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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: ghallen on Friday 17 February 23 11:51 GMT (UK)
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I've come across a few people in my tree with a blank "Father" section of their birth certificate and I was wondering if any of you had had a similar situation and had some success in finding the father?
If so, would you be able to share your steps to success or any resources that might possibly help a person find unknown fathers?
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Partly it will depend how far back you are looking. I knew there was an unknown grandparent in my line and took a DNA test. It showed the line, but unfortunately for me there were five sons so I am trying to trace their whereabouts at the time of conception.
Sometimes a middle name will give a clue.
Patience and luck do come into it.
Good luck.
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I would agree with Nanna52.
Illegitimate children were often given the father's surname as a middle name
So with a DNA test a father might be traceable by marrying up one with the other.
The only other source are the Quarter session records which might reveal an
illegitimacy order against the father.
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Also don't discount the people who are in plain sight: co-habitees at census time and later husbands. It may be that the birth mother may already be married but separated from her husband and so she isn't in a position to marry the baby's father to legitimise the birth. They then marry later when they can. I've seen this within my extended family and the reason I can be sure who the real father was is because when the child later died aged about 4 the father's surname was included on the death certificate. In another case I have come across, which involved both bigamy and desertion, the only way in which I could prove the paternity of a particular child was when the father acknowledged the child was his in his will.
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My paternal grandmother had three illegitimate children. She was living with her grandmother and ( I think) half brother during this period. All the birth certificates are bereft of a father but my father and his sister name the uncle as their father on their marriage certificates. She did eventually marry a matelot and left the children with the witnesses to her marriage. Aren't families complicated?
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In Scotland, you could check the minutes of the kirk session. They often give details of fathers. Also check the person's marriage and death certificates to see if their father is given there. If the mother pursued the father for maintenance, there might be a court record. The child might also be found staying with members of the father's family in a census.
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I have a birth registered in January 1864 of my 2xgreat gran but under her mother's name. No father listed. The very likely father had just lost his long dying wife. They moved to London and married there. The baby was then baptised in November 1864 as the daughter of both people.
I think illegitimate births rarely had a fathers name until 1875.
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In Scotland, from the start of statutory registration in 1855, if parents weren't married, the father's name could not be entered on a birth certificate unless he was present when the birth was registered. I suppose the reason was to prevent innocent men being named. The result is that, even when the father acknowledged the child and the child would take his surname, if he were not able to be present at the registration, the child had to be registered under the mother's surname with no mention of him (the father).
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The parish Overseers did their best to name the father of an illegitimate child in order to pursue him for maintenance of the child. If they could not find him, then the parish would have to pay. You may find information in the Overseers' Reports and Accounts. This particular reference is for the Yorkshire town of Sowerby https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/N13718838 but you may find others for the area you are looking at, alternatively contact the local Record Office, who should have these records.
A helpful person found the name stated as father of my illegitimate gt-gt-gt-grandmother (1806) in the BVRI (British Isles Vital Records Index) records for me many years ago, but I'm not sure how to get this now, as it appears to be available only on a CD. Perhaps another helpful person will be able to find more information for you.
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I have occasionally found the fathers name on the baptismal record in remarks by the vicar.
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The only other source are the Quarter session records which might reveal an
illegitimacy order against the father.
And sometimes these are mentioned in newspapers, if for example they weren't being paid etc.
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I think illegitimate births rarely had a fathers name until 1875.
More likely the other way around, as after 1874 the father (if not married to the mother) could not be named on a birth certificate unless he was also present at the registration.
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I think illegitimate births rarely had a fathers name until 1875.
More likely the other way around, as after 1874 the father (if not married to the mother) could not be named on a birth certificate unless he was also present at the registration.
I think there was a rule pre 1874/1875 as well, I read somewhere. I remember Clara Dixon's helpful BMD website said something about it. For example I have a ancestor sibling who had an illegitimate child in 1869, no father mentioned, but the child's middle name was Luff, and the mother later married a Luff in 1873.
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It wasn't stated in the original (1836) legislation, but the 1874 Act makes specific provision (Clause 7)
1836: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1836_(33)_Registration_of_Births_%26c._A_bill_for_registering_Births_Deaths_and_Marriages_in_England
1874: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/37-38/88/enacted
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Thank you for all the tips!
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One of my ancestors named his father on his marriage certificate. He also had that man’s surname as his middle name.
Newspapers can be a great resource. Recently found a relative, a middle-aged married man, who was charged with maintenance for a child born to an employee. The scandal seems to have been the reason the family relocated to Essex from Sussex (early 20th c.).
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Sometimes the mother took the birth father to court and certificates known as bastardy orders or affiliation orders can be found in local record office .
There is a chance that the trial would be recorded in local newspapers too.
I have an affiliation order from 1900 for my grandmother .her mother also put her daughter's middle name as the surname of her birth father but used a different middle name at the baptism 3 months later once she had secured payments
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I think there was a rule pre 1874/1875 as well,
The 1836 B&D Act (in E/W) had no specific mention of how, or if, a registrar should record an unmarried father. Between 1837 and 1874 most registrars seem to have not entered them on the register at all, so the column is left blank.
But a few did sometimes allow it and you do see a few entries with both parents named whilst clearly unmarried, but they are the exception.
The 1874 Act brought in the process of an unmarried father having to be present to sign the register entry as a "join informant" to be named - which is still the law today.
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I think there was a rule pre 1874/1875 as well,
The 1836 B&D Act (in E/W) had no specific mention of how, or if, a registrar should record an unmarried father. Between 1837 and 1874 most registrars seem to have not entered them on the register at all, so the column is left blank.
But a few did sometimes allow it and you do see a few entries with both parents named whilst clearly unmarried, but they are the exception.
The 1874 Act brought in the process of an unmarried father having to be present to sign the register entry as a "join informant" to be named - which is still the law today.
Thanks, I did think fathers on birth certs of illegitimate children was rarely named 1837 to 1874, before the 1874 Act of an unmarried father having to be present to sign the register entry as a "join informant" to be named.
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I mentioned earlier that my illegitimate ancestor's father's name was included when he married in 1842. Were there any rules about that? Although he had spent 20 years overseas in the Army he returned home and married in his home parish. I think it's likely everyone knew who his father was anyway. I am 99% sure my Stephen had a full brother not much older who took his father's surname in time and also followed the same trade.
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I think people were sometimes a little untruthful when they married to save face.
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I think people were sometimes a little untruthful when they married to save face.
When it’s a small community, it seems less likely, as everybody would know the truth.
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I can only speak for my own family but my illegitimate father and his sister both used an uncle as their father on their marriage certificate. My grandmother lied about her she on her second marriage. My paternal g/grandmother used her maiden name when registering my g/mother's birth while still married. I have a couple who married twice with the husband using different surnames and the wife declaring her self a spinster both times. After all it was unlikely anyone would check.
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I think the "giving the father's surname as a second (or third) given name" thing was probably in many cases a cunning way of subverting the rule against naming the father in the birth registration ...
Bastardy orders can be useful, but check the surrounding circumstances before you spend time looking for one.
My only missing great x3 grandparent is the father of an illegitimate great x2 grandfather. I'm not even going to attempt to look for a bastardy order. Why not? Because my great x3 grandmother and her sister appear to have been the village whores. No judgement here ... their father died young, leaving their mother to raise the family as best she could. She took in washing but that can't have paid very well ... so the two oldest daughters supplemented the family income in the only way they could. What else were they to do in pre-welfare state days? Let their younger brothers starve?
They had three illegitimate children each ... and that tells me all I need to know. There won't BE any bastardy orders. Why not? Because once a village whore starts seeking maintenance (even assuming she can overcome the "how can you be sure it was ME?" defence) ... word gets around and business dries up. Not what you want if that business is the only thing putting food on the family table ... so they won't have done it. End of story.
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I can only speak for my own family but my illegitimate father and his sister both used an uncle as their father on their marriage certificate. My grandmother lied about her she on her second marriage. My paternal g/grandmother used her maiden name when registering my g/mother's birth while still married. I have a couple who married twice with the husband using different surnames and the wife declaring her self a spinster both times. After all it was unlikely anyone would check.
I bet it really did your head in sorting all THAT out ...
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My 2xgreat gran was said to have been born in Stoke Newington, London on the 1881, 1891 and 1901 censuses, and in 2004 (before the release of 1911 and 1921 censuses) I went to the Tower Hamlets library to have a check at the earliest known census she would have been on, which was the 1871 census, when she was 6. While she had a 5 year old sister born "Middlesex", my ancestor's birthplace said "Sussex". I knew her mother was from Sussex and born there but always assumed she was born in London.
I was shocked at the Sussex birthplace revelation, and that is when I found out soon after she was illegitimate and her mother and very likely father moved to London when she was abut 3 or 4 months old. And taking into account how birthplaces on censuses can be unreliable. She grew up in London so assumed she was born there. She was christened in Nov 1864 in Hackney.
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My Great Grandmother was just one of at least two illegitimate children her Mother had, hence no Father listed on her birth cert and Grandfather listed as her Father on her marriage certificate. No Petty Sessions records exist online, I even visited the County Archives and they were not there for the time period in question.
Her Mother went on to marry a man who was only 10 years old when she was born so he could not be her Father.
Then DNA came to the rescue and so now I know with reasonable certainty who her Father was, it had become a waiting game and after three years the match came into play that lead on to the ID of the man, it also lead to over 100 other related DNA matches.
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I mentioned earlier that my illegitimate ancestor's father's name was included when he married in 1842. Were there any rules about that?
The father's, now both parents, information has never been part of the legally required information that has to be given when marrying (in England/Wales) so it is just whatever the bride/groom give. It isn't checked or verified at all. There has never been any rule to stop the father of a child born illegitimately being named, although I expect some vicars may have discouraged it.
Currently it is OK to name a natural, adoptive or step parent.
You can also choose to leave it blank if you want to as Boris Johnson and his wife both did when marrying in 2021 and as far as I know neither were born illegitimately, and both know who their parents are. I use a copy of their marriage certificate as an example of the new A4 format when I give talks on marriage registration. They aren't that unusual either - I had a few similar examples when I was a registrar.
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I'm never going to be able to find who my father's father was using DNA. I seem to have lots of matches around the world and few from his native county of Devon. He was a merchant mariner, though, who took two year contracts on trampers ??? ???to stay out of the UK for tax reasons. In his day a two week stay in port was normal to load and unload so who knows how many half siblings I have. ???
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antiquessam dont give up you may be able to work it out through matches to more distant relatives
his parents, brothers and sisters may have stayed place so you will have matches who are shared matches to each other from further back and one particular location and set of ancestors names will keep occurring ,you have to build your tree down from them
my grandmothers birth father never married or had other children as far as i know but my dna matches descendants of 2 of his sisters and a half sister who also lived at one point in the town where my grandmother was born .
there are lots of tips and examples of how to do this kind of triangulation on the dna forum
my cousins highest paternal dna match in a different country turned out to be descendant of the birth father of his grandfather but both descendants of a single mother so no name matches + i worked out which location and family he must have come from
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His sister did stay local, but she too was illegitimate, whether by the same father I don't know. Like him she is long dead along with all her offspring. He named his uncle as his father when marrying, as did his sister. To be honest I'm not sure I want to go down that track.
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I'm never going to be able to find who my father's father was using DNA. I seem to have lots of matches around the world and few from his native county of Devon. He was a merchant mariner, though, who took two year contracts on trampers ??? ???to stay out of the UK for tax reasons. In his day a two week stay in port was normal to load and unload so who knows how many half siblings I have. ???
Which company did you test with? Have you transferred any tests you have done to all the sites you can upload to i.e. GEDMATCH, MyHeritage, FamilyTreeDNA?
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I'm never going to be able to find who my father's father was using DNA. I seem to have lots of matches around the world and few from his native county of Devon. He was a merchant mariner, though, who took two year contracts on trampers ??? ???to stay out of the UK for tax reasons. In his day a two week stay in port was normal to load and unload so who knows how many half siblings I have. ???
I have a choice of five brothers. It may be as close as I get, but I know more than I did before I took the DNA test.
It sounds as if your grandfather lived up to the sailors creed of a girl in every port.
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Melba schmelba. I used Ancestry and it's on Gedmatch and My Heritage. I've joined the relevant Facebook page.
Nanna 52. I can't, of course, confirm your suggestion but I have my suspicions.
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I mentioned earlier that my illegitimate ancestor's father's name was included when he married in 1842. Were there any rules about that?
The father's, now both parents, information has never been part of the legally required information that has to be given when marrying (in England/Wales) so it is just whatever the bride/groom give. It isn't checked or verified at all. There has never been any rule to stop the father of a child born illegitimately being named, although I expect some vicars may have discouraged it.
Currently it is OK to name a natural, adoptive or step parent.
You can also choose to leave it blank if you want to as Boris Johnson and his wife both did when marrying in 2021 and as far as I know neither were born illegitimately, and both know who their parents are. I use a copy of their marriage certificate as an example of the new A4 format when I give talks on marriage registration. They aren't that unusual either - I had a few similar examples when I was a registrar.
Thank you for this information, Antony. When my mother, who was born to a single mother, married in 1945, she named her grandfather in the father column. He had a part in raising her And was still alive and likely at the wedding. Perhaps the vicar even suggested it.
I too have narrowed her father down to three brothers, I tend to think the youngest most likely. Unfortunately, only one of them had children, so even if one of the descendants tested, I could only rule out that one.
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As a general comment, as you go farther back in time, illegitimacy seemed to be less of a taboo and illegitimate children were often named in wills. It seemed that with the coming of Victorian times, it probably became more of a taboo and these things were hushed up and not publicly acknowledged.
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As a general comment, as you go farther back in time, illegitimacy seemed to be less of a taboo and illegitimate children were often named in wills. It seemed that with the coming of Victorian times, it probably became more of a taboo and these things were hushed up and not publicly acknowledged.
I have a relative who mentions an illegitimate daughter in his will. Unfortunately I cannot make out her surname, though am quite sure I found her baptism. Another brickwall I hope to knock down!
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I'm sorry, DIana, but I just couldn't help laughing at the irony of that.
Offer to give any genealogist a will which actually NAMES the illegitimate children and they'd bite your hand off to have it ... and the looks on their faces when that names turns out to be impossible to construe would be priceless! It's like that online forum game, isn't it ... where you grant the previous poster's wish, but with a catch :D
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As a general comment, as you go farther back in time, illegitimacy seemed to be less of a taboo and illegitimate children were often named in wills. It seemed that with the coming of Victorian times, it probably became more of a taboo and these things were hushed up and not publicly acknowledged.
I have a relative who mentions an illegitimate daughter in his will. Unfortunately I cannot make out her surname, though am quite sure I found her baptism. Another brickwall I hope to knock down!
Have you posted a screenshot in the handwriting deciphering forum :)?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/handwriting-deciphering-recognition/
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In my case, there is always the minor wriggle room, the small element of doubt as with any likely father of an illegitimate child, or even father of seemingly legitimate child born in wedlock. My ancestor Mary Ann Walder fell pregnant in about April 1863, unmarried, the very likely father had a dying wife who was dying on phthisis (lung TB), she died in November 1863, and the cert says "several years, certified" as to her phthisis. Then Mary Ann Walder gave birth on 31 Dec 1863, her grandfather John Walder died the following month. Mary Ann then moved to London with the very likely father and they married in July 1864, and the baby was then baptised as the daughter of the new husband and his married wife. So 99% good, only DNA will make it 99.999% certain it was Thomas Roberts, and not another man that side of The Watford Gap. Always a small chance a vulnerable man who had just become a widower met a woman who just had a baseborn child, and they fell in love. If on the minor chance Thomas Roberts was not the father, perhaps the real father died or ran off to America when he found he was to be a father, as he wanted to keep the bachelor life.
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I'm sorry, DIana, but I just couldn't help laughing at the irony of that.
Offer to give any genealogist a will which actually NAMES the illegitimate children and they'd bite your hand off to have it ... and the looks on their faces when that names turns out to be impossible to construe would be priceless! It's like that online forum game, isn't it ... where you grant the previous poster's wish, but with a catch :D
Very true! This relative is Thomas Abbotson, born in Hornby, Lancs. (parents Thomas Abbotson and Elizabeth Varley) who is very likely the same Thomas Abbotson who was later a doctor in Hertfordshire. The surname is quite rare and there were other doctors in the family, and when he married and had children, his first two were given names that occurred in the Abbotson family. His will named his illegitimate daughter as Elizabeth Hetod (that's what it looks like). I found a child Elizabeth born in Southwark to Thomas Abotson (sic) and Sarah Bettes at the end of 1798...Sarah died soon after birth. This fits nicely with the timeline. It's not watertight of course, would love a DNA match to Thomas. He does disappear from Lancashire and is alive when his father dies, he is mentioned in his will, but it doesn't say where he is.
Hetod, or whatever it is, may be Elizabeth's married name, as she would have been 26 when her father died, if Thomas is indeed her father.
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I wonder if it could be Herod ..r can look like t.s
Diane Could you post a clip .as Melba suggested the handwriting board is great for coming up with possibilities
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Thomas Abbotson, born in Hornby, Lancs. (parents Thomas Abbotson and Elizabeth Varley) who is very likely the same Thomas Abbotson who was later a doctor in Hertfordshire.
Lancashire to Hertfordshire is an unusual and rather long-distance migration. (OK ... so it might not seem long distance in a country that's wider than the Atlantic Ocean ... but it IS long-distance in a country that's narrower than the North Sea!)
If it is after the coming of the railways (say, 1840 onwards) or to a town on Watling Street (St Albans, King's Langley or Watford, say) I'd be less dubious. But if he ends up in somewheree like Ware, Buntingford or Hertford itself in 1810 or so I'd want to check that one carefully.
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I wonder if it could be Herod ..r can look like t.s
Diane Could you post a clip .as Melba suggested the handwriting board is great for coming up with possibilities
I'll see what I can do. Have to do dig out the will. I might have time to do some family history. We are having an ice storm now, into tomorrow. Hope the power doesn't go out!
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Thomas Abbotson, born in Hornby, Lancs. (parents Thomas Abbotson and Elizabeth Varley) who is very likely the same Thomas Abbotson who was later a doctor in Hertfordshire.
Lancashire to Hertfordshire is an unusual and rather long-distance migration. (OK ... so it might not seem long distance in a country that's wider than the Atlantic Ocean ... but it IS long-distance in a country that's narrower than the North Sea!)
If it is after the oming of the railways (say, 1840 onwards) or to a town on Watling Street (St Albans, King's Langley or Watford, say) I'd be less dubious. But if he ends up in somewheree like Ware, Buntingford or Hertford itself in 1810 or so I'd want to check that one carefully.
Yes, I do understand the distance thing, and always try to adjust my thinking re the British outlook vs. Canadian ideas on distance. On the other hand, Thomas is not found in Lancashire or the surrounding counties. I have traced his siblings, including two who went to New York City. I think he might have just gone to where a doctor was willing to take him on as an apprentice.
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Right ... and your name isn't that common, and doctors probably did make rather longer migrations than the shoemakers and basket weavers and publicans who make up the bulk of my non-AgLab ancestors.
I'd still be minded to do some null hylothesis testing, though ... assume that your man in Hertfordshire was local, and see if you can find any trace of him in Hertfordshire BEFORE your Lancashire migrant disappears off the face of Lancashire. If you can't that should give you a lot more confidence.
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Yes, I certainly haven't accepted that he is the Thomas born in Hornby to Thomas Sr. and his wife Elizabeth (Varley). Just a hypothesis.
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I've come across a few people in my tree with a blank "Father" section of their birth certificate and I was wondering if any of you had had a similar situation and had some success in finding the father?
If so, would you be able to share your steps to success or any resources that might possibly help a person find unknown fathers?
My 'Tip' would be...
Please state which Date (era)/Area/County/Country you are referring to.
Your query is in the 'Common Room' with no details which doesn't tell people anything i.e. giving advice may be incorrect as different Counties/Countries may differ ???
Annie
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I mentioned earlier that my illegitimate ancestor's father's name was included when he married in 1842. Were there any rules about that?
Absolutely not...Regardless whether registered 'illegitimate'/no father in attendance at registration, there's nothing to prevent anyone given/using their 'legitimate' father's surname in life...
Or any name for that matter as long as it wasn't/isn't for fraudulent purposes
Annie
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Also I think my 3xgreat gran was illegitimate and her parents were her grandparents as her mum was 51 when she had her last child, and the previous one was 8 years earlier. As the "last child" had her older sister's middle name, that is a clue plus her older sister later had 4 more illegitimate children.
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I have a relative who mentions an illegitimate daughter in his will. Unfortunately I cannot make out her surname, though am quite sure I found her baptism. Another brickwall I hope to knock down!
Why not post on the "Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition" board, there's always good eyes there to help...
It's surprising what others can see which we can't!
Annie
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You may even be able to find illegitimate ancestors mentioned in local newspapers, although most online date from 1800 onwards and not sure about 1798 mentions of cases of illegitimate children.
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My dad was born in December 1929. There is no father's name on the birth certificate so he was given his mother's surname.
I know his mother received a monthly postal order that stopped when he was 16 so I think there was a good chance that it there will be a bastardy bond in the record offices.
I recently made an enquiry at the records office and was told if they search and find something, they have to go before a JOP to ask if it can be released to me. They said the JOP usually say no. Which means waiting another 8 years before it is released into the public domain!
Not sure what to do next.
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Well ... I'd ask the record office to do the search, whilst providing them with a copy of your birth certificate and your dad's death certificate (assuming that he IS dead ... ) so that should they find something to take before the JP they can demonstrate that it relates to someone who is dead, and that the applicant is that person's son or daughter.
This should greatly increase your chances of a favourable outcome ... forewarned is forearmed, as they say ...
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My dad was born in December 1929. There is no father's name on the birth certificate so he was given his mother's surname.
I know his mother received a monthly postal order that stopped when he was 16 so I think there was a good chance that it there will be a bastardy bond in the record offices.
I recently made an enquiry at the records office and was told if they search and find something, they have to go before a JOP to ask if it can be released to me. They said the JOP usually say no. Which means waiting another 8 years before it is released into the public domain!
Not sure what to do next.
Was his birth registered in Dec 1929 or early 1930, due to the 6 week timeframe allowed? I know it may sound irrelevant but I always find it interesting how births often appear in the quarter following the birth due to the 6 weeks allowed.
DNA testing may help you in finding your dad's unknown father.
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Hi
My mission was to discover who my grandfathers father was. Myself, my mother and my aunt all did DNA tests and it was quite literally because of a close DNA match that came through last year that I discovered who he was. Had that person not done a DNA test I would still be working it out!
After that I expanded my research to include their family and I now have a further two close matches. It has taken me over 5 years and hours and hours of research and cross referencing but I got there. You just need to be patient and think sideways and not just backwards.
Good luck
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I've come across a few people in my tree with a blank "Father" section of their birth certificate and I was wondering if any of you had had a similar situation and had some success in finding the father?
If so, would you be able to share your steps to success or any resources that might possibly help a person find unknown fathers?
My 'Tip' would be...
Please state which Date (era)/Area/County/Country you are referring to.
Your query is in the 'Common Room' with no details which doesn't tell people anything i.e. giving advice may be incorrect as different Counties/Countries may differ ???
It would be in your own interest to state known Area/County/Country as others may have knowledge/experience to specific areas or the 'know how'?
As an example...in Scotland, info. on such things may be gained by using...
https://www.scottishindexes.com/
They're very well known in Scottish Genealogy & you can request a 'look-up' for a very reasonable price.
Annie