RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Malcolm Butcher on Saturday 01 April 23 20:30 BST (UK)
-
My first cousin, once removed was based here between WW1 and WW2. He was accidentally shot and killed whilst there. I would like to find out more but don't know how to go about it. Can you help?
Rifleman Edward Thomas Richards
6843775
M.G. Company
Outram Barracks
Lucknow
India
D.O.B: 3rd September 1904 at Moelfre, Llansilin, Denbighshire
-
Indian Burials have
Death May 15th 1932 Edward Thomas Richards aged 27 yrs 5 months and 12 days 6843775 Rifleman, Royal Rifle Corps. Buried 16th May 1932, cause of death gunshot wound.
Military Cemetery of Fort William, Bengal.
It would be possible to get a death certificate from the Gro overseas deaths.
Cathy
-
Hi Cathy and thank you very much for this. This chap was my mum's cousin. My mum is 102 years old and remembers hearing the news about it. She'll be pleased to have an update. Would you know how I would go about getting hold of the death certificate? Malcolm
-
The 20 year period between the end of the first world war and the start of the second means that around 10 to fifteen infantry battalions could have been rotated through the Lucknow Garrison during the period. The rank of Rifleman helps to narrow things down a bit as only certain types of Infantry call their private soldiers by this title: mainly they are the Rifle Brigade, the Light Infantry and regiments whose title ends in Rifles, eg th Royal Ulster Rifles.
A quick check through some of the likely candidates for his unit shows that the 2nd Battalion of the Highland Light Infantry were stationed in Lucknow in 1930, although their overall stay in India spanned the period 1923 -1934. The 1st bn the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry were in Lucknow in 1927, and 2nd bn the Durham Light Iinfantry were in the North West of India during the period 1920-1936 so could have spent time in Lucknow. There are no records I am aware of which list the occupants of the individual barracks within the Lucknow District. Around 1927 - 30 the 6th Lucknow Brigade consisted of 4 infantry battalions at any one time.
As Cathy has already mentioned there is a death entry in the Army Overseas Death Returns in the period 1931-35 for an Edward T Richards aged 27 who died in 1932. The place recorded is Calcutta, but that may have been where he was in hospital after the incident. You can get a copy of the death certificate from the GRO to see if this gives further details which might confirm if this was your man. I would expect there to have been a Board of Inquiry into his death. This is somewhat similar to a coroner's Inquest in civilian life. Nothing comes up immediately on a TNA search for his name.
-
The formal title of his unit was the King's Royal Rifle Corps which later merged with a couple of other regiments to become the Royal Green Jackets, which in turn became the present day 2nd battalion, The Rifles. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rifles)
-
Hi Andy. This is great stuff. I understand that Teddy accidentally shot himself whilst cleaning his gun. Mind you, that tale is now 90 years old and I'd like to get to the truth. It would be very interesting to see any inquest papers. I'll also look into ordering the death certificate too.
Thank you very much also for the update on his unit.
Malcolm
-
It is extremely difficult to accidentally shoot yourself with your own rifle, which at that time would have been the Lee Enfield Short Magazine. https://www.rifleman.org.uk/The_Rifle_Short_Magazine_Lee-Enfield.html
I rather suspect it was either suicide or he was accidentally shot by a fellow soldier. Perhaps best not to pass on that comment to your mum!
-
I think it was something to do with cleaning his rifle and it all went wrong. I am a lot further on with this now and I'll look into it on Monday and update this post with anything else I find out.
Thank you again,
Malcolm
-
See you ve got some good advice on how to proceed :) I agree, the cause of death could come as a shock, no reason to think so but best be prepared.
Cathy
-
Cathy, you're dead right about the advice and I really appreciate it. One more thing: how do I go about ordering the death certificate? I've done plenty of them from these islands but never from abroad.
-
Malcolm,
Log in to the GRO site in the normal way then select Place an Order from the menu on the right hand side. You should then see the form below. Select the third option Outside the UK then fill in the next boxes for Death and the year 1932 until you get to the I know the GRO reference part and enter 142 (it is shown on the image I posted above) along with his names. That's all there is to it.
-
Cathy and Andy you've been a terrific help with this. Thank you very much indeed. The certificate will be tomorrow's job and on Monday I'll get onto the Rifles museum to see if they have anything. As promised above, I'll keep you posted with any progress.
Best wishes,
Malcolm
-
I don't have a subscription to findmypast,or BNA, however there appear to be a couple of newspaper accounts about the incident.
24 June 1932 - Civil & Military Gazette (Lahore)
26 June 1932 - Civil & Military Gazette (Lahore)
From the previews available I think he was shot in a fit of temper by a fellow soldier, Private William George HOCKADAY. The charge was "culpable homicide not amounting to murder ".
-
I think I'm shocked! Thank you for sending me this. There's a library near me that opens from 10 - 2 on a Sunday and I'll be down there this morning to look at FindMyPast and the newspaper archive. I can get them both for free there. It just shows how some family legends aren't always correct.
-
Malcolm, I have a vague memory that you get a couple of free look-ups with the British Newspaper Archives, before you have to pay. You might save yourself a trip out, if that is still the case. Why not give it a try?
-
I'm sorry that it is quite a surprise. As you say, family stories often contain a kernel of the truth, somewhat sanitised (or often embellished) over time.
-
Thank you for the suggestion, I'll give it a go. The newspaper archive is free to use at any library. A member of staff at my local record office put me onto this some time ago. You can't use it at home; it must be in a library and somehow the system recognises that you're in a library and lets you in. FindMyPast and Ancestry are also free to use too.
-
Maddy, there's no need to apologise. It might sound a bit gruesome but it livens up my family history to some tune. It must have been dreadful at the time but who doesn't want a bit of intrigue in their tree?
-
I now have the previews from the newspaper and I'm planning to get the full reports in a couple of hours' time. I can't get the free look ups at home sadly. Watch this space and thank you all for your interest and help.
-
As you will have probably seen by now, his friend Pte William George Hockaday was found guilty of culpable homicide not amounting to murder and sentenced to 10 years in prison on 24 June 1932. I would assume that the prosecution was unable to prove that Hockaday had intended to kill Richards, hence he was not found guilty on the alternative charge of murder.
The previous newspaper report on the day of the trial mentions that Pte Richards died instantly.
-
Thanks again Andy. This morning I went to the local library and logged into the newspaper archive but it wouldn't let me look at the Civil & Military Gazette. I came home and subscribed to the archive. I now have the full story via four articles. I have sent for Edward's army record which will probably cost me thirty quid, but I think it'll be worth it. As a side issue I am hoping to find out what happened to Edward's mother Catherine, my great aunt. With a bit of luck there might be something in the record that will give me more information. 24 hours ago I had no idea about this matter and now, thanks to a handful of great people, I have a really interesting piece of family history. Thank you all again.
-
Hi Andy. It's Monday morning now and I'm struggling to find out how to order this death certificate. I can't get to the page that you copied and posted the other day. Would you be able to walk me through the process, step by step, please? I'm not particularly thick; I just can't find what to do.
In other news, I spoke to my mum this morning and relayed the update on Teddy's (that's what the family called him) death. She wasn't at all fazed and put it all down to the adults at the time wanting to soften the blow for the children. As a young girl of no more than 11 years of age my mum used to write to Teddy in the 1920s/30s which is how she remembers his address and army number. She reeled it off for me over the phone this morning.
-
Hi Malcolm,
Happy to help if I can. First of all, are you registered with the GRO for their online service (https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp)? I assume you are. Once you are logged in you should see a page headed What would you like to do?. On the right hand side is a list of options. Number 3, immediately under the words Main Menu, should read Place an Order. Clicking on that option should bring you to the page (or something similar to it) shown in the image I posted yesterday. There should be three options in the box in the centre under where it says Where was the event registered? Click on the third one, Outside the United Kingdom and registered by the British Forces, Consul or High Commission and this should bring up some new boxes underneath. Select death in the What type of event was it? box, then put in the year in the next box which appears. This should bring up the penultimate set of questions, entitled How can the event be identified? Select I know the GRO reference and then fill in the boxes on the last form, using the GRO reference 142.
Let me know if you experience something different to my description. Otherwise, I hope that works for you.
-
Thank you once again Andy. I hadn't registered with the GRO until 15 minutes ago and now I have placed the order exactly as you advised. This Rootschat thing is terrific and I'm really grateful for all the help I've been given.
-
That's great. I doubt if the death certificate will give a lot more information over what you already know from the newspapers. But with luck his service records will provide lots of extra details about him and his time in the Army.
-
I suspect you're right about the certificate and I hope you're right about the army record, assuming I can get a copy. It can take several weeks and I'll let you know when I have any updates.
-
Update:
I have heard from the army that the average time for dealing with requests for records is six months. Never mind, it'll be an early Christmas present.
I tried to upload the four newspaper articles that I found but the file is too big.
Thank you again to each of you that helped me with this and I'll hope to give a further update as and when I hear more.
-
The 20 year period between the end of the first world war and the start of the second means that around 10 to fifteen infantry battalions could have been rotated through the Lucknow Garrison during the period. The rank of Rifleman helps to narrow things down a bit as only certain types of Infantry call their private soldiers by this title: mainly they are the Rifle Brigade, the Light Infantry and regiments whose title ends in Rifles, eg th Royal Ulster Rifles.
A quick check through some of the likely candidates for his unit shows that the 2nd Battalion of the Highland Light Infantry were stationed in Lucknow in 1930, although their overall stay in India spanned the period 1923 -1934. The 1st bn the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry were in Lucknow in 1927, and 2nd bn the Durham Light Iinfantry were in the North West of India during the period 1920-1936 so could have spent time in Lucknow. There are no records I am aware of which list the occupants of the individual barracks within the Lucknow District. Around 1927 - 30 the 6th Lucknow Brigade consisted of 4 infantry battalions at any one time.
As Cathy has already mentioned there is a death entry in the Army Overseas Death Returns in the period 1931-35 for an Edward T Richards aged 27 who died in 1932. The place recorded is Calcutta, but that may have been where he was in hospital after the incident. You can get a copy of the death certificate from the GRO to see if this gives further details which might confirm if this was your man. I would expect there to have been a Board of Inquiry into his death. This is somewhat similar to a coroner's Inquest in civilian life. Nothing comes up immediately on a TNA search for his name.
In the period 1921 to 1942 one can always find a soldiers unit by his number.
The KRRC had the number block 6837001 to 6905000 allocated to them.
Its always easy to find the unit thus... ;)