RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: frizzante on Tuesday 14 March 23 10:56 GMT (UK)
-
I am going to pre-apologise because I cannot give details here about the specific records or people involved, I am just asking for advice on how I might be able to find these records myself.
I have a civil marriage that took place in Glasgow in 1883 by Sherriff's Warrant/two witnesses. There is also a Catholic church marriage record from the same day.
In 1902 the wife of that couple claims to have remarried in the Glasgow registry office, but I can find no record of that marriage. Then, in England in 1915 she marries the same man she claimed to have married in 1902 (and there is evidence they were together the entire time, children born with both names on the birth records, etc). This one is an actual marriage as it's listed in the GRO index.
Edit to add: The first husband was still alive at the time of both of these marriages.
On the 1883 civil marriage on ScotlandsPeople there is no note of divorce and no link on the page to the register of corrected entries. Is there another place I can look for divorces?
I'm assuming the 1902 marriage is imaginary, but the 1915 one is real. Would she have been able to get a divorce in England at that time (1900-1915) for a marriage that took place in Scotland? Or is it more likely that there was never any divorce?
Thank you for any help you can offer, and again I am sorry I can't give the names/details of these records.
-
Have you looked for a death for the first husband? They may have married in 1915 having waited until they were both free to do so.
-
Sorry, I should have mentioned this. The first husband was alive past 1915.
-
For a divorce in England'Wales, you can try searching your names on https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ but I woudn't personally hold my breath.
It's very likely there was no divorce. The hurdles for the average person (financial, legal, societal) at this time were just too high compared to the relatively simple and face-saving solution of just going somewhere that nobody knew about your first husband and saying you were widowed. There would have been no way the registrar could have cross-checked the information she gave, unless someone locally knew her history and was willing to dob her in.
Have you sighted the 1915 marriage certificate? How is she listed there? If she is "single" or "widowed", you can presume there almost certainly was no formal divorce.
-
It's always worth checking the newspapers as many divorces were reported.
-
My husband's great aunt was married in Edinburgh in 1912. She then married her second husband in Glasgow in 1916 stating that she was a spinster. There is an RCE to this second marriage which nullifies the second marriage and she was convicted of Bigamy and served time in prison.
Husband number one died in 1923 and she married her third husband in 1930 stating she was a widow - correct.
So how many others didn't bother with the expense of a divorce and either lied or assumed they were free to remarry?? Perhaps this is similar to your relative frizzante. We may never know
By the way my husband says his great aunt was a wonderful old lady.
Dorrie
-
So how many others didn't bother with the expense of a divorce and either lied or assumed they were free to remarry??
Quite a number of my ancestors, including two sets of my GG parents, one of them at least three times out of his six marriages!
-
Have you sighted the 1915 marriage certificate? How is she listed there? If she is "single" or "widowed", you can presume there almost certainly was no formal divorce.
I've ordered it but it will take a week to arrive. On the 2nd husband's military record it lists her as wife, widow, married reg office 1902. There's a note next to it that says "to be married by English law at the first opportunity" and then the date of the 1915 marriage. So I believe she was never divorced, but I didn't want to jump to conclusions.
-
In 1902 the wife of that couple claims to have remarried in the Glasgow registry office, but I can find no record of that marriage. T
I am pretty sure that there were no Registry Office marriages in Scotland in 1902. I think they only started in 1940 following the Marriage (Scotland) Act 1939 which abolished marriage by custom & repute and marriage by Sheriff's Warrant and so brought Scotland broadly in line with England.
-
Did the first husband remain in Scotland? Wondering what his death cert stated about his marital status. Scottish death certs will show name of spouse(s) if known to the informant.
Just as a further check, you could have a look here https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/search.aspx
Make sure to click the button for 'phrase' and just search one name at a time. You never know ::)
Monica
-
In 1902 the wife of that couple claims to have remarried in the Glasgow registry office, but I can find no record of that marriage. Then, in England in 1915 she marries the same man she claimed to have married in 1902 (and there is evidence they were together the entire time, children born with both names on the birth records, etc). This one is an actual marriage as it's listed in the GRO index.
Where/when did 'the wife' claim to have remarried in 1902, what doc. is this written on?
As you can't find the 1902 marriage & have yet to see the 1915 MC, I'm curious where the info. was found re the 1902 marriage?
Annie
Add...I think I've answered my own question having read over the post again...
I'm guessing the info. was given on the BCs of the children born to the 2nd 'husband' in Scotland prior to their actual 1915 marriage?
-
Where/when did 'the wife' claim to have remarried in 1902, what doc. is this written on?
As you can't find the 1902 marriage & have yet to see the 1915 MC, I'm curious where the info. was found re the 1902 marriage?
I mentioned it in a later post here https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=871198.msg7423824#msg7423824
-
frizzante,
Have you found the couple in the 1911 census and if so, what do they say about how long they have been married? Like you, I don't think they did actually marry in 1902, but I would guess that's what they told their friends and neighbours etc and so would have continued the same story in the census for the sake of appearances.
-
Also have you considered the Catholic Church dimension to the first marriage? It is possible that for some reason the wife was able to get the Archbishop of Glasgow to annul that marriage, and notwithstanding that she was still legally married according to civil law, this may have led the wife to believe that she wasn't committing adultery by the second marriage. By the Church's doctrine, a declaration or decree of nullity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_nullity) means that in the eyes of the Church, the marriage never occurred.
-
Did the first husband remain in Scotland? Wondering what his death cert stated about his marital status. Scottish death certs will show name of spouse(s) if known to the informant.
His death record lists him as married to her.
Also have you considered the Catholic Church dimension to the first marriage?
I have, but I wonder if there is any way to find out if there was an annulment. She was of legal age at the time of their marriage and they had several children.
-
Did the first husband remain in Scotland? Wondering what his death cert stated about his marital status. Scottish death certs will show name of spouse(s) if known to the informant.
His death record lists him as married to her.
This would make me more confident that there was not ever a divorce...
Monica
-
I've ordered it but it will take a week to arrive. On the 2nd husband's military record it lists her as wife, widow, married reg office 1902. There's a note next to it that says "to be married by English law at the first opportunity" and then the date of the 1915 marriage. So I believe she was never divorced, but I didn't want to jump to conclusions.
The reference to getting "married by English law" in the future suggests that they knew their married status was an irregular one (something common in Scotland), and one that might not be recognised south of the border.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/article/irregular-marriage-and-kirk-session-scotland
I wouldn't look too hard for any divorce.