post the exact date of the marriage?
I am still trying to figure out the witness F. J. Morley.
Frank Johnston Morley should be a shoe-in for it, except, depending on the actual marriage date, would have been in prison. ???
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Thanks for posting the image; i was really hoping it had the original handwriting.
However, can you post the exact date of the marriage?
I am still trying to figure out the witness F. J. Morley.
Frank Johnston Morley should be a shoe-in for it, except, depending on the actual marriage date, would have been in prison. ???
The date of marriage was 13 October 1923
F J Morley was convicted on 6 Nov 1923
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Great stuff, bbart.
Just on that school record (one of two) for Frank Martyn that is already known about
Broadwater School, Infants
Frank Martyn, born 8.4.01
Admitted 15 May 1906
Parent Frank
Address 69 Woodbury St
Left 14.9.06 (Removal)
There seems to be one for his sister on the previous page
Eva Martyn, born 7.8.99 (date a week different?)
Admitted 30 April 1906
Parent George (a mistake, or was a man called George her father?)
Address 69 Woodbury St
Left 14.9.06 (Removal)
I have attached Admission on 15 June 1908 Frank Martin to Gideon Road School I cannot make out the address.
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The date of marriage was 13 October 1923
F J Morley was convicted on 6 Nov 1923
Thanks for the date. He had just gotten out of Wandsworth Prison in May 1922 from a prior 12 month sentence, hence why I was after the date. :)
As for your address clipping, I keep seeing "Sistern" but I highly doubt that is what it really is.
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Google says there is a Sisters Avenue in the Clapham area. Still hunting!
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Google says there is a Sisters Avenue in the Clapham area. Still hunting!
Yes and it’s isn’t far from Gideon Road
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Well I finally found case paper 61983. Exam 24298.
It was indeed from 1926 (out relief, address 39 Temple Street), and moved to a bundle in 1929.
As is often the case, it was rather disappointing. No new exam in 1928 or 1929 added.
Mainly is a list of addresses.
Percy Painter was a porter on the underground railway. I think it says he had been in the army 3½ years.
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Mitche11. Have I missed it? Have you got the Percy Painter & Frances marriage certificate?
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Married at the Register Office in Brixton, 13.10.1923
Seen by the Relieving Officer (the certificate, not the ceremony!)
Addresses include
13 Gresham Road Brixton (12 months)
married while here
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But not confirmation of Frances' father?
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But not confirmation of Frances' father?
Stephen Taylor deceased at time of marriage, occupation builder.
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Well I finally found case paper 61983. Exam 24298.
It was indeed from 1926 (out relief, address 39 Temple Street), and moved to a bundle in 1929.
As is often the case, it was rather disappointing. No new exam in 1928 or 1929 added.
Mainly is a list of addresses.
Percy Painter was a porter on the underground railway. I think it says he had been in the army 3½ years.
Hi John, do you have the link please?
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It's on ancestry though. So you need to be on there, and don't expect very much!
Starts here
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1557/images/31952_a013324-00729
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Actually I see that first image IS the new exam paper for 1928/9 ;D
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So in the free index to the 1921 census Percy could be
Percy Painter, born 1900, Ilminster, Somerset
Army
In Hammersmith in 1911
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So in the free index to the 1921 census Percy could be
Percy Painter, born 1900, Ilminster, Somerset
Army
In Hammersmith in 1911
Thank you for the link and yes I would say Percy Painter was in the army in 1921.
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So in the free index to the 1921 census Percy could be
Percy Painter, born 1900, Ilminster, Somerset
Army
In Hammersmith in 1911
Percy's father Albert must have had an affair with Elizabeth Mead, Percy has stated on his exam papers that his mother is Elizabeth also his birth record has mmn MEAD, all Albert's other children have mmn LEAVES. Let me know your thoughts on this!
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9 April 1898, Ashill
Albert Painter, 21, Bachelor, Carter, residence Ashill, father William Painter, Gardener
+
Sarah Ann Leaves, 22, Spinster, residence Ilminster, father Thomas Leaves, Deceased
wit George Painter, Florence Leaves
Birth
PAINTER, PERCY
Mother's Maiden Surname: MEAD
GRO Reference: 1900 D Quarter in CHARD Volume 05C Page 343
Baptism, 9 Nov 1900, Ilminster
Percy
Albert & Sarah Ann Painter
Townsend Ilminster
Father a Carter
Mrs. Painter?
LEAVES, SARAH ANN
Mother's Maiden Surname: CHICK
GRO Reference: 1876 D Quarter in CHARD Volume 05C Page 400
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9 April 1898, Ashill
Albert Painter, 21, Bachelor, Carter, residence Ashill, father William Painter, Gardener
+
Sarah Ann Leaves, 22, Spinster, residence Ilminster, father Thomas Leaves, Deceased
wit George Painter, Florence Leaves
Birth
PAINTER, PERCY
Mother's Maiden Surname: MEAD
GRO Reference: 1900 D Quarter in CHARD Volume 05C Page 343
Baptism, 9 Nov 1900, Ilminster
Percy
Albert & Sarah Ann Painter
Townsend Ilminster
Father a Carter
Mrs. Painter?
LEAVES, SARAH ANN
Mother's Maiden Surname: CHICK
GRO Reference: 1876 D Quarter in CHARD Volume 05C Page 400
Albert married Sarah Ann Leaves on 9 April 1898 in Ashill, Somerset then in 1909 he married Margaret Wylde Baxter. Percy mentions his mother as being Elizabeth in the exam papers and on his birth record his mmn is MEAD, I cannot find a birth record for Bessie Painter Percy’s sister born Hammersmith about 1904, she is on the 1911 census.
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Bessie Baxter, probably the illegitimate daughter of Margaret pre her marriage to Albert
BAXTER, BESSIE ELIZABETH STEEL -
GRO Reference: 1903 J Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 304
In 1921 census with Albert & Margaret
Bessie
Baxter
1903
Hammersmith, London, England
Hammersmith
Hammersmith
London, Middlesex
Marriages Dec 1924
Baxter Bessie E S Cooper Hammersmith 1a 648
2nd marriage
Marriages Dec 1933
Cooper Bessie E S Clark Hammersmith 1a 650
Clark/Baxter birth
Births Dec 1935
Clark (Female) Baxter Hammersmith 1a 244
Look for Bessie Clark dob 18/6/1903 in 1939.
****************
Births Jun 1882
Baxter Margaret Wylde Fulham 1a 205
***************
Name: Margaret Wylde Painter
Death Age: 87
Birth Date: 3 Mar 1882
Registration Date: Oct 1969
[Nov 1969]
[Dec 1969]
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Hammersmith
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 5b
Page: 2004
*******************
Name: Albert Painter
Death Age: 82
Birth Date: abt 1877
Registration Date: Oct 1959
[Nov 1959]
[Dec 1959]
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Hammersmith
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5c
Page: 765
John
added, look for Albert Painter dob 1/4/1877 in 1939 with family also
PAINTER, ALICE FLORENCE BAXTER
GRO Reference: 1914 S Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 351
Births Jun 1921
Painter Jack mmn Barter(Baxter) Hammersmith 1a 372
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Bessie Baxter, probably the illegitimate daughter of Margaret pre her marriage to Albert
BAXTER, BESSIE ELIZABETH STEEL -
GRO Reference: 1903 J Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 304
In 1921 census with Albert & Margaret
Bessie
Baxter
1903
Hammersmith, London, England
Hammersmith
Hammersmith
London, Middlesex
Marriages Dec 1924
Baxter Bessie E S Cooper Hammersmith 1a 648
2nd marriage
Marriages Dec 1933
Cooper Bessie E S Clark Hammersmith 1a 650
Clark/Baxter birth
Births Dec 1935
Clark (Female) Baxter Hammersmith 1a 244
Look for Bessie Clark dob 18/6/1903 in 1939.
****************
Births Jun 1882
Baxter Margaret Wylde Fulham 1a 205
***************
Name: Margaret Wylde Painter
Death Age: 87
Birth Date: 3 Mar 1882
Registration Date: Oct 1969
[Nov 1969]
[Dec 1969]
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Hammersmith
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 5b
Page: 2004
*******************
Name: Albert Painter
Death Age: 82
Birth Date: abt 1877
Registration Date: Oct 1959
[Nov 1959]
[Dec 1959]
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Hammersmith
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5c
Page: 765
John
added, look for Albert Painter dob 1/4/1877 in 1939 with family also
PAINTER, ALICE FLORENCE BAXTER
GRO Reference: 1914 S Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 351
Births Jun 1921
Painter Jack mmn Barter(Baxter) Hammersmith 1a 372
Thank you John.
I have a lot of information on Percy Painter but I am still no further forward with Frances Taylor/Martyn/Morley/Painter - father: Stephen Taylor, also I have very limited information on Frances first partner: Frank/Francis Martyn - these are my husbands direct ancestors and I was hoping the more information I had on Percy Painter it would give me a lead to Frances ::)
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I think the feeling here (I may be wrong of course!) is that your Frances is the daughter of Stephen and Martha (in your first post).
Frances may have reduced her age later on, she was certainly much younger than her husband Percy, and possibly a few years younger than the mysterious Frank Martyn.
Do you think this is Frank's death?
Sep 1935 Surrey Mid-eastern
Martyn, Frank
Age 64
That's another death in an Epsom mental hospital, Horton this time.
If you are able to at some time in the future, the birth certificates of the first two children, Frances Evelyn and Frank Edwin, might be useful. It does seem that Frank Martyn may not have been the father of Frances.