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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: Matthew4298 on Friday 17 March 23 14:46 GMT (UK)
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Hello, I wonder if anyone could give me some guidance. I've done quite a bit of genealogical research, but it has been in the US, and I am not familiar with all the resources and geography of the UK. In addition to this I've had the further difficulty of researching the name Jones. After years of trying and getting no where I have finally just begun to get somewhere. Recently I received a copy of my great-grandmother Jane Jones' birth certificate. She was born September 30, 1892 in Llanrug Carnarvon. In the "When and Where Born" column, it states her place of birth as (and I'm not sure if I'm deciphering all the letters correctly) "Brynhyfryd Parish of Llanrug R.D.D. (or maybe R.O.O.). What exactly does this mean? I googled variations of Brynhyfryd and don't find anything near Llanrug. What what does R.D.D. or R.O.O mean? Does that have something to do with the church? I know there are Church of England and then non-conformist churches. If anyone could give me some information and how I might be able to use this information I'd be grateful.
Thanks!
Matt
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There is a Jane Jones, b 1893, in Llanrug in 1901 near a house with a similar name. It is located between Pool Street and New Street.
Her house looks like Talgwynedd nad her moyher was Margaret, a widow.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:X9B4-7NF
David
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There is a Jane Jones, b 1893, in Llanrug in 1901 near a house with a similar name. It is located between Pool Street and New Street.
Her house looks like Talgwynedd nad her moyher was Margaret, a widow.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:X9B4-7NF
David
Cert shows her mother was Ellen. Nee Hughes. Father William
It’s R.S.D.
Rural Sanitary Districts (and Urban Sanitary Districts) were the forerunners of the modern Councils -
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There is a family in 1901
I am not convinced it is the correct family, but just incase.
William O. Jones 34 slate quarryman (which is annoying as her father is a joiner on that birth cert)
Ellen 33
John W. Age 13
Jane M. Age 9
They live next door to a house named Brynffrid
https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:X9B4-WT9
This family speak welsh and the 1911 census is written in welsh.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:X7VF-14G
edited to add, I found this William’s marriage and he is a Mason then, so I don’t think this is your family, although this Ellen is also nee Hughes
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A tree on Ancestry has the family in 1901 and 1911 as posted by mckha489.
It also has a photograph of the memorial to William and Ellen of 2, Bonc, Bryn Bras, and their son, John.
On the censuses the abode is Bonk or Bonc. Also Bonk in 1891.
David
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References to 2, Bonc, Llanrug, gives the post code as LL55 4RG.
You can see it on Google Maps
Also on this map, which goes Bryn-ffridd, Bonc-bryn-bras and Bryn-Bras Castle on the left-hand side
https://maps.nls.uk/view/135192247
Side by Side: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17.6&lat=53.14069&lon=-4.18239&layers=168&right=ESRIWorld
David
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Welcome to Rootschat :)
Does not help locate parents but there is a possible 1911
Jane Jones age 18 living Llanwnda, Caernavon at The Homes Bontnewydd. Gives birthplace as Cwm Y Glo which is a village in Llanrug. No other details listed. The places are within same map area.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llanrug
Do you have her marriage details? It can sometimes all help
Cas
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There is a Bryn-hyfryd in Llanrug on this map, on the opposite side of the road from the Methodist Chapel
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101606430#zoom=6&lat=4956&lon=7778&layers=BT
Gadget
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Hello all. Thanks for your replies. I'll tell you a little bit about what I know also more about Jane's story as it is interesting. Maybe you can also tell me if my reasoning is sound. My great-grandfather, Steven A. Rebeck was a sculptor from Cleveland. During World War I he was in the 97th Aero Squadron and on his way to France he stopped in Liverpool. There he found Jane Jones being assaulted and rescued her. He saw her a few times the next few days and asked her to marry him (she declined) but they corresponded throughout the war, and in 1920 she sailed to America to marry him. The story was written up in the New York Times and in papers throughout the US. (I also just found it written up in a Liverpool and London paper. The former having an interview with her mother). They had three sons, but unfortunately Jane (also known as Jennie) died young in 1933 leaving very little information. From family lore I knew she had a brother Christopher. I have a picture of Christopher and Edith Jones labeled London 1951 from my grandfather so there was a little contact at that time. Her death certificate lists her birth as September 30, 1897. The newspaper accounts and marriage license in 1920 list her age as 22 which agree with that date. Though the Ellis Island and UK departing passenger lists state her name as 27 (I always thought the 27 age was a mistake in these lists but I was wrong, more on this later. Her birth place on the marriage license and passenger lists is Carnarvon. Her parents are listed as William and Ellen (Hughes) Jones on the marriage license. And her nearest relative on the Ellis Island Passenger List is her mother, Mrs. Ceven 14 Carrington Street. There's also an entry in my grandfather's baby book mentioning her mother Mrs. Ceven, or at least what I took for Mrs. Ceven. Someone told me a few years ago that Ceven was not a British name, and when she looked at the baby book, she thought the name was Owen. I can get Owen and Ceven out of the name. Presumably the person who typed the passenger list did too. With that information I got no where for many years. I even tried ordering a birth certificate for Jane but they found no matches in Carnarvon, 1897 with parents William and Ellen (Hughes) Jones.
Recently, I realized that the 1921 census had come out, and using that I looked up the address 14 Carrington Street and found a Ellen Owen (57 born Anglesea North Wales living with her son Christopher Jones (19 born Walton, Liverpool). From there I went to the 1911 census and found an Ellen Jones (widowed 47 born Anglesea, Beaumaris) and Christmas (9, born Liverpool) living at 43 Alverstone Road, Liverpool. This seemed like a good match. I assumed Christmas became Christopher. But there was no Jane. I did however find two Jane Jones nearby - one Jane Jones was 14 (born Lyn Ddol Llanyst) and a visitor at a household nearby. The other Jane Jones was a servant, age 19 and born Carnarvon Llandudns.Thinking Christmas Jones might narrow my results quite a bit, I searched for his name and found a few listings for him in school records. I found one school record particularly illuminating. It listed his address as 43 Alverstone (the same as the 1911 census) his birthdate as December 25, 1901 in Liverpool, and his parents as William and Ellen (Hughes) Jones. He was also listed as fatherless (in 1911). His parents marriage was listed as being November 24, 1891, West Derby (I have ordered the certificate but not received it yet). The parents matched the names of her parents on the birth certificate. With that I ordered his birth certificate. And his birth certificate listed his place of birth as 2 Olney Street, West Derby. His father's occupation is joiner. I then found the Olney Street address in the 1901 census. And I found the following:
William Jones, 50, Joiner, Mold
Ellen Jones, 36, Llanrug, Wales
Jane Jones, 8, Llanrug Wales
Ellen Jones, 5, Liverpool
Owen Jones, 11, Liverpool
(Note that Ellen Jones age is 1 year younger than one would expect from the 1911 and 1921 census and that her birthplace is listed as Llanrug here as opposed to Anglesea in 1911 and 1921. Christmas doesn't show up on this census because he won't be born until the end of the year in December)
With that I ordered the birth certificates for Ellen and Owen in Liverpool, and the best match I could find for Jane. All had William and Ellen (Hughes) Jones listed as parents, and William's occupation as joiner. So I am pretty sure I have the right Jones family and the right Jane. And that is where I am at and led to my current question about the birth certificate. I'm hoping to receive the marriage certificate of William and Ellen (as well as the marriage certificate of Ellen Jones and Robert Owen in 1918) by the end of next week.
So for all those who have been patient and kind enough to read through all this, does my reasoning seem sound? And what next steps would you take? Are church records worth looking into? Is the parish of Llanrug available online? Thanks again! It is exciting to finally be getting some where.
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It all sounds very feasible and links through addresses and dates of birth.
1939 register - There is a Christopher Jones b 25 Dec 1900 which is a year out but not unknown, wife Edith b1910 living Lewisham, London, England. 2 redacted entries.
Cas
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It all sounds extremely feasible.
(Wish you had given that information in original post)
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Yes, I apologize about that. I should have. I wasn't sure such a long post would be appreciate, and the short direct question about the birth certificate was all I was really looking forward to. I didn't realize people would try to be so helpful as to look up censuses and all. I am very thankful and grateful to all who responded. I imagine it is only going to get harder going back a further generation, so I'm sure I will be seeking more advice here.
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Did you notice on the 1901 census that there's a boarder - John H Hughes aged 23 of Llanrug. Related?
Also Owen is 11 months not 11 years old as your write up suggests
Interesting family in Llanrug in 1891
Hugh Hughes 53 b LLanrug
Jane Hughes 52 Wife b Llandegfan Anglesea
Ellen Hughes 27 Daughter b Llandegfan Anglesea
John Hughes 13 Son b LLanrug
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I did notice the John H. Hughes as a boarder, but hadn't thought much about it yet. I must have mistyped Owen's age, because I did know it was 11 months.
Thanks for the find in the 1891 census. I had not come across that yet. I'm going to make a note about it. I'm still waiting for the William and Ellen (Hughes) Jones marriage certificate which should help confirm or disprove whether this is the right family.
Is there any interesting history or information about Lllanrug? I haven't found much on the internet other than wikipedia.
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Following up on the 1891 census posted by Mabel, if it turns out to be the right family, these seem to be the same Hugh Hughes and Jane
Marriage on 26th September 1857 at Llandegfan:-
Hugh Hughes, quarryman, of Llanrug, son of Griffith Hughes, quarryman
Jane Parry of Llandegfan, daughter of Hugh Parry, labourer.
Witnesses: Thomas Hughes and Sarah Prichard
Baptisms:-
Hugh Hughes, son of Hugh, quarryman, and Jane, on 27th January 1861 in Llandegfan.
Ellen Hughes, daughter of Hugh, quarryman, and Jane, on 24th April 1864 in Llandegfan.
1881: https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WS-N65K (at Talygwynedd)
1871: https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:V515-WFQ (at Brynhyfryd, Cwm-y-glo)
https://media.onthemarket.com/properties/4442692/1038600679/document-0.pdf
https://themovemarket.com/tools/propertyprices/2-bryn-hyfryd-terrace-caernarfon-ll55-4du
1861: https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:M72G-PSM (Griffith)
1861: https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:M72T-Q75 (Hugh)
1851: https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:SGVK-ZV1
Griffith born in Llanfairiesgoer (Llanfair is gaer)
1841: https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:M7QB-NWT
My 3x great grandfather was a Methodist preacher in Llanrug, so might have known some of the family. He was in Cwm-y-glo in 1861.
David
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Hi David,
Thanks for all the information. I just looked through it all and it looks like a good match. I'm hoping to have Ellen and Williams marriage certificate by the end of this week (beginning of next at the latest) and we will see if it is a match.
Where was the baptism information from? Were they Church of England or non-conformist?
Matt
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The marriage and baptisms are on https://www.findmypast.co.uk/ but you need a subscription to view them. They were at the parish church.
The following might be the birth registrations, although there are two Hughs and the dates are not the same as the baptisms. I can't find a baptism for John.
HUGHES, ELLEN mmn PARRY
GRO Reference: 1863 S Quarter in ANGLESEY Volume 11B Page 523
HUGHES, HUGH mmn PARRY
GRO Reference: 1860 D Quarter in ANGLESEY Volume 11B Page 501
HUGHES, HUGH PARRY
GRO Reference: 1860 J Quarter in ANGLESEY Volume 11B Page 571
HUGHES, JOHN mmn PARRY
GRO Reference: 1876 S Quarter in ANGLESEY Volume 11B Page 580
The marriage of Hugh Hughes to Jane Parry was probably Q3 1857 in Bangor.
This map has Brynhyfryd in Cwm-y-glo
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17.1&lat=53.14038&lon=-4.16931&layers=168&right=ESRIWorld
David
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You have homed in on "your" Jane so well.
It's a pity the American papers muddied the waters with their "age 22" in reporting the romance. Nonetheless they identified the ship she sailed on in 1920 where she gave her age as 27 on the passenger list and published a photo of the couple after the happy event.
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It took longer than I expected to receive William and Ellen's marriage certificate (almost three weeks in the mail). Anyhow it confirms Ellen's father to be Hugh Hughes, a quarryman, and confirms the censuses that were posted previously above. Thanks for all your help!
Now I need to work on William who is seeming to be a little more illusive.
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Also reflecting on her age. It did prove difficult tracing her because of her age change from 27 in the UK to 22 in the US. I have to wonder if she just went with it after she got here. The 1930 census also gives information that would be consistent with the 1897 (as opposed to the 1892 birthdate). And her husband, thought it was 1897 when he put was the informant for her 1933 death certificate.