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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: greyhobbes02 on Tuesday 21 February 23 16:51 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I'm brand new so am not too sure what I am doing, so apologies for any mistakes. I have been doing quite a lot of family history lately, largely on Find My Past but also on Ancestry.
I've hit a brick wall with my great-great-grandfather Henry Williams, on my mum's side.
I have him on the 1901 and 1911 censuses as born in Birmingham in 1849 but in 1891 it says he was from Shrewsbury?! He is down as a labourer but also a lodging house keeper(as his wife Rebecca already had a lodging house when they got married in 1884) and a coal miner at one point so no specific trade. On the marriage certificate he has labeled his father as Thomas Williams, a labourer. I assume he was still alive in 1884 as it does not say deceased but of course I can't be certain.
I also have no idea when he died. His past child to be married was in March 1915 and he is not down as deceased so I assume he is still alive at that point. His wife died in 1919 and their son John Albert (my ) is living at the lodging house in 1921 but Henry is nowhere to be found. He is also not with any of his kids or stepkids and no Henry Williams in the surrounding area fits the bill, even with a 20 mile radius. I assume he died between 1915 and 1921 but none of the death records really fit and I have no way to verify them anyway.
I have looked at baptisms and censuses around Birmingham and Shrewsbury but there are so many possibilities and I have no way to distinguish between them.
Does anybody have ANY idea where I can go from here??
(Sorry for the really long message!)
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Welcome to Rootschat.
Henry WILLIAMS is a common name so it's no wonder you are having difficulty.
You cannot rely on a Father's being alive or deceased on marriage certificates, it's not a question that was required to be asked, simply the name of the father. Sometimes where one or other of the couple was illegitimate they may name a relative or a fictitious person, so it pays to keep that in mind.
Who were the witnesses at the marriage, could one of them be a relative?
You say his wife died in 1919, do you have her death certificate? That should say if she was married or widowed, that would help narrow down William’s death.
Have you found any likely Williams the about right age in Birmingham or Shrewsbury in the earlier census, I imagine there could be several? I solved a similar problem with a common name by researching others with the same name and birth place until I could discount them with certainty, the only one left was the one I wanted.
Hopefully you will get some other more helpful suggestions from other Rootschatters.
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Well, you could try to track him back one census at a time; but I might be minded to go to 1851 next when we believe he should be 2 years old.
He will probably still be in his birth town then ... so concentrate on the Birmingham and Shrewsbury ones.
It CAN be a bit of a chore, but sometimes there's nothing for it but to trawl through a mountain of "hits" and weed them out one by one ... wrong mother's name, wrong father's occupation, etc.
Some of them you might have to look at the family unit and try to trace that family unit forward. Does it go in teh right direction or a wrong one/
Critically, don't make the mistake of discarding your notes on teh ones that you have discounted. Keep them safe somewhere ... you might need them in future, to justify a decision or cross refer a point.
I have to say, though, you've drawn a pretty tough one for so early in your researching career ...
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If I am looking at the correct censuses, Henry and Rebecca are living at 47 Princess Street, Chester.
It would appear that Rebecca was born Taylor, and married a Thomas Davies before marrying Henry Williams.
Note the cover address on the 1911 census form sent to them: it is being sent to Mr. H. Williams Jr. As he said his father was a Thomas, it is possible Henry is actually a Thomas Henry, and didn't use his real first name. Perhaps look for a death/burial under Thomas Henry Williams. *sigh* It's Henry's son (at 45 Princess Street that I was looking at).
The 1911 also states to list the number of living and dead children of THIS marriage, but they slipped up here, and it appears Rebecca listed all of her children from both marriages. However, if you can sort out which ones died, and find out where they are buried, with any luck Henry is buried nearby.
Just for reference:
In 1891, they have these children with them:
Henry age 6
John age 3
Rebecca age 1
Thomas Davies (stepson), age 16
James Davies (stepson) age 14
Phoebe Davies (stepdaur) age 10
In 1901, Henry has these children with him at 45 Princess St:
Rebecca age 12
Flora age 8
Grandson William Wilson, age 6
Rebecca is at 47 Princess St with children:
William Davies age 27
Thomas Davies age 25
James Davies age 23
Henry Williams age 16
John Williams age 14
In 1911, they have these children with them:
Jack Williams, age 24 (I assume this is John)
Rebecca Williams age 21
Florence Williams age 18
Edit: Welcome to Rootschat!! :)
Edit again! Fixed the 1901 entries, thanks to Dundee for the corrections! :)
And again! Struck out the 1911 paragraph; thanks to Heywood for catching that. :)
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In 1901, they have these children with them:
William Davies age 27
Thomas Davies age 25
James Davies age 23
Henry Williams age 16
John Williams age 14
In 1911, they have these children with them:
Jack Williams, age 24 (I assume this is John)
Rebecca Williams age 21
Florence Williams age 18
Just for info, in 1901 Henry (Harry) is at number 45 with daughters Rebecca and Florence (Flora) and his wife is at the lodging house at number 47.
Debra :)
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Just for info, in 1901 Henry (Harry) is at number 45 with daughters Rebecca and Florence (Flora) and his wife is at the lodging house at number 47.
Debra :)
Thank you! I have corrected it. I mainly posted it to put all the children together, as I always end up with a zillion tabs open when hunting them all down. :)
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The grandchild on the 1901 census, William Wilson age 6, is baffling me.
Was Henry previously married before he was with Rebecca?
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The grandchild on the 1901 census, William Wilson age 6, is baffling me.
Was Henry previously married before he was with Rebecca?
In 1901 he should be 51 or 52 if the date of birth of 1849 is correct (it need not be)! So when William was born he was 45 or 46. This gives him time to have become a grandfather ... but only just. Which is REALLY good news as long as everything is above board and in the open (which it need not be ... oh the joys of FH!)
Always start by assuming that everything is as it is said to be, but be prepared to conclude that it is not when the evidence against it mounts to a critical point. But assume it to be so for now. This is REALLY helpful because it will help you to narrow down the date range for your searches for the marriages.
Some really important hints for a beginner:
Marriages registered at the GRO before a certain date are indexed in such a way that you are given a choice of possible people that they married (the marriages are indexed in little batches of male names and female names, but nobody thought to index which one married who). You don't find out the correct bride until you order the certificate which can be frustrating (and expensive). Sometimes it's fine because you already know the bride's first name and there's only one pssible bride with this first name. But sometimes there are two or three, which can be a real pain. There are ways round this.
One way is to look for the marriage in the parish registers as well. This will give you only one identity for the bride. The problem is that when they first started digitising the parish records they stopped at 1837 "because GRO can take over from there". This is slowly being corrected ... but there's a bulk of material and it takes time, so you cannot be certain that your marriage can be found online in BOTH sources.
Another way is to look for the registration of the births of any children. Then you get the mother's maiden name and can go back and work out which is the correct bride. When I started in FH you had ot order the certificate to find the bride's maiden name, but now it's available in the GRO index so you just have to find the right registration for the child and then you can go back and decide which is the correct bride for your man.
Sometimes, however, you get the mother's maiden name and it doesn't match ANY of the possible brides. What then? Well, it may be that you're not looking at the correct marriage, or it may be that the bride was previously married, or it might be that they never actually married at all, they just started living together and the woman adopted the man's name. I have had instances of all three situations in my research.
Advice to beginner in this situation:
I'd focus on this grandson for a bit. It's an unhelpful name, to be sure ... but if his place of birth and age are both accurately stated (they might not be!) then you might find that there are only one or two possible candidates. If more than one, have a look for infant deaths the following year. You might be able to "kill off" all but one of them. Then do a sibling search ... other births in the same place with the same mother's maiden name in the previous 10 years. See if you can build up a picture of the "family unit" and hope to find one (or more) born prior to the 1891 census. If so, look for them in the 1891 census and see if you can pick up one or both parents. Then you can start looking for the evidence of how they fit in, which will help you to narrow everything down for your searches on the main family line, or be certain that you have identified the correct family group in censuses etc.
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The grandchild on the 1901 census, William Wilson age 6, is baffling me.
On the 1901 transcription on Anc this correction has been added
"He is the son, born March 1894, of Rebecca Williams' dead daughter, Maria, and son-in-law Allan Keeble whose name was Welton. His christening on 22/6/1899 gave as address 47 Princess St/lodging house keeper."
Kay
Added - I think this could be the family in 1891 who married in Chester in 1886 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4S4J-16Z
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Thanks Kaye.... I was hoping Grandpa Henry Williams had a prior family, giving more to work with.
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This took a bit of a sad twist... not that helps the OP in any way...
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/10778406/william-welton
In the Soldier's List of Effects, it names him as Unwin, Albert alias Welton, William. The sole legatee to claim his things was Frederick Z. Welton, brother.
Frederick Zachariah Welton was in an orphanage in 1901 age 11, and listed under him, Allan K Welton, age 13, both born in Chester, but the orphanage was in Erdington, Warwickshire; Sir Josiah Masons Orphanage.
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If I am looking at the correct censuses, Henry and Rebecca are living at 47 Princess Street, Chester.
Note the cover address on the 1911 census form sent to them: it is being sent to Mr. H. Williams Jr. As he said his father was a Thomas, it is possible Henry is actually a Thomas Henry, and didn't use his real first name. Perhaps look for a death/burial under Thomas Henry Williams.
The cover for Mr H Williams jnr is the house next door not Henry and Rebecca’s house.
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The cover for Mr H Williams jnr is the house next door not Henry and Rebecca’s house.
Fixed, and thanks for catching that, Heywood.
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I thought initially, perhaps he was being classed as ‘the owner’ but then further reading revealed all. ;)
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Again does not help with original query but building a picture.
William (WILSON) in 1901 census is William Welton in 1911 census.
WELTON, WILLIAM EDMUND mmn TAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1894 M Quarter in CHESTER Volume 08A Page 446
Believe him to be the son of Allan Keeble Welton (1870-1895) and Maria Taylor. They had 2 other sons Allan K in 1887 and Frederick Z in 1889.
Maria Welton nee' Taylor I believe to be the illegitimate daughter of Rebecca Williams/Davies nee'Taylor
TAYLOR, MARIA - no mmn
GRO Reference: 1870 J Quarter in CHESTER Volume 08A Page 397
Rebecca and Maria appear at the home of her parents Thomas and Catherine in 1871 census
ref
Piece: 3731
Folio: 47
Page number: 28
John
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1906 Cheshire directory has
Hy. Williams, registered lodging house at 45 & 47 Princess Street (Chester streets)
1914
Hy. Williams, registered lodging house at 45 Princess Street (Chester streets)
Henry Williams, reg. lodging house, 47 Princess Street (Chester commercial)
1918, Spring 1919 electorals
Henry + Isabel Williams at 45 Princess Street (that will be junior and his wife)
John Williams at 47 Princess Street
Rebecca Williams nearby at 43 Linenhall Street on those same registers (qualification "O")
Is that her?
Rebecca Williams buried 17 April 1919 on Deceased Online
Rebecca Williams on Find a Grave, at Overleigh Cemetery
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/247444195/rebecca-williams
Ancestry tree says she died at the Royal Infirmary, Chester, cause strangulated umbilical hernia and post-operative shock.
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Info only re Rebecca.
Born 13.11.1850
BIDWARDS, REBECCA BIDWARDS
GRO Reference: 1850 D Quarter in GREAT BOUGHTON Volume 19 Page 52
Marriage of parents 31.12.1850 after her birth.
Marriages Dec 1850
Keigin Catherine G Boughton 19 60
Taylor Thomas G Boughton 19 60
Birth of siblings as per 1861 census
TAYLOR, THOMAS KEGGIN
GRO Reference: 1853 S Quarter in GREAT BOUGHTON Volume 08A Page 326
TAYLOR, JAMES BEDWARD
GRO Reference: 1855 J Quarter in GREAT BOUGHTON Volume 08A Page 376
John
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Hi peeps, sorry I've not already responded. Thank you ever so much for all the responses, I'm really grateful! Yes, you are right, they are from Chester, I'm surprised you were able to find them so very easily but I suppose they stand out.
I was going to mention about Henry Williams Junior but that's already been pointed out and also William Welton, but again people have already done lots of research on him too. I'm honestly speechless at how much you've been able to find out with not that much to go on. How on earth do you find it all?!
I did know who his parents were and that he had two brothers but I did not know he'd died in the war, how very sad, and that his brothers were in an orphanage in Warwickshire. Going to go and add that to my family tree.
Thank you very much!!
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One of William Welton's brothers, Allan, didn't make it out of the war either. He was in the Royal Navy.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56023120/allen-keeble-welton
On another note, Rebecca was buried in Grave P8822 at Overleigh Cemetery, along with her daughter Maria. The attached is all the people in that grave; you will probably recognize most of the names.
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One of William Welton's brothers, Allan, didn't make it out of the war either. He was in the Royal Navy.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56023120/allen-keeble-welton
On another note, Rebecca was buried in Grave P8822 at Overleigh Cemetery, along with her daughter Maria. The attached is all the people in that grave; you will probably recognize most of the names.
Re bbart's list of people buried. The 2 Keegans, Edward had a twin John are/were baptised 13/1/1835, parents John and Catherine Keegan, prior to her marriage to Thomas Taylor in 1850.They appear on the 1841 census with surname Kiggin in the household of Mary Bedward.
Mary Bedward 40 France
Florentina 20 France ( Catherine)
Josephine 20 France
Edward Kiggin 6
John Kiggin 6
Mary Kiggin 2
They appear again with Mary Bedward in 1851 census with surname Regan.
John
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I am confused as why Alexina Bigham is in the list. The clip I posted was from the database of the Overleigh Cemetery, but the Findagrave says she is in Plot 8 , and from the photo's, I don't see how anyone else could fit in there?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/173212945/alexina-bigham
EDIT Ignore Alexina; I have no idea of why she showed in the original clip, but looking her up as an individual, she is in plot 8, and not with the others.
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What has happened to the online Overleigh Cemetery database? It hasn't been working for me.
If the OP could get back with any further details from the marriage certificate, and to tell us whether they have Rebecca's death certificate, it would be good.
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What has happened to the online Overleigh Cemetery database? It hasn't been working for me.
The original links to it don't seem to work; I dug through Google and finally found one that works:
https://www.cheshirearchives.org.uk/what-we-hold/databases-search.aspx
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The original links to it don't seem to work; I dug through Google and finally found one that works:
https://www.cheshirearchives.org.uk/what-we-hold/databases-search.aspx
For anyone trying to use the above database, and finding themselves scrolling to the end of time trying to get to a name, it is not overly obvious to some that you can actually type a name, then click on it in the list to make it active.
I highly recommend watching the youtube video on how to use it. Once you get the hang of it, searching is much easier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiiXmtR9e0U
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I'm still not getting it :( but thanks bbart.
Will keep an eye on it.
Frustrating that we can't pin Henry down before his marriage, nor even find his death!
Jon
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I'm still not getting it :( but thanks bbart.
Do you mean the link doesn't work for you, or you can't figure out how to use it (it IS a steep learning curve.... it took me hours!)
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I'm still not getting it :( but thanks bbart.
Will keep an eye on it.
Frustrating that we can't pin Henry down before his marriage, nor even find his death!
Jon
Could I throw this guy into the mix, even to only dismiss. I cannot follow him after 1851 census in Birmingham. Believe mother Mary Eliza died 1852 Gloucester, and father Thomas went on to marry possibly twice afterwards but no sign of George/Henry with his father in future census. 1st marriage in 1852 to a Sarah Wall very shortly after Mary Eliza died.
WILLIAMS, GEORGE HENRY mmn TAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1848 D Quarter in PLYMOUTH Volume 09 Page 383
1851 census.
Piece: 2051
Folio: 128
Page Number: 23
Thomas Williams 42
Mary E Williams 32
Thomas C Williams 14
John Rd Williams 8
Emma Williams 6
Hy Williams 2 Plymouth.
John
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Do you mean the link doesn't work for you, or you can't figure out how to use it (it IS a steep learning curve.... it took me hours!)
Hi
I've finally got it. It's rather awkward and clumsy, yes, it certainly takes quite a while to get the hang of it.
Still, a lot better than no database!
Thank you for finding it and sharing it with us.
Jon
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Could I throw this guy into the mix
Hi
Worth a shout.
This might be him
1861 census
piece 403 folio 148 page 17
Greenwich Hospital Schools
George Heny Williams, 12, Scholar, born Devon Plymouth
Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services
George Henry Williams
Official Number 42374
Place of Birth Plymouth, Devon
Date of Birth 25 September 1848
Ref ADM 188/8/42374
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6581606
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Hi, sorry I've not given any more details. I know I've already said this and I'm sorry if you think I'm going on but I'm just overwhelmed and flattered at all the support I've received with this and how much research everyone's been doing. So thank you!!
Anyway, I've attached a photograph of the marriage certificate. The witnesses are Catherine Head and John William Wells. I did search them but only found that John William Wells was another lodger in the area and later owned his own lodging house so I assume they were just friends...?
Re death certificate, a cousin does have a copy and I've emailed her asking for it so hopefully I can tell you more soon.
Just a note, on the marriage record, their ages don't really seem to add up, Henry is supposedly 33 and Rebecca is 32. However, through the same cousin, I know Rebecca was born 13 Nov 1850 so would have been 33.
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I one year age discrepancy is nothing to worry about ... absolutely nothing.
Well all find them all over the place, and often much wider than that. We have people who only age 5 years from one census to the next ... then 3 years to the one after that ... and then miraculously get YOUNGER.
It's important to remember that the obsessive accuracy with which we keep track of our age nowadays is only due to modern legislation on things like state pensions, television licences, bus passes and school leaving ages which simply didn't exist back in those days.
It was all much more rough and ready then ...