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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Loppy01 on Monday 13 March 23 16:40 GMT (UK)
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I’m searching for info on my Grandfather Walter Welfare who was an “acting conductor in the Indian Army in 1943 and then a WO1 Royal Army Service Corps in 1943?
I know he was in Quetta in 1930/1931 as my own Mother was born during that time. What I don’t know is why he would have been in India during that time. Would he have enlisted into the Indian Army or been transferred from the British Army?
My understanding is that he was at some time in the Somerset Light Infantry but unsure over what period of time
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Welcome to Rootschat :D
I've found a brief transcript regarding Walter but it doesn't say a great deal.
Number: 3381199; Highest Rank: T/Conductor; Regiment: Indian Armoured Corps C; Indian Unattached List; Dev R; Date of commission: 6 Feb 1923; Date of release: died 9 Oct 1945
This was from Find My Past.
I can see that he is buried in the Rangoon War Cemetery in Myanmar. Husband of Lucy Mary Welfare, of Taunton, Somerset.
This could be where the suggestion that he was in the Somerset Light Infantry comes from.
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Lucy and Walter evidently had three children all born in India, two girls and a boy.
1936, 1932 and 1942 as per Family Search.
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Just found another record for a Walter Welfare with the same number of 3381199, so I assume this is your grandfather.
He was evidently a Member of the Order of the British Empire. (I later found this to have been awarded in 1943 as per the London Gazette dated 2 June 1943 Page 2429).
Born in London so this looks like his birth record from the GRO:-
WELFARE, WALTER FREDERICK HARRISS
GRO Reference: 1892 J Quarter in STGEORGE HANOVER SQUARE Volume 01A Page 441
His regiment is stated as being The Devonshire Regt, Royal Army Service Corps. So perhaps the Somerset Light Infantry may be wrong? Difficult to know for sure.
His CWCG citation gives his Secondary Unit, Regiment as attd. (attached) Indian Army Corps of Clerks
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You may already have this but this is his marriage record:-
Marriages Jun 1931
Vickery Lucy M Welfare Taunton 5c 669
Welfare Walter Vickery Taunton 5c 669
Must have gone to India fairly quickly after if their first child was born in 1932.
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Thank you that’s helpful. The strange thing is my Mum was born in February 1931 and in Quetta India so clearly before her parents married. I am aware she then lived there for 12 years before coming home with her Mum Lucy and 2 other siblings who had been born there. My Grandfather Walter never returned home as it seems he was in a road accident 6 weeks after the War ended and died and is buried in Burma (Myanmar)
It’s the period 1931 until the start of the War we are unsure of what he was doing in India. He was part of the V Force for a time gaining information and disrupting the Japanese forces.
Of course this is mostly here say as my Mum and her siblings are no longer with us.
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a possible explanation
Burma
The Allied Troops that went in to Burma were actually led by an Indian jungle warfare fighter - he was responsible for all the different hats each army wore so that in the jungle they could be recognised - hats clipped up to the left - to the right - berries of different colours etc etc - he STOPPED any soldiers wearing metal Helmets as when it rained the noise on their helmets could be heard from quite a distance away
English
Australian
New Zealanders
Gurkhas
Indian
Thai
Burmese
China
ALL fought in Burma for the Allies and all wore different Headware
in a roundabout way I am saying british Troops were in India getting special training for Jungle Warfare 1942-1945
...........
copied and Pasted
1942 -1945
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_campaign
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With great respect, garstonite, your 'possible explanation' really just serves to confuse. What on earth has all that got to do with Walter Welfare?
As others have established, much about Walter Welfare's life has been established: his birth, marriage, children and his date of death. The part which the OP seems to be most interested in is his military service. Unfortunately although there are records which are online (FindMyPast, CWGC India Office Records (IOR) at BL) some of these are confusing. To take one example, the IOR entry (IOR/L/MIL/14/17683) is quoted as saying that he was commissioned on 6 Feb 1923. This is either a mistranscription or it refers to some other type of commission. I suspect this may have been his enlistment date. The other error in the IOR entry is that it says he was attached to the Indian Armoured Corps C. This should read Indian Army Corps of Clerks.
From Casualty Report No.1895 (as at 27 Oct 1945) in WO 417/98 in which his death was reported, it is noted that he was attached to IACC HQ Lushai Bde and his death was due to accident. His full Army number was S/3381199 - the S signifying that he was in the Supply branch of the Royal Army Service Corps rather than the clerical branch where the prefix would have been SS. However he could have changed trade during his Army career.
It is clear to me that he first joined the Army in the Devonshire Regiment. This could have been around 1920 or 1921 when he was about 18. He then transferred to the Royal Army Service Corps at some point and would have been trained in his chosen trade. There is no indication of when he was first attached to the Indian Army, but I suggest this could have been around 1940 when it became clear to the War Office that there was an urgent need to expand the Indian Army in order to confront the Japanese threat to India. This would have required an influx of experienced British officers and soliders to assist in training and running the larger Indian Army.
Walter would have been in the Army for around 18 years in 1940 so he was probably already at least a Warrant Officer class 2. Exactly what area his skills were in is unclear from the records we have so far; he might possibly have been a senior supply specialist or a superintending clerk. Either of these specialisations would have made him eligible to be appointed as a Conductor* (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conductor_(military_appointment)), which is just a senior Warrant Officer Class1 not holding a Regimental Sergeant Major post. It would appear from the Casualty Report that he was serving on the staff of the HQ of the Lushai Bde. His award of the MBE in 1943 indicates that he was already a Warrant Officer at that stage because soldiers below that rank are normally awarded the BEM, not MBE.
I don't think anyone has mentioned that the whole picture will become infinitely clearer if the OP applies for his grandfather's service record from the MOD (details on how to do this here: https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records )
* more on conductors here (https://www.rlc-conductor.info/HomePage.htm). Walter Welfare is included in their Roll of Honour.
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Going by Girl Guide's info about a birth in 1892 he would have been 28 or 29 in 1920/21 so maybe a possibility that the reference to the Somerset Light Infantry was for service in WW1 and he chose to re-enlist later?
S_L
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I did think of suggesting to Loppy about applying for Walter's service record, but I thought I would wait until we had a response. Not had one so far.
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Going by Girl Guide's info about a birth in 1892 he would have been 28 or 29 in 1920/21 so maybe a possibility that the reference to the Somerset Light Infantry was for service in WW1 and he chose to re-enlist later?
S_L
I don't think that's the right birth. The CWGC site has his age at death as 42, meaning the date of birth of 1903 quoted elsewhere in the documents is correct. It is most unlikely that a soldier would have had his length of service extended to the age of 53 (based on the dob of 1892). Most soldiers signed on for a maximum of 22 years although this was sometimes extended in wartime.
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If he was born in 1903 then surely he would have been too young to be in the first world war. Only eleven in 1914 and 15 in 1918.
So if he did join the army I would have thought it would have been after the first world war.
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The only likely looking birth for a Walter Welfare around 1903 is this one:-
WELFARE, WALTER CHARLES SOLOMON
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in MEDWAY Volume 02A Page 718
The record I found stated a birth place of London and unless I'm wrong, Medway is Kent.
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If he was born in 1903 then surely he would have been too young to be in the first world war. Only eleven in 1914 and 15 in 1918.
So if he did join the army I would have thought it would have been after the first world war.
I wasn't aware that anyone had suggested that he fought in the First World War :)
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Thank you all for your very helpful information.I am absolutely brand new to this but very interested and particularly now I know how to apply for Grandad’s service records.
The records I have show him being baptised in St John Wapping Middlesex but on the 1911 Census his birth was St George’s of the East now known as Stepney.
As with most families there clearly some skeletons in the cupboard
I think as my Mum was definitely born in Quetta February 1931 which was 2 months before my Grandparents were married here in Somerset so wonder how or why my Grandmother was in India at that time. Again I’m not sure how I can find this information.
I have some old photo’s showing my Mum as a baby being cared for by a ayah and many of my Grandfather but none of him in uniform.
I also have some lovely old letters from my Mum to her Father written in 1943 when she was 12 and at that time the family address was: 46/2 Block, Napier Barracks, Karachi.
I believe my Grandfather was killed in a car accident just after the war ended and was always told he was driving to look at a tea plantation he was hoping to buy when the accident occurred
My next step is definitely to apply for his war records.
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It looks as though Lucy remarried after the death of Walter.
Marriages Sep 1950
Welfare Lucy M Chard Taunton 7c 613
Chard Frank Welfare Taunton 7c 613
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Welcome to Rootschat, Loppy!
Walter's death, and the births/baptisms* of all 3 children are available to order through the GRO, but as they are overseas records, they are paper copies only, so they would take several weeks to arrive, and it's a slightly different (but easy!) method of ordering.
If it is something that interests you, I can post the info you need to order them.
* Although they are listed as being birth records, sometimes they are baptisms. Often, there is very little info on them.
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That would be really helpful as was unsure how to get certificates from abroad. I cannot believe how helpful people on this site are :)
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Loppy I will be sending the info for ordering the overseas records via the private message system, as the names are potentially living folks, which cannot be put in this forum. You should get an email alert; or just check MY MESSAGES in the dark brown bar at the top of any forum page.
So far the best possible fit previously posted for a Walter Welfare born around London shows a birth date of 1892, but several army records are saying his birth was in 1903, London, and the nearest to 1903 birth that could be found was the wrong area (per the army).
There is one entry that Freebmd has for 1903 in Stepney that works, but there was no info, other than see "S/31". Fortunately the transcriber has put a note that it appears to be a late entry, and is in the GRO for 1931! The transcriber could see the mmn as Cowell, but the GRO is not listing that. (See below)
see here: https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?r=110049791:5576&d=bmd_1677511478
There is a marriage of William Welfare to Sarah Maria Cowell in Bethnal Green, in 1892:
Jun 1892
COWELL Sarah Maria Bethnal Green 1c 485
WELFARE William Bethnal Green 1c 485
I literally went around in circles for hours trying to peg this family down, and think I have figured it out. The problem in searching them is, Sarah Maria started going by the first name of Caroline at some point between daughter Caroline's baptism, and the 1901 census.
The children I could find are as follows - the early ones don't seem to have Birth registrations, most have baptisms (images on Anc*), but haven't posted them all here:
Caroline: 1892 - baptism gives dob as 05 Dec 1892 to parents William and Sarah Maria
Thomas: 1894 - dob from school records and various censuses. Possible death record states 25
Mar 1894 (baptism as an adult in 1907)
Harriet: 1885 - date from her marriage.
Frederick - WELFARE, FREDERICK WILLIAM COWELL
GRO Reference: 1900 J Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 01C Page 419
Walter - WELFARE, WALTER
GRO Reference: 1931 S Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 01C Page 434
WELFARE, ALICE LOUISA COWELL
GRO Reference: 1907 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 176
WELFARE, JOHN COWELL
GRO Reference: 1909 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 170
Baptism to parent William and Caroline, dob 08 Mar 1909
One would think that Sarah Maria passed away, and William remarried a Caroline, but the 1911 states they were married 18 years. The baptisms for the youngest children, with GRO mmn Cowell show parents as Caroline and William....
Sarah Maria appears to be born a few years before her mother, Catherine Dobinson, married Thomas Cowell, and..... Catherine also started using the name Caroline in the 1891 census.... ??? ???
If this is the right family, they are all easy to trace forwards and backwards with the exception of some of their birth registrations. I can't really explain why the mother and daughter both changed their first name to Caroline.... baffling!
And to make matters worse, the only GRO for a birth of Sarah Maria Dobinson, that fits (so far) has a mmn of Spickett. :'(
Apologies for the long confusing post! Hopefully someone can see if I deviated somewhere!
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Just come across these messages about Walter, who was my great uncle. I can confirm the birth certificate gives a date of the 1st June 1903.