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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: rotosis on Friday 24 March 23 01:55 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I have the marriage for Thomas F Watkins to Nora Ibbotson in 1942. They had a son in 1945 registered June Quarter.
I don't have the certificate of the marriage as yet.
Thomas F Watkins was born about Jul 1918 in St Asaph, Flintshire (or Denbighshire) North Wales. (found on Ancestry) Pontypridd, Glamorgan mothers maiden name is Jones...
I'm looking for Thomas' parents.
I found a possible grave for Thomas and Nora's son, however there are other people on another headstone in the same plot. I am not sure if they are the grandparents or parents... (which would mean I have the wrong son) If they do happen to be his parents, they were quite old parents.
Their names were Samuel Francis Watkins b. 1891 and died 1970 and Jane Elizabeth Jones who died in 1958... Apparently they married in 1919. The son I mention was born in 1945 which is the same on the grave... this one died in 2008 aged 62... I can't find another person to match my first couple Thomas & Nora, which is why I'm trying to find out who his parents are. I can't find him on the 1921 census either...
I haven't mentioned the sons name just in case he isn't dead and in the grave I found.
Thanks for any help anyone can give and I hope i've not confused people.
Rotosis
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You mention Anc so if you have access to the site have you considered this family tree on Anc where the family have returned from Austrialia where son Thomas was born - but they were in the UK in St Asaph on the 1939 Register https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/105898468/person/382331796788/facts But the only thing to confirm his father etc the 1942 marriage cert
Kay
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I note the marriage in 1941 which records Thomas F Watkins, sadly the GRO Registrations
only record full middle names on births, if there is one, in this case the only birth in Wales, 1918 +/- 2 years, is below.
WATKINS, THOMAS FRANCIS mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1916 M Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 1455
There are no Thomas Watkins registrations in the same period in Flintshire or Denbigshire.
This is likely to be Nora.
Births Jun 1922 Ibbotson Norah Cooke St.Asaph 11b 508a
Colin
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On the 1921 census transcript on FindMyPast there is only one Thomas Francis in Wales, the birth registration above. In England there is a Thomas F (1917) in Northampton and Thomas Frank (1920) in Greenwich.
Needless to say there are plenty Registration and 1921 censuses for a Thomas Watkins.
Colin
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A possible as per ColC's post,
WATKINS, THOMAS FRANCIS WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1916 M Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 1455
appears in 1939 with same dob as this death.
Thomas Francis Watkins
7 Jan 1916 Feb 1994 South Glamorgan South Glamorgan
John
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Again only a possible, but in 1939 Thomas F Watkins appears with a possible sister Dora V Davies, and a possible mother Gladys R(Ruth) Watkins
WATKINS, DORA VIVIEN WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1914 D Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 160
Marriages Sep 1939
Davies Vivian I Watkins Cardiff 11a 876
Watkins Dora V Davies Cardiff 11a 876
Marriages Jun 1914
WATKINS Francis Williams Merthyr T. 11a 1540
WILLIAMS Gladys R Watkins Merthyr T. 11a 1540
John
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Again only a possible, but in 1939 Thomas F Watkins appears with a possible sister Dora V Davies, and a possible mother Gladys R(Ruth) Watkins
WATKINS, DORA VIVIEN WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1914 D Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 160
John
That ties in with the 1921 census for Thomas.
Colin
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Probably not the Thomas Francis Watkins born 1916. He appears in 1951-54 electoral registers at the same address as 1939 war register with his parents. He then marries June C Rysdale in 1954, so unless Nora has died/separated from Thomas then not our man, but I'm still not convinced ;D
Looks as though the marriage certificate is needed .
John
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This is why I had reservations
Marriages Mar 1950
Bayley David P Watkins Falmouth 7a 66
Bayley David P Ibbotson Falmouth 7a 66
Ibbotson Nora Bayley Falmouth 7a 66
Watkins Norah Bayley Falmouth 7a 66
John
added
Name: Nora Ibbotson
Gender: F (Female)
Birth Date: 8 may 1922 (8 May 1922)
Birth Place: Rhyl, Flintshire (Rhyl), Clwyd, Wales, United Kingdom
Death Date: 14 août 1999 (14 Aug 1999)
Death Place: Falmouth, Cornwall, England, United Kingdom
Father:
Alan Ibbotson
Mother:
Ellen (Nellie) Cooke
Spouse:
Thomas F Watkins
David Pryce Bayley
2 Bayley/Ibbotson sons born 1951/3 Bedfordshire
David Pryce Bayley & Nora appear between 1951-53 Bedfordshire electoral reisters
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Info.
Thomas Francis Watkins 2nd wife's death
June Catherine Watkins
2 Jun 1928 Oct 2004 Torbay Devon
They had a daughter born 1956 Cardiff
John
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Hi everyone and thank you for your replies.
I continued to look at Ancestry (at the library) though I do have Find my past. It does seem that Thomas Francis Watkins was born in Australia. He has an Australian war record giving his marriage to Jane Elizabeth Jones as well as his mother's name. Apparently they had two sons so this makes me wonder if one of them is the father to my Francis A Watkins. However the GRO say Nora Ibbotson and Thomas F Watkins are his parents and neither of his sons were called Thomas and Jane didn't die until 1958. Also Francis A Watkins is the only one born in St Asaph. His parents divorced and as shown in replies she went on to marry D P Bayley.
This is why i'm not sure if the Australian Thomas Francis Watkins is correct. It just happens there is a Francis Allen Watkins born in 1945 in the same plot.
Once again thank you for all your help. I need to go through the replies again... check on 2nd marriages etc.
Thanks
Rotosis
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Birth of Thomas Francis Watkins in Queensland Australia.
Thomas Francis Watkins
Event date: 21/09/1922
Event type: Birth registration
Registration details: 1922/C/11978
Mother: Jane Elizabeth Jones
Father/parent: Samuel Francis Watkins
Quote from your last post"
"I continued to look at Ancestry (at the library) though I do have Find my past. It does seem that Thomas Francis Watkins was born in Australia. He has an Australian war record giving his marriage to Jane Elizabeth Jones as well as his mother's name.
Thomas did NOT marry Jane Elizabeth Jones in 1919, it was his father Samuel Francis Watkins who married Jane Elizabeth.
Now we have an exact dob for Thomas Francis birth in Australia we can rule out that it is not him who married Nora Ibbotson as their dob's are approx 6 years apart.
Thomas Francis born Australia probably did die in 2021. Cannot find him in 1939 though, may have enlisted?
Will continue to search, however I strongly believe the Watkins/Ibbotson son born in 1945 is the said Francis Allen Watkins buried aged 62.
John
added, from quote
Apparently they had two sons so this makes me wonder if one of them is the father to my Francis A Watkins.
Who had 2 sons
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Hi John
Yeah sorry I got Samuel and Thomas mixed up there. I know Samuel married Jane... oops.
How or where did you find the birth? I looked in Queensland BMD and all the other states and couldn't find it. I know how you found it now. You put in both forenames. Other sites usually bring up both names in results apparently Queensland doesn't I checked on the off chance due to finding a family tree stating he was born in 1921 in Australia. Needless to say. Thank you for finding the birth registration :)
There is a marriage of his parents in the Uk and nothing in Queensland. However, I did find a couple of births for Jane Elizabeth Jones, though not of the year dates match her headstone. Meaning the one I found in the UK maybe hers.
Back to the army records and see what I can work out date wise.
Thank you for all your help
Rotosis
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Hi folks
All done and sorted. Thanks to everyone and John Hood... He found the birth registration. It seems Queensland needs both forenames to find a person... where other sites don't.
All the dots now connect and It seems Francis A Watkins (half-cousin) is buried with his grandparents.
Thanks all
Rotosis
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To all who read this post. I want to apologies for some of my research re this post. I made an assumption, run with it, came to the wrong result. Thomas Francis Watkins born 1922 Australia did marry Nora Ibbotson. They had a son 1945. Parents then separate. He did not remarry in 1954
The 1954 marriage was the Thomas Francis Watkins born 1916.
As they say "lessons learnt"
John
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Hi everyone
Thank you for your help. Mystery solved. I now have the marriage certificate for Thomas Francis Watkins who married my Aunt Nora.
The headstone I found is correct.
Happy and another part of the tree is finished, other than contacting any children their son had.
Thank you again.
Rotosis