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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: annemareeinerko on Thursday 06 April 23 07:01 BST (UK)
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I am trying to trace my maternal grandfather's line which is traced back to Cork.
Mary Murphy died in Timor, Victoria in 1888 aged 68 years of age. Whilst in Australia, she married very young (aged 16) to James Walsh around 1836 in Bathurst, NSW. Her death certificate recorded some details, born in Cork, Ireland, and her parents' names were Jeremiah Murphy (unknown profession) and her mother's surname was O'Connor. Since her grandchildren did not know Jeremiah's profession, Mary's mother's first name, I wonder if she came to Australia on her own or if her mother died young.
I searched Irish baptism databases and found Mary Murphy born on the 5th of May 1820, her father's name was Jerh Murphy and her mother's name was Joha Connor. The civil parish was Kilmurry, Co. Cork, and no further information about townlands. These names are the only ones I could find with matching names for Mary's approximate birth year in the whole of Ireland.
Jerh and Joha had two other children, Julia born in 1813 and Cath Murphy born 1815. I cannot find any further information about the family after 1820.
Mary had quite a tragic life in the Victorian goldfields, probably quite standard in those days :'(. It would be great to flesh out her life a bit more and I am sorry I do not have more to go on ???.
I have checked https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/ quite a bit but I do not subscribe to any databases like Ancestry. Griffith's Valuation records show a few Jeremiah Murphys in the Kilmurry parish between 1848 and 1852.
If anyone has any suggestions about databases or can recommend further searches, that would be great.
Thanks!
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On the Death Certificate, what details are written for how long in the colony?
Sue
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Hi, Sue. Thanks for your reply.
Mary's death certificate states she resided 46 years in Victoria and 2 years in NSW, which means her family estimated that she arrived in Australia around 1840. However, the death certificate also states that she was married at the age of 16 in NSW, which would have been approximately 1836. Her husband's (James Walsh) death certificate states that they were married in Bathurst, NSW but I have found no record of them being married in NSW.
Her husband's death certificate states that they were married in 1841 in Bathurst, NSW. It also states that he lived in Victoria for 26 years and for 20 years in NSW. I suppose it must have been hard for family members to recall all the details back in those days.
???
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Perhaps this immigration is worth exploring.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FL2C-24L
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Hi, Neale
Thanks for the link and the information. I had tried going through the immigration shipping lists one by one, but the Bounty Index is waaaaay faster ;D. I was not familiar with this index on Family Search. There are probably a lot of other databases on Family Search I am not familiar with either. The link you gave me makes sense, because of the lack of information about her parents on her death certificate. How sad for her, I wonder what happened to her after her birth being an orphan? :'(
I always thought my family was Catholic :-\. It is possible she converted because her husband was Catholic. Or maybe had to convert when she lived in Ireland....?
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Can you please list all the information on the death certificate, 1888, Victoria.
What is the earliest evidence you have of Mary in Australia...eg...names as mother on a birth certificate?....name on mariage certificate?
Do you have a marriage certificate for Mary?
When did husband James WALSH die...before or after Mary?
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Hi, Wivenhoe
Can you please list all the information on the death certificate, 1888, Victoria.
I will give you the information I can read.
When and where died: 1st July 1888, Timor, County Talbot.
Name and profession: Mary Walsh
Sex and age: F aged 68 years
Cause of death: Found drowned. Verdict at inquest 2nd July 1888 (I have the inquest details)
Name, surname and profession of mother and father: Jeremiah Murphy unknown; unknown O'Connor
Where and when buried: 3rd July 1888, Dunnolly Cemetery
Where born, how long in the Australian colonies: Ireland, 2 years NSW, 46 years Victoria.
Where and when married: NSW 16 James Walsh
Children: James, Alice, Mary Ann, Jeremiah, Ambrose, Robert (dead), William, Thomas, Frances, Edward, Francis, John
What is the earliest evidence you have of Mary in Australia...eg...names as mother on a birth certificate?....name on marriage certificate?
The earliest I have is Robert's birth certificate from 1848 in Ovens River, Victoria. It is very hard to read. I have Mary's name on her oldest son (James) marriage certificate in 1867, stating he was born in Sydney and his parents were James Walsh farmer and Mary Murphy. I have Frances's birth certificate in 1867 stating that Mary was from Co. Cork.
I do not have any evidence of James or Alice being born in NSW or Victoria.
Do you have a marriage certificate for Mary?
No, according to Frances's birth certificate, James and Mary were married in Bathurst but I cannot find records in NSW Births, Deaths, and Marriages.
When did husband James WALSH die...before or after Mary?
His details are:
Died 8th May 1882, Timor West, Bet Bet Shire County Gladstone, Vic.
James Walsh farmer
76 years
Cause of death: cancer, exhaustion; date 5th May 1882
Parents: Robert Walsh storekeeper; Alice Walsh/Clark
Buried 10th May 1882, Dunnolly Cemetery, Vic
Born County Meath, Ireland; 20 years NSW; 26 years, Victoria.
Married Bathurst aged 35 to Mary Murphy
Children: Alice (deceased), James, Robert (deceased), Jeremiah (could say deceased also), Mary Ann (could say deceased), Ambrose (could say deceased), William, Patrick, Thomas, Frances, Edward, Francis.
Thanks for your help. It is night here and I am going to get some shut-eye :)
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I do not have any evidence of James or Alice being born in NSW or Victoria.
Baptism for James (civil registration did not start until 1853 in Victoria)
36901 / 1843
WALSH, James
Place of event: OVENS
Mother's name: Mary MURPHY
Father's Name: James WALSH
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history
I have Frances's birth certificate in 1867 stating that Mary was from Co. Cork.
What is stated as the previous issue on this certificate and what is Mary's age?
Debra :)
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Hi, Debra
Thanks for your reply and for finding James. He must have been born in Sydney and baptised in Victoria.
Robert Walsh's certificate from BDM Victoria in 1848 has hardly any information on it, just his parents' names: James and Mary Walsh. As you said, registration began in 1853. I suppose certificates after this date would have more information on them.
Sorry, Debra, I did not know what you meant when you asked "What is stated as the previous issue on this certificate?"
The information on Francis's 1867 birth certificate states:
19th February 1867, Bet Bet
Francis, Male
James Walsh farmer, 50 years, b. County Meath, Ireland
Mary Walsh formerly Murphy 43 years, b. County Cork, Ireland (I think the age says 43, but it is a bit blurry)
Married 1840 Bathurst
Children: Alice 24 years deceased, James 23 years, Robert 21, Ambrose 18 deceased, William 12 years, Patrick 10 years, Mary Ann 5 years deceased, Thomas 4 years, Jeremiah deceased (can't read the age), Frances 5 years, Edward 2 years, John 11 months deceased.
Good grief, so many dead children :'( And having one child called Frances and the other called Francis confused me a bit :P
I do not have all the birth/death certificates for the children because I have limited funds :'(
According to this certificate, James Walsh was born in ~1817 and Mary Murphy was born in ~1824 in Cork, Ireland. So many different dates!
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Thank you for the good information from the documents that you have.
It is useful to identify the author of the information on birth and death certificates. Who is the informant named on the birth certificates and death certificates that you have?
"Previous issue" is used on birth certificates, and records earlier births to the same couple. On the birth certificate 1867, you have listed this as "children".
You do not need a certificate for every BDM event in the lives of the people you are researching.
It is useful to target particular records, keeping in mind the event -
births........earliest evidence you have of the person.
marriage...people are giving information about themselves ie. self-reporting.
death....end of life record....information about the persons origins, and what happened since they were born. This is a story as recorded by the informant, and as known to that person.
during the 19th century in Australia this will vary from state to state, and change over time as governments wanted to record more information about people. But some did not record much at all eg South Australia and Tasmania.
Mary WALSH died in 1888 as a widow. The person who knew her longest would be her husband James, and he is not around to be the informant.
James WALSH died in 1882. The person who knew him longest would be his wife Mary. Mary might be named as informant, but if she is not, then you might assume that she is the source of information on his death record. You do not need to get his death certificate, but I am suggesting how you might consider which certificates to get.
The birth certificate, 1867, is useful to compare with the death certificate, 1888 to account for children.
Death certificate for Mary WALSH, 1888...it is interesting to see that it has family name ...O'CONNOR...for her mother, not no given name. You might think that knowledge of Mary's origins is passed on in conversation by Mary during her lifetime, and her mother's given name would be known?
Does that suggest that Mary has received knowledge of her mother, but no personal memory?.
Was Mary brought up by father Jeremiah and a stepmother? Just ideas to ponder.
Use PROV (Public Records of Australia) to find a probate records for Mary WALSH, died Timor West 1888.
https://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/wills-and-probates
Mary owned land when she died.
I am not seeing a probate file for James WALSH who died 1882? If James died with no estate, you might wonder how and when Mary acquired property.
Ambrose is a less common name and might repeat the name of a brother to his parents James WALSH ....Mary MURPHY.
Can you give the names of informants for the birth record, 1867, and the death record 1888.
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Sorry, Debra, I did not know what you meant when you asked "What is stated as the previous issue on this certificate?"
The column heading should say 'issue living and deceased'. It is always interesting when the registrar allows for deceased children to have an age. That is not how they should be recorded but ends up being more helpful.
Debra :)
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Hi, Wivenhoe
Thanks for your reply these are good points to ponder. Yes, I wonder how the grandchildren knew their grandfather's first name and not their grandmother's first name (Unknown O'Connor).
James Walsh's death certificate lists Patrick Walsh (son) as the informant. Mary's certificate is difficult to read but indicates the informant was a person present at her magisterial inquiry into her death by drowning. It looks like the name Carkhill...? On Francis's birth certificate, Mary is listed as the informant.
It seems she inherited land from her son Robert, who died at 26. His probate is listed here:
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/7F1ABB0A-F1DF-11E9-AE98-E36740BD46A4?image=6 (https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/7F1ABB0A-F1DF-11E9-AE98-E36740BD46A4?image=6)
Her inquest stated that she was living with his children when she died.
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Thanks, Debra :)
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"Robert Walsh's certificate from BDM Victoria in 1848 "
Can you give all the information on this document. It will be a baptism record.
Do you see names of godparents?
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Why did Robert WALSH, died 1873, leave his estate to his mother Mary?.
What do you know of James WALSH who died 1882. Is he not supporting his wife and children, as might be indicated by notices in newspapers and court appearances?
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If there is no marriage to see for Mary MURPHY and James WALSH in NSW, it is possible that Mary MURPHY is in an established, but not recorded, domestic arrangement with James WALSH, and, by the time of birth of Jeremiah, is living in Victoria.
Has Mary MURPHY taken on a married James WALSH and one or two children born....where?...when?...to a, so far, un named woman?.
Subsequent BDM records would record information such as to describe a family where children are born to a married James WALSH and Mary MURPHY eg place and years of marriage.
Until you know otherwise, and guided only by the information on BDM records, you might think that Alice WALSH is born to James WALSH because Alice is the name of his James's mother. But Mary MURPHY might not be mother to Alice?
Jeremiah is a less common name, so the birth of a Jeremiah to this couple might indicate when Mary MURPHY, father Jeremiah, is living with James WALSH.
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"I do not have any evidence of James or Alice being born in NSW or Victoria."
When the daughter Alice died in Victoria in 1866, both her parents were living and she was unmarried. One would therefore hope the information given about her for the registration would be correct.
Death
WALSH, Alice
Parents- James and Mary
Where born Bath.
Age 24
Reg 1866/7918
Sue
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As a deponent at the inquest into the drowning death of his mother, son Patrick said she was about 60 years old.
I wonder how he arrived at that?
Sue
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Prov Probate file for Robert WALSH, died 1873, Victoria,
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/156171BF-F1D0-11E9-AE98-FF01A8B5C441?image=8
has signature for Mary WALSH, sole beneficiary. Mary WALSH, born ~ 1820 Co. Cork Ireland, is literate, with a good signature, written with confidence by a controlled hand.
This is useful to know when considering any siblings for Mary MURPHY, and who might have emigrated to NSW/VIC. They should also be literate?
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James Walsh's death certificate lists Patrick Walsh (son) as the informant. Mary's certificate is difficult to read but indicates the informant was a person present at her magisterial inquiry into her death by drowning. It looks like the name Carkhill...? On Francis's birth certificate, Mary is listed as the informant.
Constable Thomas CORKILL was the officer called at the discovery of the body..
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/F227D40D-F1BD-11E9-AE98-AB69DEB72D9F?image=8
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Prov Probate file for Robert WALSH, died 1873, Victoria,
has signature for Mary WALSH, sole beneficiary. Mary WALSH, born ~ 1820 Co. Cork Ireland, is literate, with a good signature, written with confidence by a controlled hand.
That’s interesting, wivenhoe.
The immigration record I posted in reply #3 was for a woman who could read and write.
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Hi, everyone. Thanks for your input and I will try and address as much as possible ;D
Sue - good pick up about her age being 60, according to Patrick at the inquest. I picked up on that as well and cannot explain it ???. If Alice is born in Bathurst and both James and Mary were married in Bathurst and both the records are missing, maybe there's a problem with the Bathurst records with transcription. I might be able to look at the microfilms at the state library of NSW.
Wivenhoe - Robert's birth certificate was prior to registration in Victoria. It only has his name and James and Mary Walsh as parents. Nothing much to go on with the early ones. Good point regarding her literacy, Neale.
I have Alice's death certificate and it lists both James and Mary Walsh as her parents. Would she do this if Mary was a step-parent? I have her inquest file and Mary writes that Alice is her daughter at the inquest into her death:
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/A1A8A01B-F1B8-11E9-AE98-154F0CC9566F?image=1 (https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/A1A8A01B-F1B8-11E9-AE98-154F0CC9566F?image=1)
However, I will keep what you said in mind about her not being Alice's biological mother.
James Walsh Jr lists his parents as James (farmer) and Mary Murphy on his wedding certificate.
I do not know much about James Sr apart from him being born in Co. Meath but will try news articles in that region. I assumed they were not a wealthy family.
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You might find this news item interesting.
About John MARSHALL, responsible agent for the bringing to Australia of many immigrants, including the Mary Anne MURPHY suggested by Neale.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12872981
Sue
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Thanks Sue. I will try look up more information in the Bounty Index. That was a good discovery by Neale.
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Here is a link to the passenger list for the "Mary Anne" 1840.
https://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?Page=NRS5316/4_4787/Mary%20Anne_28%20Aug%201840/4_478700049.jpg&No=7
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Thanks, Neale
Ages ago, I found a baptism record for Mary Murphy born on 8th February 1820, in Enniskean, Cork, with no parents named. It was in the Parish records. I could not read any of it for the life of me it was so faded.
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"Robert Walsh's certificate from BDM Victoria in 1848 "
Can you give all the information on this document. It will be a baptism record.
If this is an image of a page from a baptism log can you identify what other baptisms are recorded.
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Wivenhoe, I have attached the record. I hope you can see it.
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Had you seen the inquest regarding poor little Ambrose WALSH?
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/68C68A6A-F1B4-11E9-AE98-C1B7A354F7ED?image=1
Sue
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Attachment at reply #27 I see -
Baptism at 17 April 1848 at....where?...what church? Where are the WALSHs in Apr 1848?
Robert James and Mary WALSH 9 Oct 1844 Ovens River
Franc*s *** James and Mary WALSH 12 Dec 1846 do
I think the earlier dates would be birth dates?.
Other baptisms also have a location recorded, which would be birthplace?
Franc*s would seem to have a second given name. Can others look please.
I think the 1846 birth might me Jerem*** (Jeremiah)
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It is Jeremiah.
If the children were recorded in birthdate order on their father's DC, it will be noted that Robert and Jeremiah were consecutive births, so the dates would work.
Sue
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Thanks, Sue
Wow, the inquest into the death of little Ambrose was sobering reading :'(
Each time I read any of the inquests involving this family, they try to do the right thing but are dirt poor. From what I could understand of the handwriting, Robert had a lot of regrets about his brother dying, it seemed like Ambrose was malnourished. Robert even took in that other youngster that cold night, the one he found next to a tree, whose father had turfed him out, who later disappeared. Poor Robert died of diabetes.
Here is the birth certificate for James Walsh, it lists the children and their ages, who is dead, and who is still alive.
Thus far, the earliest evidence I have for Mary Murphy in Australia is James Walsh born in 1843 in Ovens, Victoria.
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Thus far, the earliest evidence I have for Mary Murphy in Australia is James Walsh born in 1843 in Ovens, Victoria.
I think you can count Alice's death certificate as evidence that James and Mary were in Bathurst in 1841/1842, as it suggests Alice was born there.
Regarding a marriage for James and Mary in Bathurst - have you contacted the local historical society to ask if they have any church marriage records for that time? As it was before registration, a church record may exist.
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Thanks, Neale. Good idea. I will try that avenue.
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Poor Robert died of diabetes.
When I read the inquest into the death of Alice WALSH aged 24, I rather thought her symptoms suggested diabetes too, the terrible thirst and decline into unconsciousness.
As Neale mentions, I had posted her Victoria death indexing in my reply #16, but I should have highlighted the word Bath (abbreviation for Bathurst) so you would note it.
I would agree that it was after her birth that they moved to Ovens River area.
I do feel for the family at Bet Bet and that poor little Ambrose who seemed to have pneumonia out in the cold and almost alone on that night. Only 12.
Sue
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Sue, I had the same thought about Alice and diabetes.
Reading about Ambrose's death gives an interesting insight into how tough life was for many children at that time in our history - 12 yrs old & sent off to work (and live) like tough labouring men.
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Thanks, Sue and Neale, for picking up on Alice's possible diabetes, which had not occurred to me. Now reading this from you both, it makes sense because she died so suddenly.
It was just awful that Ambrose had to work at such a young age in the cold night air in regional Victoria. I am sure these stories were common.
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I searched Irish baptism databases and found Mary Murphy born on the 5th of May 1820, her father's name was Jerh Murphy and her mother's name was Joha Connor. The civil parish was Kilmurry, Co. Cork, and no further information about townlands. These names are the only ones I could find with matching names for Mary's approximate birth year in the whole of Ireland.
Jerh and Joha had two other children, Julia born in 1813 and Cath Murphy born 1815. I cannot find any further information about the family after 1820.
Some observations:
- If there is no information about townlands, then how do you know that the civil parish was Kilmurry?
- "Jerh" and "Joha" are obviously just abbreviations for Jeremiah and Johana and should not be regarded as their actual names. The original register entry has superscripts indicating the abbreviation.
- As regards being the only matching birth in Ireland, you have to remember that, unfortunately, probably less than 50% of Catholic baptismal records reach back far enough to matter, so to a large extent you are "looking under the lampposts".
- Have you tried DNA matching to increase confidence in identifying the location of origin?
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Marriage record: Could this be the record you are looking for? Seems like a good fit.
3826/1840 V18403826 162B
JAMES WALSH
to
MARY WALSH
LG
(Roman Catholic Bathurst; Kelso county; St Michael's)
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Unfortunately, the 1820 birth in Kilmurry is not unique in the timeframe of interest.
I rapidly found a baptism on 1 February 1817 in Inniscarra, Co. Cork, of a Mary Murphy to Jeremiah Murphy and Mary Connor.
There is also an earlier Mary in Kilmurry, in December 1817.
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I have checked https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/ quite a bit but I do not subscribe to any databases like Ancestry. Griffith's Valuation records show a few Jeremiah Murphys in the Kilmurry parish between 1848 and 1852.
That IrishGenealogy database only covers Catholic records for part - not all - of Co. Cork. Specifically, it covers the diocese of Cork and Ross, except for Cork City. More problimatically, it does NOT include the diocese of Cloyne, which covers more than half of county Cork, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Diocese_of_Cloyne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Diocese_of_Cloyne)
Part of Co. Cork is also in the diocese of Kerry - so Cork is covered by three Catholic dioceses.
If your funds are low, and you don't want to subscribe to a pay servive, then I would suggest checking if any local public library or university has a subscription to Ancestry's Library Edition.
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"oldest son (James) marriage certificate in 1867, stating he was born in Sydney"
This seems odd that the WALSH family would be in Sydney...ever...... having started in Bathurst and continued on to rural Victoria?
Did the WALSHs do any mining in Victoria?...or always farmers?
And if James WALSH is born in Sydney then you might expect to have him baptised there?
Can you list all the information on the marriage certificate, 1867, for James WALSH.
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"oldest son (James) marriage certificate in 1867, stating he was born in Sydney"
This seems odd that the WALSH family would be in Sydney...ever...... having started in Bathurst and continued on to rural Victoria?
Did the WALSHs do any mining in Victoria?...or always farmers?
And if James WALSH is born in Sydney then you might expect to have him baptised there?
Can you list all the information on the marriage certificate, 1867, for James WALSH.
I guess one possibility, if it is true James was born in Sydney, is that they came into Victoria via coastal passenger ship from Sydney. Perhaps (very ::) ) slightly less arduous than overland for a women expecting a baby. But James arrived in Sydney.
I feel the theory is not very likely, but ..... ???
Sue
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Hi, Neale
Thanks for looking up the NSW BDM register. I ordered a copy of 3826/1840 from NSW BDM and I was sent a transcript for James and Margaret Walsh, who married in Bathurst on 4th June 1840 at an unnamed Catholic Church. So the transcript did not match.
Wexflyer - The databases I use record parishes and not townlands in Ireland. I also found birth records for Cath Murphy in 1815 and Mary Murphy in 1817 to Jerimiah Murphy and Johanna Connor. I already understood that Jer'h and Joha were not their actual names, I have checked the parish records and they obviously abbreviated Jeremiah and Johanna.
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Hi, Sue and Wivenhoe
Yeah, funny that the family traveled to Bathurst of all places, and James Jr was born in Sydney! Why Bathurst - that was prior to the gold rush???
James Walsh jr got married to Mary Collins at St Alipius, Ballarat 4th of January 1867, bachelor and spinster, his birthplace was Sydney and her birthplace was Galway, Ireland. He was a miner and she was a servant. Both were aged 22. The residence is hard to read but looks like his residence was recorded as Cobble (???) and she lived in Ballarat. His father was James Walsh (farmer) and his mother was Mary Murphy. Her father was John Collins (farmer) and her mother was Mary Hackett.
Wexflyer - Thanks for the heads up regarding the records in Cork. Re: "Have you tried DNA matching to increase confidence in identifying the location of origin?" My Irish ancestry can be traced to Fermanagh, Cavan, Meath, Kilkenny, Cork, Clare, and Galway.
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Was he was confused!?
WALSH James
Birth
Mother Mary MURPHY
Father WALSH James
At OVENS
Year 1843
36901/1843
Sue
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Hi, Sue and Wivenhoe
Yeah, funny that the family traveled to Bathurst of all places, and James Jr was born in Sydney! Why Bathurst - that was prior to the gold rush???
James Walsh jr got married to Mary Collins at St Alipius, Ballarat 4th of January 1867, bachelor and spinster, his birthplace was Sydney and her birthplace was Galway, Ireland. He was a miner and she was a servant. Both were aged 22. The residence is hard to read but looks like his residence was recorded as Cobble (???) and she lived in Ballarat. His father was James Walsh (farmer) and his mother was Mary Murphy. Her father was John Collins (farmer) and her mother was Mary Hackett.
Wexflyer - Thanks for the heads up regarding the records in Cork. Re: "Have you tried DNA matching to increase confidence in identifying the location of origin?" My Irish ancestry can be traced to Fermanagh, Cavan, Meath, Kilkenny, Cork, Clare, and Galway.
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Was he was confused!?
WALSH James
Birth
Mother Mary MURPHY
Father WALSH James
At OVENS
Year 1843
36901/1843
Sue
;D ;D ;D
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I am not so concerned about the WALSH family starting out in Bathurst. But a child then born in Sydney, and the family contunuing to regional Victoria makes the Sydney visit look odd.
What names do you see for witnesses at the 1867 marriage, James WALSH?
Usually, when a BDM event is recorded in one state, and references a location in another state, the record shows the name of the state eg Bathurst NSW, Sydney NSW. So Bath seems a bit odd. Also Sydney , with no state.
Are you looking at a handwritten document or is it a transcription?
Where is the death record in the VIC BDM index for Mary Ann WALSH,5 deceased at 1867?
Does it mean that Mary Ann would have been five in 1867, or did she die at age 5?
There should be a death to find for Mary Ann WALSH/WALCH/WELSH in Victoria, died 1860-1867?
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It has just dawned on me that Jeremiah and Robert were twins ;D
I should have picked it up from the baptisms record.
WALSH Jeremiah
Birth
Mother MaryUNKNOWN
Father WALSH James
OVENS RIVER
Yr 1848
3009/1848
WALSH Robert
Birth
Mother Mary UNKNOWN
Father WALSH James
OVENS RIVER
Year 1848
3008/1848
Sue
ADDING
Looking at the baptism that is not the case. There are different years. Wonder if one Jeremiah died and the baptismal record is for the next Jeremiah. Very confused.
::)
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The baptsim record shows two different dates for birth. The BDM record shows 1848 as the year when the births were registered....sequentially.
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The baptsim record shows two different dates for birth. The BDM record shows 1848 as the year when the births were registered....sequentially.
Thanks wivenhoe, I just amended my above post to reflect error
Sue
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Wexflyer - The databases I use record parishes and not townlands in Ireland.
Yes, but the parishes are Catholic parishes, aren't they? By contrast, you stated that the birth/baptism you found was in Kilmurry **civil** parish. To know that, you would need to know a townland, wouldn't you?
Catholic parishes in general did not have the same area or borders as a civil parish of the same name, and usually incorporated multiple civil parishes.
To take Kilmurry as a specific example, the Catholic parish was comprised of four civil parishes, viz:
Cannaway, Kilbonane, Kilmurry, and Moviddy.
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A question for OP - you mention having used the www.IrishGenealogy.ie (http://www.IrishGenealogy.ie) database. Have you checked the actual original records though, which are all available online (free)?
Transcripts can be incorrect, or miss details, and godparents were often relatives, etc.
Links for original records:
Mary, baptized 5 May, 1820, Kilmurry
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634439#page/48/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634439#page/48/mode/1up)
Mary, baptized 21st December, 1817, Kilmurry
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634439#page/30/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634439#page/30/mode/1up)
Mary baptized 1 February, 1817, Inniscarra
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634085#page/140/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634085#page/140/mode/1up)
Note - Christian name of father is doubtful, but was transcribed as Jerm.
Also, twin, John, baptized at same time? The father is more clearly Jeremiah on this entry.
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OP - you mention checking Griffith's Valuation for Jeremiah Murphy entries.
But that for Cork dates from 1853. Have you checked the tythe valuations, which are substantially earlier?
Of course, you now have more than one civil parish to deal with.
And Jeremiah tended appear as Jerry or Gerry.
As it happens, Murphy is a very numerous surname, and Jeremiah was a popular Christian name in Cork. So I think there will be quite a few.
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I have Frances's birth certificate in 1867 stating that Mary was from Co. Cork.
If Mary was born in 1820 then she would have been approximately 47 in 1867. Does that not seem improbable?
So, is this Frances a daughter of Mary with 100% certainty, or is it that Mary was probably born several years after 1820?
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Hi, Neale
Thanks for the link and the information. I had tried going through the immigration shipping lists one by one, but the Bounty Index is waaaaay faster ;D. I was not familiar with this index on Family Search. There are probably a lot of other databases on Family Search I am not familiar with either. The link you gave me makes sense, because of the lack of information about her parents on her death certificate. How sad for her, I wonder what happened to her after her birth being an orphan? :'(
I always thought my family was Catholic :-\. It is possible she converted because her husband was Catholic. Or maybe had to convert when she lived in Ireland....?
Two points:
- There was an official state religion in Ireland at the time, and it was not Catholic. If an orphan had to be raised by the state, then the child was raised as Protestant.
- If this is OP's Mary, then what are we to make of the search for parents named Jeremiah Murphy, and mother O'Connor? If she couldn't remember her parents names, aged 19, then how could her grandchildren know, when she died?
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Thanks for looking up the NSW BDM register. I ordered a copy of 3826/1840 from NSW BDM and I was sent a transcript for James and Margaret Walsh, who married in Bathurst on 4th June 1840 at an unnamed Catholic Church. So the transcript did not match.
You actually need to view a copy of the original church record. In my experience, NSW BMD are NOT good at doing accurate transcriptions. :(
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How can you order a copy and get a transcription?
Doesn't make sense.
Sue
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At reply #27
How did you come by this image of baptism record, 1848?
"I ordered a copy of 3826/1840 from NSW BDM and I was sent a transcript for James and Margaret Walsh"
Did you order this through BDM NSW, via their website?
Did you order this through a transcription service?
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I wonder whether an email inquiry here would help you.
https://bathurst.catholic.org.au/directory/archives/
Sue
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Thanks to everyone for all the information. When I have a chance to look at the original church records from Bathurst at the NSW state library, I will give you all a hoy on here.