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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: roadrunner465 on Wednesday 07 September 05 20:49 BST (UK)
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Is there anyone out there that can lookup service records for my three Gt Uncles Killed in WW2
I am unable to find my way around the archives and cannot find any records of either of them or any members of the family anywhere.Their only remaining family member is 87 and would like to know more about her brothers while she is still alive.
I really need your help
Thanks
Jones, Brynley Vincent Service No 1091299
Initials DR
Nationality UK
Gunner Royal Artillery
59 Medium Regt
Died 07/03/1945
Commonwealth War Dead
Jones, Dennis Robert
Initials D R
Nationality UK
Rank Flight Sergeant
Regiment Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Unit 215 Sqdn
Service No 1801507
Died 01/06/1944
Commonwealth War Dead
Jones, Ronald Thomas
Initials R.T
Nationality UK
Private
Gloucestershire Regiment
Unit lst Bn
Service No 5182291
Date of Death between 12/03/1942 and 17/03/1942
Commonwealth War Dead
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Hi,
The following addresses are from http://www.movinghere.org.uk/galleries/roots/intro/servicerecords/post1920.htm#
Service Records after 1920
Personal documents for men who left the services after 1920 are still with the Ministry of Defence. However, they will release some details to former servicemen and next of kin for a fee, currently £25. If you wish to have a search conducted please contact one of addresses below for an application form:
Army Personnel Centre
Historical Disclosures
Mailpoint 400
Kentigern House
65 Brown St
Glasgow
G2 8BX
Telephone: 0141 224 3515 or 0845 600 9663
Royal Navy
Ministry of Defence
CS[R]2A
Bourne Ave
Hayes
UB3 1RF
RAF
Ministry of Defence
P MAN 2b(1)
RAF PMC HQ PTC
RAF Innsworth
Gloucester
GL3 1EZ
Hope this helps.
Tabitha
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Roadrunner - you need to look at this site
http://www.firepower.org.uk/research/obtaining_service_records.cfm
If your relative were to write saying that she is the only surviving nok you may not have to pay the fee.
For RAF records see Casulguidis link on this board or alternatively this site
http://www.mod.uk/contacts/raf_records.htm
Ooops Tabitha beat me to it - but the links above will be useful
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Thanks I will give it a try, but the cost is rather much for three people, but I will try and get a letter. Have you any other ideas where I might find info re these three men?
Joy
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Hi Joy,
What sort of info are you trying to find other than service records?
Tabitha
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I am really trying to find dob, place of birth and any info about these boys. I cannot find them or the family anywhere on the Web. It is though the family did/does not exist. They were born in Herefordshire, but I cannot find any records of them or their sister.
Thanks
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Hi Roadrunner
Doesn't their sister know when/where they were born or have the details of her own birth ???
Casalguidi
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Yes, she has details of her own birth but the boys she is not sure. There is an age gap the boys around 1915 her age 1923. She was born in Herefordshire, but she is not sure about the boys. I have looked for her info but it does not exist. I cannot find her parents either, so not sure what the problem is.
Joy
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Hi Joy,
I've just checked the Commonwealth War Graves site which I imagine is where you found the details in your first post.
The only additional information available on that site is that Brynley was aged 30 at the time of his death. This may not be accurate but fits with the fact you think he was born around 1915.
On the entry for Ronald Thomas it says he is the son of Mrs C. Jones of Kingston-upon-Thames, Surrey. Does this name fit with the details you know?
Tabitha
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Thaks Chris, all the info fits, Mrs and Mrs Jones are now dead. The age seems right, but the boys do not seem to exist in the census or anywhere on the web. I am unable to find the parents or any members of the family. This is why the service records might help.
I am not sure where else to look.
Again thanks
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Hi Roadrunner
Have you checked the BMD indexes online http://www.1837online.com ???
From 1912 the indexes show the mother's maiden name so you could match that up if they were all full sister and brothers.
Is it likely that none of them were born prior to the 1901 census?
Casalguidi
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I have checked BMD, but there is nothing after 1910. The mothers maiden name was williams. Her name Clare abt 1893 Williams. She had a brother Aubrey, two sisters Roseline and Olive, but as far as I can see they are not there. The boys must have been born after 1914, but according to the info from the Commonwealth War Graves they were all born in 1915 which is not possible.
HelP
Joy
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Sorry,
I forgot I have not checked Bmd 1837 BMD online as it is a problem from this end.
Parents Clare Williams
Father Thomas Benjamin Demaid, but he changed his name to Jones I think before the boys were born. He was born around 1890. I have sent for a BC for a Demaid as for as I know it is on the way, but this will not help me find the family.
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Hi Joy,
I'm sorry, I've run out of ideas :(
Other than trawling through 1837online from about 1910 to 1945 to check possible births/marriages for the boys under every possible name variant, which would take quite a while (and of course the cost mounts up!) I can't see any other way of finding out about the boys.
The only other option I can think of is if their sister is willing to write a letter with you to request access to their service records and again for all three that's going to be quite expensive.
Good luck
Tabitha :)
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Thanks, I will get a letter from the sister and also will be in the UK next year so will go to Kew myself. Is this the best place to look up records?
I will crack this one as I do not let things defeat me.
Joy
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Hi Joy
No, you can't look them up yourself I'm afraid as these records are not at Kew, they are still with the Ministry of Defence - address as in Tabitha's post above or the link below:
http://www.army.mod.uk/contacts/divisions/records.htm
Casalguidi
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joy,the info about them being all born in 1915 could be correct, TRIPLETS,mack
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Joy if you are going to be in London you might like to visit the Family Records Centre, heres a link to their website, at least there you will have access to BMD registers
http://www.familyrecords.gov.uk/frc/default.htm
as Casulguidi says Kew does not have personal records from WW2, could you not send for one record at a time, you don't have to get them all at once....
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Hi Joy,
To visit the Uk and look up BMD records yourself have a look at The Family Records Centre's website http://www.familyrecords.gov.uk/frc/default.htm
There's advice there on where they are and how to get the most out of your visit etc.
Cheers
Tabitha
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Thanks, I know about military records. I shall write a letter for the sister, have her sign it and see if she can get this records for free as she is disabled and on a pension. I meant the records for the rest of the family. They must be somewhere.
Joy
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Sorry, I must've had a brainstorm (one of many!) this morning......my earlier post is completely out of sequence and repeating what everyone has already said :-[
Tabitha
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joy,the info about them being all born in 1915 could be correct, TRIPLETS,mack
No, they were not triplets all were born at different times and also were killed at different times.
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Hi Joy,
I'm sorry, I've run out of ideas :(
Other than trawling through 1837online from about 1910 to 1945 to check possible births/marriages for the boys under every possible name variant, which would take quite a while (and of course the cost mounts up!) I can't see any other way of finding out about the boys.
The only other option I can think of is if their sister is willing to write a letter with you to request access to their service records and again for all three that's going to be quite expensive.
Is there anyway I can download forms for service records. I do not see any place on the websites to do so.
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Hi Joy
There are no forms online. You need to write to the following address (or you could phone them first)
Officers or Soldiers whose regular or reserve service ended between 1921 and 1997
Army Personnel Centre
HQ Secretariat
Historical Disclosures
Mail Point 400
Kentigern House
65 Brown Street
Glasgow
G2 8EX
Tel: 0845 600 9663, option 3
They may need require proof of next of kinship which in your case may be difficult but you can always try.
Casalguidi
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Thanks,
phoning is out of the question because of the time difference between the US and there. I will try and get my sister to call, but I know what Gov places are like.
Where/how do I look in the archives for this type of info? I find the archives mind bloggling and I give up because i never get anywhere.
Joy
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I don't think you'll find any WW2 servicemen's records in the archives as they are still held by the MOD and are obtainable via the addresses given.
There is generally a 75 year disclosure period for these records which is why they are not in the public domain and why next of kin details are required.
Check the National Archives website which will tell you what they hold relating to WW2.
Tabitha
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Thank
no problem about next of kin id I can get that easily.
I have sent an email to the UK veterans organization and asked them for help.
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There is just one other thing - you may need copies of death certificates for the men you are looking for...
do get your sister to phone Historic Disclosures - I did and they were very helpful, I was not a direct nok for the chap I was looking for, I explained a very complicated history and they still helped me.
You won't find any personal information anywhere on your chaps except in their Military Records -
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Thanks for your email, but if we had the death certs it would be easier. We have no idea really when they were killed, or the info so how can we get the death cert.
What is the phone No for Historic Disclosures? Do they have an email address. As I said my sister is also elderly and unwell, so I want to do all I can before then.
We have NO PAPERWORK AT ALL ON THE BOYS, BIRTH, DEATH OR ANY CERTIFICATES. I CANNOT FIND ANY OF THE FAMILY ON THE WEB OR ANYWHERE.
I am going crazy here, but will not let this defeat me.
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If the three boys in your first post are the fellows you suspect of being your relatives it seems you have a good start.
It seems you now need to find a researcher willing to look at the GRO Registers for the War Dead at the FRC in London. I know they have them for the Army - armed with the GRO Ref No's you will be able to order Death certs.
Here is a link to a Rootschat member who is also a professional researcher
www.nightbirds.demon.co.uk
try an e.mail to her and see if she can help you. Unfortunately Family History does not come cheap so you must be prepared to open your piggy bank :)
Suey
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Sue
thanks fror your info, The boys are really relatives. There is no way that I can afford to pay anyone to research for me. I will do the research next year when I come to the UK, but do I need to contact historical disclosures first.
How? Where
Thanks for your kindness.
Joy
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ooooh! I think I've found one for you!!
GRO war deaths army other ranks 1939-1948 at 1837online:
Brynley V. JONES Gnr. 1091299 R.A. 1945 vol. 14 page 200
(Name, rank, number, unit, year, volume, page.) Hope that'll help.
Tabitha
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Got another....
Ronald T. JONES Pte. 5182291 Glos R. 1942 vol 11 pg 284
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Last but not least...
Dennis R. JONES F/Sgt. 1801507 215 Sqn 1944 vol 8 pg 228
Certificates can be ordered at:
General Register Office
PO Box 2
Southport
Merseyside
PR8 2JD
certificate.services@ons.gov.uk
Tel 0845 603 7788 or (international) +44 845 603 7788
Fax 01704 550013 or (international) +44 1704 550013
Opening hours
Monday to Friday - 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. GMT
Saturday - 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. GMT
Tabitha :)
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Joy, historical disclosures is the address/telephone number posted earlier on in this topic:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,87080.msg371108.html#msg371108
Casalguidi
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Thank you all so much, this really helps. I like to do things for people who have no-one to take care of them.
This will save me so much time.
Thanks for your kindness.
Joy
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Tabitha
Again thank you, would these reference be for Birth Certificates? I know a rather silly question, but I have downloaded the forms and wanted to make sure they were the correct ones
Joy
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Hi Joy,
No the references are for their deaths. The references are only applicable to the GRO so using the details I gave you on the three separate posts will enable you to order these men's death certificates from the address / telephone number included my the last post.
Applying to the GRO for the certificates you will probably need to give the full entry ie name, rank, number, unit, year. volume and page.
Tabitha :)
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Well done Tabitha, a smiley face :) and a gold star for you tonight.
I kind of knew that somehow a Rootschatter would help out with this one.
Get ordering Joy and please let us all know how you get on ;D ;D.
Good luck
Suey
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Again thank you for all your effort. With this miracle. I might be able to find the rest of the family, especially Clare Williams from Wales the mother of the lady who is thrilled.
I will send for the certs but it takes time from this side of the world and many emails, because many times the GRO is not always on the ball.
Thanks for all your effort.
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Thanks Suey....a smilie and a gold star...I won't know what to do with myself 8)
On a serious note, I think it's what most of us are here for...to help each other out on our travels through our family history! I've had loads of help from kind hearted Rootschatters and it's a great feeling to be able to give something back ;D
Tabitha :)
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Again thanks, the Gold Star and other goodies are well deserved. I have downloaded the death certs and as soon as I catch up with my teaching load they will be off in the mail.
All I need now is to find the rest of the family which will take a mircacle it itself.
Have a great day.
Joy
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Hopefully the death certs will give you some more clues Joy! Good luck with your search :)
Tabitha
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Thanks, yes I am sure they will
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Hi
If you go to http://www.britishwargraves.org.uk/ and search through 'Jones' (a lot of them of course) you will find at least two of yours with memorials listed and photos available. I hadn't time to see if Dennis was there.
Ray
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Thanks for the info, I must be looking in the wrong place because I cannot find any of the boys.
I will try again
Joy
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Ray, I found Brynley, Ronald, but no Dennis. I went through all of them. I am really touched by this, because most of my life I never knew what happened to these men, and now there is some closure to the worry.
Again thanks
Joy From ( Oregon)
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Joy,
Email them with all details and they will endeavour to find his memorial and send you a pic., given time.
Ray (One of the volunteer picture takers)
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Here's a new one,
Go here http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/whats-new.asp
for seaman's records 1853-1923
Found a lot of my ancestors that I did'nt know were in the navy.
joboy
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Service Info for Dennis V.Jones
Name: Jones, Dennis Robert.
Nationality: United Kingdom.
Rank: Flight Sergeant.
Regiment: RAFVR.
Unit Text: 215 Sqdn.
Date of Death: 01/06/1944.
Service No: 1801507.
Grave/Memorial Reference: Column 434 Singapore Memorial.
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Hi,
Just came across this thread while browsing the armed forces board.
Just wanted to thank Ray and Tabitha for the info, i have contacted the site and requested a photo of my grandads brothers headstone in Krakow(that wwill be fantastic if they can get one as my great auntie is alive and knew nothing about him til i found him on CWGC site)
And i was unaware that you could get death certs for POW's , so thanks to Tabitha i have now ordered his death cert.
Thank you both again.
Kev ;D
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Always pleased to help Kev .....even if it was inadvertently ;D
Tabitha
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I agree the time and effort for the Roots Web people to answer questions is mind boggling. I appreciate your opening doors for me to people who I thought were lost forever.
Again thanks
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Hi Joy,
I haven't had time to read through all the replies so I don't know if anyone has suggested this for you:-
You might be able to contact the various regiments to find out if they have an honour roll or more details in their archives about these men.
My Gt Uncle was in the Durham Light Infantry and was killed in France. I wish we'd known that before I came back to Australia because we visited the Durham Cathedral, not knowing at the time that our war hero was on the honour roll in the Durham Cathedral. So it really might be worth searching for these Regiment archives details.
Also I pass on this suggestion which may help you too:-
Another source may be to try the National Army Museum, Chelsea, London. They will hold the estate records for deceased Army personnel.
http://www.national-army-museum.ac.uk/pages/information.html
You can find their email address on that page, if you email them tell them as much as you can as they have numerous estate records to search.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Candy
Is there anyone out there that can lookup service records for my three Gt Uncles Killed in WW2
I am unable to find my way around the archives and cannot find any records of either of them or any members of the family anywhere.Their only remaining family member is 87 and would like to know more about her brothers while she is still alive.
I really need your help
Thanks
Jones, Brynley Vincent Service No 1091299
Initials DR
Nationality UK
Gunner Royal Artillery
59 Medium Regt
Died 07/03/1945
Commonwealth War Dead
Jones, Dennis Robert
Initials D R
Nationality UK
Rank Flight Sergeant
Regiment Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Unit 215 Sqdn
Service No 1801507
Died 01/06/1944
Commonwealth War Dead
Jones, Ronald Thomas
Initials R.T
Nationality UK
Private
Gloucestershire Regiment
Unit lst Bn
Service No 5182291
Date of Death between 12/03/1942 and 17/03/1942
Commonwealth War Dead
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Thank you candy. Someone found the death info for me and I will send for the Certs. but your info is good. Next year when i visit England I shall do some real investigating.
Thanks for taking time.
Joy
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Hi Joy,
Just had a thought... the younger brother(s) might have been too young to enlist and maybe he/they put his age up? Maybe when they put their age(s) up to get enlisted they pretended they were triplets?
Perhaps the death certificates will solve that mystery.
Please do let us know the outcome!
Regards,
Candy
joy,the info about them being all born in 1915 could be correct, TRIPLETS,mack
No, they were not triplets all were born at different times and also were killed at different times.
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Candy
no the boys were not Triplets, Ronald the youngest was 26 years old so not too young. Once I get the death Certs I should know more.
More importantly I need to find Clare Williams 1893
and Thomas B Demaid or Jones. I shall send for the Wedding Cert that someone found. It might be too late for them 1914 but who knows.
Again thanks for your effort.
Joy
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Candy
I wanted you to know that I received the death Certs of the Jones boys today. All were killed in the war and we did not have closure.
thank for all your help
Joy
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Hi Joy,
Thank you for the message. I hope the certificates help with some information about their parents.
It is so sad that many young lives are lost in wars. Can you ask a priest/minister in your local area if he can do a personal memorial service so you & the elderly sister can have closure?
Sorry I wasn't able to help you more.
Regards,
Candy
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You helped me a great deal. I know now that the father was Thomas B Jones born 1888 his father Thomas Jones abt 1864
Their mother Clare Williams born 1893
Her Father Richard Williams. born abt 1864 wales.
I have the Wedding cert of the parents and now I am looking for their birh cert.
I will have a memorial service for the boys next year when i go home. I have posted their death certs of Lost Comrades Web with their details and medals.
So I/we have come a long way
I would not have made it this far without you
again thanks
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Tabitha
I just wanted you to know that the death certs came today for the boys. I at least know their birth dates and approx date and place of death. I have posted this info along with their death certs and medals on the Lost Comrades website and also several others. I actually now have a picture of the two boys. Someone sent me the info for their parents or at least it looked like it and today it came as well so I am way ahead then I was a week ago.
Thanks for spending time
Joy
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Joy,
Glad you are making progress and that you will have a memorial service later.
I think a few other folk helped you more than I did, so I can't take all the credit.
Have you searched this site for birth registrations of the parents and grandparents?
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/
Not all of Britain is on it yet but you might be lucky and find what you need. It only starts from the 1837 registration of events up until some more recent years. Like all records they can be transcribed incorrectly so may need confirmation.
Regards,
Candy
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Thanks for your email. I thanked all those that helped me.
Yes, I checked with BMD but no luck yet, but I shall not give up
Thanks
Joy
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Hi Joy,
Thanks for letting us all know you've received the death certificates for the Jones boys and their parents marriage certificate.
Good luck with the rest of you research.
Tabitha :)
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Yes! Thanks for keeping us up to date,
Best wishes and good luck for further research - you know where we are if you need us :D
Suey
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Sue
thanks for your email. I have placed the death certs of the boys along with pictures of their medals on several web sites, so that I know they will not be forgotten.
I found pictures of the graves on this site.
http://www.britishwargraves.org.uk/
Richard has also put a picture of the boys along with other info.
So now I am looking for the parents info.
Again thanks
Joy