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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: Schoch on Saturday 04 February 23 14:37 GMT (UK)
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During WW11 Sheila married a Cyril Edward Francis (1914- 1942), in Glamorgan, Wales in 1941 (2nd 1/4).
Sheila gave birth to Michael John Francis (1942 - 2010), in Jan 1942. Cyril was killed in action in July 1942 in the desert (regimental number 833526 Royal Artillery).
The issue here is can Cyril be Michael's natural father if he was not in the country. The only way to prove this is to find where he was posted 9 months prior. Does anyone have access to military records for that time period.
Thanks
Richard
Michael was my 1/2 brother)
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What makes you think he wasn't in the country?
Have you got the birth certificate for Michael?
Cyril would have been present when he married so really need the date of marriage and date of birth to work things out. 1941 Apr-Jun could produce a baby born in Jan 1942.
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Thanks for your interest.
I do not "know" for certain the he was not in the country at the time of conception. However family "rumour" says he was not and that another man (Ted Preston) might be his father. If Cyril's Army records were to be examined it would give dates of postings and this would dispel the issue once and for all (I hope)
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During WW11 Sheila married a Cyril Edward Francis (1914- 1942), in Glamorgan, Wales in 1941 (2nd 1/4).
Cyril was killed in action in July 1942 in the desert (regimental number 833526 Royal Artillery).
Is this the same person ? His middle name is Benjamin and he has same regimental number
Cyril Benjamin Francis
Regiment Royal Artillery
Death date 15 Jul 1942
Service number 833526
Record set Royal Artillery Other Ranks: Casualty Cards 1939-1947
Don't know if this will be of any help there are two records on Forces War Records you have to create an account not sure if you have to pay to look at the record and what sort of information is given - see the link below
Cyril Benjamin Francis 833526 Lance Bombardier 1942 Royal Artillery
C B Francis 833526 (Unpaid) Lance Bombardier 1942 Royal Artillery
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01s37/
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Is there anyone named as the father on his birth certificate?
Sorry can't see a birth registration for that name in 1942 :-\
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FreeBMD says Cyril E Francis married Sheila Gibson
Apr-Jun 1941 . Bridgend . Volume 11a . Page 1833
Only the certificate would give their date.
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Sheila gave birth to Michael John Francis (1942 - 2010), in Jan 1942
Do you have MJF date of birth as the only birth I can see on FreeBMD with
mmn GIBSON was registered Mar 1943 Nthmbld. W.
Cyril Benjamin Francis age 26
Regiment Royal Artillery
Grave reference XXI. D. 18.
Cemetery or Memorial El Alamein War Cemetery
Burial country Egypt
Death 15 Jul 1942
Number 833526
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Rank Lance Bombardier
Subcategory Second World War
Unit 52 Bty., 1 Field Regt.
Additional information Son of David William and Elizabeth Ann Francis, of Pentre, Glamorgan.
War Second World War, 1939-1945
Record set Commonwealth War Graves Commission Debt Of Honour
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2093965/cyril-benjamin-francis/
edit to add
FRANCIS, CYRIL BENJAMIN mmn RICHARDS
GRO Reference: 1916 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 1323
marriage entry Free BMD
Dec 1911 Pontypridd 11a 1164
FRANCIS David W
female name on same page
RICHARDS Elizabeth A
Schoch
Who were Cyril Edward Francis' parents?
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The only Michael J Francis I find is Jul-Sep 1943 in Llanelly mmn Coles
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The only Michael J Francis I find is Jul-Sep 1943 in Llanelly mmn Coles
Ladyhawk has given the only FRANCIS/GIBSON birth reg.
March quarter 1943
FRANCIS, Michael J
Mother's maiden name: GIBSON
Nthmbld. W.
10b 444
Debra :)
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On the 1939 Register, the only Sheila E Gibson b. 1922 is 30 Claremont Road Whitley Bay, nothing in Wales
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FreeBMD says Cyril E Francis married Sheila Gibson
Apr-Jun 1941 . Bridgend . Volume 11a . Page 1833
Only the certificate would give their date.
Schoch
Do you have their marriage certificate?
If so, what was Cyril's fathers name ?
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Hi Ladyhawk.
MJF was born 15 Jan 1943. That makes it possible that Cyril is his father, but if the marriage was later in that 1942 1/4 then it is a bit more unlikely.
Cyril's post date would help confirming this I think.
I only have the marriage record that show the 2nd !/4 1942
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On the 1939 Register, the only Sheila E Gibson b. 1922 is 30 Claremont Road Whitley Bay, nothing in Wales
Hi Talacharn,
Yes Shiela lived in Whitley Bay (Claremont St.) Thanks
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That is where he was registered in Northumberland.
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FreeBMD says Cyril E Francis married Sheila Gibson
Apr-Jun 1941 . Bridgend . Volume 11a . Page 1833
Only the certificate would give their date.
MJF was born 15 Jan 1943. That makes it possible that Cyril is his father, but if the marriage was later in that 1942 1/4 then it is a bit more unlikely.
Cyril's post date would help confirming this I think.
I only have the marriage record that show the 2nd !/4 1942
Their marriage was registered 1941 April/May/June Quarter posted by Talacharn and as mentioned you would need the certificate to see the exact date of their marriage
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You would also need the birth certificate for his actual birth date.
Added: And his enlistment to establish the timeline.
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Talacharn,
MJF was my 1/2 brother so I know his birth date (day after mine in January)
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During WW11 Sheila married a Cyril Edward Francis (1914- 1942), in Glamorgan, Wales in 1941 (2nd 1/4).
Sheila gave birth to Michael John Francis (1942 - 2010), in Jan 1942.
Cyril was killed in action in July 1942 in the desert (regimental number 833526 Royal Artillery).
Cyril Benjamin Francis age 26
Regiment Royal Artillery
Grave reference XXI. D. 18.
Cemetery or Memorial El Alamein War Cemetery
Burial country Egypt
Death 15 Jul 1942
Number 833526
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Rank Lance Bombardier
Subcategory Second World War
Unit 52 Bty., 1 Field Regt.
Additional information Son of David William and Elizabeth Ann Francis, of Pentre, Glamorgan.
War Second World War, 1939-1945
Record set Commonwealth War Graves Commission Debt Of Honour
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2093965/cyril-benjamin-francis/
edit to add
FRANCIS, CYRIL BENJAMIN mmn RICHARDS
GRO Reference: 1916 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 1323
marriage entry Free BMD
Dec 1911 Pontypridd 11a 1164
FRANCIS David W
female name on same page
RICHARDS Elizabeth A
Schoch
Who were Cyril Edward Francis' parents?
Schoch
What records do you have for Cyril showing his middle name Edward? Was it from his marriage certificate? I can only find the above Cyril with middle name Benjamin with the regiment and service number you have given ???
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Yes I got it from the marriage record and from MJF birth cert. Must be the same person though, same date of death.
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Yes I got it from the marriage record and from MJF birth cert. Must be the same person though, same date of death.
Was his father named David William Francis on the m/c?
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If Cyril E was born in 1914, it was Jul-Sep 1914 in Plymouth mmn Ecclestone (5b.395)
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If Cyril E was born in 1914, it was Jul-Sep 1914 in Plymouth mmn Ecclestone (5b.395)
Cyril EDGAR Francis Sept Qtr 1914 Plymouth mmn ECCLESTONE (GRO indexes)
Possible parents marriage entry FreeBMD
Mar 1912 Plymouth 5b 409
Francis Percy E
Ecclestone Winnie/Winifred L
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I have looked +/- 2 years in all of the UK and the Cyril E mmn Ecclestone is the only birth.
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On the 1939 Register there is a Cyril Francis (no middle initial) b.1914 at 2 Sea View, Cefn Cribwr, Penybont (Bridgend). No middle initial. I do not subscribe so cannot see the full date of birth.
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LadyHawk.
Have not explored Cyril's parents as the relationship would a "step" one through my mother Sheila.
Until I can prove who Michael's father was (which is unlikely, maybe DNA), there is no real issue doing so, but not a "real" connection for me.
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Talacharn,
Thanks. The trouble is Francis is a common welsh name. At least I have Cyril's middle names sorted (I think)
Richard
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On the 1939 Register there is a Cyril Francis (no middle initial) b.1914 at 2 Sea View, Cefn Cribwr, Penybont (Bridgend). No middle initial. I do not subscribe so cannot see the full date of birth.
I was looking at that entry too and it appears he's with
Thomas John Francis 1883
Margaret Ann Francis 1886
they married Sep 1904 Bridgend
Beale Margaret Ann
Francis Thomas John
but I cannot find a birth registered Mar qtr. 1914 for Cyril Francis mmn Beale ??? He doesn't appear to be with Thomas & Margaret in 1921 Glamorganshire
Thomas Beale 1864 Wick, Glamorganshire
Jane Beale 1863 Glamorganshire
Thomas Beale 1896 Glamorganshire
Cyril Beale. 1902 Glamorganshire
Thomas John Francis 1883 Coychurch
Margerate Ann Francis 1886 Glamorganshire
Need Schoch to confirm Cyril's fathers name from the 1941 marriage cert. to see if we are looking at the correct Cyril.
Question the death of Cyril Benjamin Francis on CWGC site (link provided) there is no mention of a wife but on the additional note it does mention his parents - is this usual?
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Do not have the Marriage Crt. only the index record. Will see if I can find it and check further, thanks
Richard
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For 1914, I can only find three births:
Cyril IT Francis . mmn Spence . Abergavenny . Jan-Mar 1914 . 11 . 87
Cyril W Francis . mmn Corfe . Camberwell . Jan-Mar 1914 . 1d . 1711
Cyril E Francis . mmn Eccestone . Plymouth . Jul-Sep 1914 . 5b . 395
I looked all over the UK.
You may need his birth date and maybe the certificate to unlock his war documents.
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Yes I got it from the marriage record and from MJF birth cert. Must be the same person though, same date of death.
Was his father named David William Francis on the m/c?
Do not have the Marriage Crt. only the index record. Will see if I can find it and check further, thanks
When you posted you had got it from the marriage record & MJF birth certificate I thought you had a copy of the m/c
Did you get the Army details for Cyril from the birth certificate?
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On the 1921 census, the only Cyril Francis b.1914 matches the one in Plymouth. There is a Cyril Francis born 1912 Maesteg and living in Bridgend and another b.1915 Blaengarw and also living in Bridgend.
The Cyril Benjamin Francis form the war records, b.1916 Rhondda, Pontypridd
I also looked for Cyril Beale with nothing in Wales on the 1921 census and nothing with Cyril E.
Added:
Cyril Francis . mmn Francis . Jan-Mar 1912 . Pontypridd . 11a . 1342
Maybe illegitimate?
Cyril Francis . mmn True . Oct-Dec 1913 . Bridgend . 11a . 1817
Cyril Francis . mmn James . Oct-Dec 1915 . Bridgend . 11a . 1579
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On the 1939 Register there is a Cyril Francis (no middle initial) b.1914 at 2 Sea View, Cefn Cribwr, Penybont (Bridgend). No middle initial. I do not subscribe so cannot see the full date of birth.
I think possibly the above Cyril could be ruled out as he appears at Bridgend Police Court
mentioned in Glamorgan Gazette 13 June 1941 his address given as Sea View Cefn Cribwr
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I believe his MMN was James, I have located a birth record (not cert.)
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That could link to the one I added above:
Cyril Francis . mmn James . Oct-Dec 1915 . Bridgend . 11a . 1579
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I believe his MMN was James, I have located a birth record (not cert.)
FRANCIS, CYRIL mmn JAMES
GRO Reference: 1915 D Quarter in BRIDGEND Volume 11A Page 1579
If the above is your Cyril that would mean he is not the Cyril Benjamin Francis who died 1942 whose birth was registered 1916 mmn Richards.
To be 100% certain the marriage certificate should confirm his fathers name then you can go from there.
What was the occupation given for MJF father?
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It would seem Cyril Francis b.1915 in Blaengarw, by 1921 he was living in Llangeinor, Bridgend.
Can anyone look to see who he was living with?
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That could link to the one I added above:
Cyril Francis . mmn James . Oct-Dec 1915 . Bridgend . 11a . 1579
He appears on 1921 with following
John W Francis 1873
Elizabeth 1873 Tredegar, Monmouthshire
Bronwen 1901 Blaengarw, Glamorganshire (mmn James - GRO indexes)
Ethel 1902 Blaengarw, Glamorganshire (mmn James)
Emlyn 1904 Blaengarw, Glamorganshire (mmn James)
Thomas John 1906 Glamorganshire (mmn James)
Byron 1911 Blaengarw, Glamorganshire (mmn James)
Prydivedd 1913 Blaengarw, Glamorganshire (mmn James)
Cyril 1915 Blaengarw, Glamorganshire
Added - possible marriage entry FreeBMD
Jun 1898 Bridgend 11a 982
Francis John
other names on same page
James Elizabeth
JOHN Thomas
Williams Julia
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Need to take this back to what I "know". My mother's marriage record (not cert.) shows a Cyril E. Francis. Does this mean the death I have for him may not be correct (middle name Benjamin), unless this is a transcription error between handwritten the letters of E and B ????
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From the evidence found, unless he was b.1914 in Plymouth, Cyril did not have a middle name. At present, there is nothing linking to that Cycil E Francis. Maybe he made-up a middle name. It happened in my family. I seem to have found Cyril Benjamin born in Pontypridd in 1916.
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As has been pointed out already I need the actual marriage and birth certs for Cyril. If no middle name appears then that will narrow down the possibilities of the death and as to whether or not he is the birth father of MJF
Thanks for everyone's input
Richard
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I cannot find Cyril B Francis on the 1939 Register, so he could have enlisted before 1941.
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I seem to have found Cyril Benjamin born in Pontypridd in 1916.
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I posted details of birth reg for a Cyril Benjamin Francis 1916 mmn Richards and possible parents see reply 6
As has been pointed out already I need the actual marriage and birth certs for Cyril. If no middle name appears then that will narrow down the possibilities of the death and as to whether or not he is the birth father of MJF
Thanks for everyone's input
If you purchase the 1941 marriage certificate please come back and let us know his middle name and who is named as his father :)
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I would expect Cyril to be listed on the Bridgend WW2 memorial but he is not there. The information says 90 were killed with 90 listed. Maybe he was not from Bridgend?
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It seems he was married in Bridgend, obviously not from where he was born. SO marriage/birth certs are required. See what turns up !!
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The marriage was in the Bridgend registration district which covered various parishes, not necessarily in Bridgend itself. Long list here
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/bridgend.html
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On the Commonwealth War Memorials website there is only one listed:
CYRIL FRANCIS . Gunner . Service Number: 958467
25 Field Regt. Royal Artillery United Kingdom
Died 21 June 1942 . 24 years old (Born 1918)
Buried or commemorated at ALAMEIN MEMORIAL . Column 35 . Egypt
Son of Kendrick and Lily Francis, of Wrexham, Denbighshire.
In 1921, Cyril Francis . 1918 . Wrexham, Denbighshire and he seems to still be in Wrexham in 1939.
The marriage certificate is required first to establish his father’s name. He may not have been telling the truth about his age. Unless he was born in Plymouth, the date of birth and middle name do not fit. Then it is finding his birth. As I said before, you may need the information/document to access his war records, though technically you are not related to him, which could be another issue.
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It has been ordered. So hopefully it provides the detail Ib need to sort this out.
Richard
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Well the digital copy of the wedding cert has arrived.
Confirmed Cyril Edward Francis (Corporal), 30yrs, married Sheila Elizabeth Gibson (18) 1 May 1941.
His father was John Percival Francis (Hotel Porter).
They were both posted at an RAF base at St Athan. (near Cardiff, Wales.) Also if he held the rank of Corporal then he was not in the Royal Artillery as he would have been a Bombadier.
So more "digging" ahead to identify his death date.
Thanks for the guidance.
Richard
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May not help with death or military details but here are his likely parents info.
FRANCIS, CYRIL EDWARD mmn MACKENZIE
GRO Reference: 1911 J Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 143
Marriages Jun Q 1905 same page with others
FRANCIS John Percival Eastbourne 2b 164
Mackenzie Beatrice Eastbourne 2b 164
1911 they are in Islington, both b 1883, no children with them, John Percival is a hotel valet
1921 free index - Cyril Edward Francis b1911 Islington, living Islington, London, Middlesex
Cyril Edward, Beatrice Eleanor, John Percival and 1 other are on this record
Some history. Maybe he was RAF?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOD_St_Athan
Just for info Bridgend registration district would cover St Athan, maybe they met there?
Also if they married May 1941 and son born Jan 1942 there would be only around 9 mths between, not a lot of time for meeting another potential father. Just a thought....
Cas
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Thanks ,
On the button thanks. Now I have to find what happened to Cyril, did he die in the war or not.
Still need to locate his military record (maybe RAF) to see if he could be the natural father to Michael Francis.
The 1911 census shows 2 children, one still alive, wonder where the living one is (is he Cyril), or was Cyril born later in the year? Questions I have plenty... answers not so much LOL
Ain’t this fun
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1911 census was taken 2nd April, Cyril born A/M/J Qtr that year.
There is this birth, he is in electrol for Islington 1930s. No idea if related to Cyril.
FRANCIS, WALTER MONTROSE mmn MACKENZIE
GRO Reference: 1908 S Quarter in ST. PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 124
Cas
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Thanks Cas,
Yes I saw that name (Walter Montrose) before but not the mmn of Mackenzie. So it looks as John Percival and his wife had at least 3 children, one of whom died before the 1911 census, and Cyril born later that year.
Filling in the family nicely now thanks to everyone's help.
Just need to find death details for Cyril, but that is a very common combination of names so the search is slow I think.
Richard
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Just checked 1921 free index he is brother to Cyril
Walter Montrouce, Beatrice Eleanor, Cyril Edward and 1 other are on this record
I have no idea about military records. WW2 records would still be with the MOD? Have you tried searching electrol for him?
Added: Looks like mother possibly died 1926?
Deaths Mar Q 1926
Francis Beatrice E 43 Islington 1b 230
Cas
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Yes funny enough just going through those now. Seems to be a few of them.
Thanks
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There is only one death listed for a Cyril Edward in England & Wales from 1941 when married. Birthdate would fit with birth registration. But death could have been registered without middle name.
Deaths Sep Q 1982
FRANCIS CYRIL EDWARD birth 7 AP 1911 MAIDSTONE 16 1155
What info do you have that he died in WW2, did Sheila remarry?
Cas
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Sheila was my mother and she married my father ( Fredrick William Schoch) in 1947. She had a complicated life ..3 husbands, 6 children to the 3 men.
She had her 1st son Micheal John Francis in 1943. So obviously I am trying to find out what happened to her 1st husband Cyril. She never spoke of him but implied that he was killed in WW11, hence this post.
While I have now added more family members I still have no idea where Cyril went. Strange I can trace some branches of my tree to the 1700’s but can not solve this one.
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Interestingly...
Have just search GRO for the name Cyril Edward Francis born J Qtr 1911 all areas (same as death date).
Only one other same name born Monmouthshire and he had names Cyril Edward Morgan Francis
I wonder if the death is your man? Possibly the marriage did not work as there was an age difference she was very young. Possibly look for a divorce?
Cas
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Looks like it is not a possibility to research as after 1937 less than 0.2% divorce cases survived
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/divorce/
I think to likely confirm if Cyril fathered your brother it would be the DNA route with him or a child/grandchild of his.
Thread on WW2 records. Although there was mention that some would be moved to NA in near future.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=651361.0
Hope this helped and you find your answers
Good luck
Cas
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Thanks for the information in your last 2 posts. I do not think Sheila divorced as her marriage cert shows “widow” when she wed my father.
So I have to search further to find Cyril’s death, if such a record exists that is.
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Hello
Been following with interest; just a bit of a warning. The information on a marriage certificate is only as good as the informant, as no proof was required. She may have been divorced or even still married when she married her second husband.
Nesta
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That I never considered !!!
Food for thought there.
But I still need to identify Cyril’s family (and tree) to try a DNA approach. If this was an ancient member of my tree I would most likely leave it as another “wall”. But this is a Step Father and any other children he had are my 1/2 siblings.
If Sheila lied on her marriage cert then the only way I can see to prove (or not) is to find Cyril. If he died in the war then she told the truth. If he lived then she may have told a “porky pie”, and even been married to 2 men at once.
(Sounds like a movie plot)
Richard
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There is only one death listed for a Cyril Edward in England & Wales from 1941 when married. Birthdate would fit with birth registration. But death could have been registered without middle name.
Deaths Sep Q 1982
FRANCIS CYRIL EDWARD birth 7 AP 1911 MAIDSTONE 16 1155
For info.
Cyril Edward Francis of Postley Rd Maidstone
Died 18 Jun 1982 Maidstone Probate 14 Aug 1984 Ipswich
Well the digital copy of the wedding cert has arrived.
Confirmed Cyril Edward Francis (Corporal), 30yrs, married Sheila Elizabeth Gibson (18) 1 May 1941.
His father was John Percival Francis (Hotel Porter).
They were both posted at an RAF base at St Athan. (near Cardiff, Wales.) Also if he held the rank of Corporal then he was not in the Royal Artillery as he would have been a Bombadier.
So more "digging" ahead to identify his death date.
Have you tried searching in the London Gazette there maybe mention of when Cyril was promoted to Corporal.
I don't know this link will be of any help https://www.forcesreunited.co.uk/units/689/raf-st-athan/12
Some history RAF St Athan opened on 1 September 1938 and the first unit to take up residence was No. 4 School of Technical Training..........World War Two the station had over 14,000 personnel, and was used for training ground and air crew.... https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/stations/mod-st-athan/
You probably have this already but just in case you don't......
UK, Absent Voter Lists, 1918-1925, 1939
John Percival Francis
Rank: Gnr
Electoral Date: 1919
Electoral Place: London Borough of Islington
Regiment: 284 Sge Bty, RGA
Service Number: 93833
Address 157 Huddleston Road
John Percival and Beatrice Eleanor Francis on London ER 1920/1922 at the above address
John Percival Francis
Military Year: 1914-1920
Rank: Gunner
Regiment or Corps: Royal Garrison Artillery
Regiment Number: 93833
Medal Awarded: British War Medal and Victory Medal
There is a Cyril Edward Francis living at 80 Gladsmuir Road Upper Holloway Islington
other surnames at same address - Pinckney & Tully year 1936
The Pinckney are at that address in 1935, 1937 and 1939 but Cyril is not with them
Looks like mother possibly died 1926?
Deaths Mar Q 1926
Francis Beatrice E 43 Islington 1b 230
Beatrice Eleanor Francis
Register Type: Burial
Burial or Cremation Date: 11 Mar 1926
Burial or Cremation Place: Islington, London
from deceased online
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Ward or Division/Constituency: Southgate South
County or Borough: Finchley,
Parliamentary County of Middlesex year 1945
Service Register
Index letters S = Seaman W = War Worker L = Indicated Local Government Elector only
Where there is no index letter printed the elector is a member of the Forces
Cyril Edward Francis, address Sutton Rd
Years 1946 & 47 same address Sutton Rd
Cyril E Francis
Beatrice Francis
Walter M Francis
Is this Cyril Edward Francis with his brother Walter Montrose Francis & sister in law?
Did Walter marry a Burden ? There's a Burden with them from 1948
EDIT to add Cyril is not with them from 1948 onwards Walter and Beatrice are still at that address in 1965
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For info.
Walter M Francis
Beatrice Burden
marriage entry Jun 1937 Worthing
If the above is Cyril's brother then Cyril was still alive in 1947
You would need the m/c to confirm if Walter's father is named John Percival Francis
This appears to be the death of Walter's wife
FRANCIS Beatrice born 29 12 1915 died Sep 1999 registered Barnet Middlesex
Her birth entry
Dec 1915 BURDEN Beatrice mmn Downey E.Preston
The female Burden with Walter & Beatrice on the Electoral Register from 1948 also has mother's maiden name Downey her birth registered Sep 1926 E Preston
Possible parents marriage entry
Burden/Downey Dec 1913 E Preston
There this family on 1921 census
Ernest Burden 1884 Worthing, Sussex
Christine Burden 1892 Sussex, England
William Burden 1914 Worthing, Sussex
Beatrice Burden 1916 Worthing, Sussex
Weara Burden 1919 Worthing, Sussex
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Walter Montrose Francis McKenzie
Baptism Age 0
Record Type Baptism
Birth Date 6 Jul 1909
Baptism Date 13 Feb 1910
Baptism Place St John the Evangelist, Red Lion Square, Camden, England
Father John Percival McKenzie
Mother Beatrice Eleanor McKenzie
You have turned up more information in your last 3 post than I have in weeks.
So my mother was less than forthcoming in regards to her past. Cyril did not die in the war, so either they divorced or she was a really, really naughty girl back then.
Many thanks
Richard
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Thank you all who assisted me on this. I now have them all "grafted" onto my tree and hopefully, at some later date, DNA will confirm the facts and then I may find some "step/half siblings" (or whatever they are).
Richard