RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: ourgang on Thursday 02 February 23 12:53 GMT (UK)
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I have also posted this morning under Emigrants and Immigrants.
Friedrich Hirsch was born in Eiwanowitz in der Hanna now called Ivanovice na Hané in the now Czech Republic. Could anyone advise how I could go about tracing his family history and possible connections in the Czech Republic. He was a refugee to Ireland in 1938 from Wien Austria.
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https://www.mza.cz/actapublica/matrika/hledani?typ=obec&obec_id=517
The above is a link to parish registers held for this town in the Brno archives, which cover southern Moravia. These will mostly be Roman Catholic. The archive does not hold any Jewish records, according to here:
https://cgsi.org/resources/intro-research/using-archives/archive-list/southern-moravia-brno
Jewish records are held at the national Archives, Prague, see
https://www.nacr.cz/en/eindex.htm
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Thank you very much fiddlerslass for the links.
I will check what year Friedrich was born. These sites will be a good place to start.
I think at the time of his arrival in Ireland he was Roman Catholic and I have no knowledge of if/when the family may have been Jewish.
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Can I ask - do you know whereabouts in Ireland he went to live ?
there are a lot of Hirsch family in the 1911 census - could he have gone to stay with family ?
Rathdown / Wicklow / Armagh / Dublin / Belfast / County Clare / Templemore / Belmont - a long list of locations for Hirsch family in 1911
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1943 zoomable map of Eiwanowitz i.d. Hanna
https://www.digitalniknihovna.cz/mzk/view/uuid:3b779c40-92e6-11eb-871e-005056827e51?page=uuid:8906fdac-5442-424b-a0b2-585374540001
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Thank you fiddlerslass. How wonderful. I will spend hours looking.
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Thank you garstonite,
Friedrich did not have any relations in Ireland. He came as a refugee and was dispersed with a small group of agricultural labourers to various parts of Ireland by the Refugee Council. I know his history since arrival in Ireland, but, want to trace the family back through Vienna and the Czech Republic.
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1939 Directory
https://www.digitalniknihovna.cz/mzk/view/uuid:4f1dc410-c176-11e4-b2e2-005056827e52?page=uuid:b58b2a40-eac9-11e4-a794-5ef3fc9bb22f
entry for Ivanovice na Hané.
A quick look & I see a Hirschová A. Confectioner, Hirsch Manfred, men's tailor,
https://www.digitalniknihovna.cz/mzk/view/uuid:4f1dc410-c176-11e4-b2e2-005056827e52?page=uuid:de0b3500-eac9-11e4-a794-5ef3fc9bb22f
Next page
Hirschová Arnostka, draper
https://www.digitalniknihovna.cz/mzk/view/uuid:4f1dc410-c176-11e4-b2e2-005056827e52?page=uuid:de60f620-eac9-11e4-a794-5ef3fc9bb22f
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Thank you fiddlerslass.
I think Friedrich would have been born in late 1880's. Unsure of when he went to Vienna but married there and would have been in his 40's when family left Vienna in 1938 fleeing for safety. I am not too bad at searching records but haven't a clue where to start in the Czech Republic and don't even know what records are available on line. As with my own family noone thought to ask Friedrich any family questions while he was alive!! I would love to find out who his father and mother were and if there is extended family. Tall order I know but I'm up for a search.
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Start with the parish registers I sent , and see if you can spot any Hirsch records. I am not sure if they have any indexes, so it may be a case of gradually working your way through.
North Bohemia is more familiar to me as a research area, although my Berger family did originate in Moravia in the town of Chrudim late 1600's.
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geneanet - hirsch - czech republic - see if anything stands out
https://en.geneanet.org/fonds/individus/?exact_day=&exact_month=&exact_year=&ignore_each_patronyme=&ignore_each_prenom=&size=10&type_periode=between&sexe=&nom=hirsch&ignore_each_patronyme=&prenom=&prenom_operateur=or&ignore_each_prenom=&place__0__=&zonegeo__0__=Czech+republic&country__0__=CZE®ion__0__=&subregion__0__=&place__1__=&zonegeo__1__=&country__1__=®ion__1__=&subregion__1__=&place__2__=&zonegeo__2__=&country__2__=®ion__2__=&subregion__2__=&place__3__=&zonegeo__3__=&country__3__=®ion__3__=&subregion__3__=&place__4__=&zonegeo__4__=&country__4__=®ion__4__=&subregion__4__=&type_periode=between&from=&to=&exact_month=&exact_day=&exact_year=&go=1
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Here is a link to various censuses of Ivanovice. To view click "Zobrazit".Again, not indexed, so takes a while to go through.Generally there are a few pages before you get to the individual householders forms.
https://www.mza.cz/scitacioperaty/digisada/search/1
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Name: Friedrich Hirsch
Marriage Age: 24
Record Type: Heirat (Marriage)
Birth Date: 22 Mai 1892 (22 May 1892)
Birth Place: Eiwanowitz
Marriage Date: 29 Nov 1916
Marriage Place: Wienbreitenfeld, Vienna, Vienna, Austria
Diocese: Vienna City
Father:
Hermann Hirsch
Mother:
Johanna Nowatschek
Spouse:
Maria Hager
The above Friedrich was Jewish, and his bride was Catholic. It looks like he was baptized later in 28 march 1934. His former address was Budapest. Brides father was Franz, and her mother Maria Müller
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/12830400:61634?tid=&pid=&queryId=7e39e0acf2c213c84c1b9bbf19f628bb&_phsrc=DYR4407&_phstart=successSource
There was a son, Ludwig Maria Friedrich born in Vienna in 1918, christened in the same church.
Name: Ludwig Maria Friedrich Hirsch
Gender: männlich (Male)
Record Type: Taufe (Baptism)
Birth Date: 14 Apr 1918
Baptism Date: 25 Apr 1918
Baptism Place: Wienbreitenfeld, Vienna, Vienna, Austria
Diocese: Vienna City
Legitimacy: Ehelich
Father:
Friedrich Hirsch
Mother:
Maria Hirsch
Could this be the right family?
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https://www.mza.cz/scitacioperaty/digisada/detail/6187?image=226206010-000712-000000-00000N-000102-01-VY0302-02630.jp2
Hermann Hirsch, unmarried son of widowed Mina Hirsch in 1890 Ivanovice house number 399. Brother Adolf and sister Rosa. Elise is sister to Mina, but I can't make out her surname, possibly Götylová? All are born in Ivanovice, are Czech speakers and Jewish.
If this is the father of Friedrich, his marriage is therefore sometime between 1890 and 1892.
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Probably not the right Herman, still single living in same house in 1900. But definitely worth trawling through these censuses.
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Thanks to both fiddlerslass and garstonite. Such a lot of records! I will enjoy going through those.
fiddlerslass that is the correct marriage record for Friedrich and Maria and birth record for Ludwig (Fritz). An amazing man, with a keen mind and a wonderful disposition, who lived into his nineties. It is so exciting as we have heard the name Nowatschek but didn't know what the relationship was. Interesting fact also that Friedrich was baptised in 1934. Somehow we had envisioned that maybe there was a religion change in the 1800's.
I am delighted to have all these leads and links. As refugees the family spoke little about family or the difficulties fleeing or assimilating. We hope to visit Ivanovice to piece together the family history. Who knows we may find relations.
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Glad to be of assistance. If you have access to the original baptism of Ludwig you will see one of the sponsors is an older Ludwig Hirsch, who may be worth trying to follow up.
Nowatschek may appear as Novatšek, Novátšek or feminine Novatšeková, or possibly the more common Novaček/ová or Nováček.
If you do find them in the census, especially the 1800's make a note of the house numbers, as you can use Cadestral maps to see where the house was. Then you can use street view to try and see if it still exists.
https://www.myczechroots.com/records/cadastres/stabile-cadastre
Maps are here, site is all in Czech
https://ags.cuzk.cz/archiv/
Blog on how to navigate above site
http://czechgenealogy.nase-koreny.cz/2014/07/stabile-cadaster-maps.html?m=1
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fidlerslass,
Thank you, thank you. What great information. We will have a day searching. It is only recently that we found the connection to Ivanovice. The maps are going to be so helpful.
We have left it quite late in our lives to try and trace roots for the family but, have allocated this year to search for clues and maybe walk the streets of Ivanovice.
Once again Rootschatters have come up trumps. We are so grateful.
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Ivanovice Jewish cemetery is on Billion graves. There are memorials for 5 people with surname Hirsch. Remember I sent some directory names; Arnostka Hirschova the draper also had maiden name Nowatschkova and her husband was Emanuel. There is a Minna Hirsch and Daniel. I wonder if she is the widow Mina I found in the census.
https://billiongraves.com/cemetery/h%C5%99bitov-Ivanovice-na-Han%C3%A9---%C5%BEidovsk%C3%BD-jewish/289163
They also have the Catholic cemetery
https://billiongraves.com/cemetery/H%C5%99bitov-Ivanovice-na-Han%C3%A9-s-kapl%C3%AD-sv-Josefa/199681
Some general information, makes very sad reading,
http://iajgscemetery.org/eastern-europe/czech-republic/ivanovice
It looks like the synagogue building still exists, used by the Apostolic church.
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From National Archives
Registers of Jewish Religious Communities from 1784 to 1949
In 2011, all volumes of registries of Jewish religious communities housed in the National Archives were digitized. In the course of this year, they will be made available in parts on VadeMeCum.nacr.cz. First, it will be the volumes from the fonds “Registers of Jewish Religious Communities in the Czech Lands” (HBMa), for publication of which the original inventory was used after its editing.
I had a look and found some Ivanovice records, but not being a Czech speaker found it quite difficult to navigate the site to find the later records. I did manage to get on to the pre 1850 births and found an earlier Herman Hirsch born 1830.
You may be more successful :)
Please let me know if you find records for Friedrich b. 1892.
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https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/9930723:61634?tid=&pid=&queryId=fa8f96f3c70b4539d6a4e37d7717cfc7&_phsrc=DYR4442&_phstart=successSource
Dr. Ludwig Hirsch brother to Friedrich RC baptism. The note says he was ordered to take the additional name Israel in 1943.
Here is his marriage to Hildegarde
Name: Dr Ludwig (Israel ) Hirsch
Marriage Age: 34
Record Type: Heirat (Marriage)
Birth Date: 6 Juni 1886
Birth Place: Eiwanowitz
Marriage Date: 5 Juli 1920
Marriage Place: Wiensanktantonvonpadua, Vienna, Vienna, Austria
Diocese: Vienna City
Father:
Hermann Hirsch
Mother:
Johanna Nowatschek
Spouse:
Hildegarde Josefa Deichsenberger
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/13600339:61634?tid=&pid=&queryId=fcbe1ac19183688d91772a141c418d82&_phsrc=DYR4443&_phstart=successSource
There is a note that he died 194? In Vienna area 7
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Another child of Hermann and Johanna Hirsch.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/12824315:61634?tid=&pid=&queryId=d67bca2f7ac880e8fb68017cc2ccf69b&_phsrc=DYR4461&_phstart=successSource
Valerie Anna Maria made to take name Sara in 1939. it also says that Hermann was born in
19 sept 1853 son of Simon Hirsch and wife Sara. Johanna Nowatschek was born 17 Dec 1864 in Butschowitz , area of Wischau, Moravia , daughter of Moritz and Elizabeth nee Bratmann?
More about Butschowitz
https://www.geni.com/projects/Jewish-Families-from-Bu%C4%8Dovice-Butschowitz-South-Moravia-Czech-Republic/12291
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bu%C4%8Dovice
Another place to visit.
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fiddlerslass,
If I was excited this morning I am now blown away by the amount of research you have done. I will have to take one step at a time and follow up all the leads you have given. My head is swirling.
I know a lot about the Hirsch family life in Ireland and a little of their time in Vienna but getting the link to Ivanovich is opening up an exciting project. How wonderful to have details of Ludwig (Israel) Hirsch! There were stories that a brother of Friedrich (maybe Robert)was on the same escape route in 1938 and he went to the U.S. That is another day's work. The Quakers gave great support to the fleeing refugees and suggested the U.K and then Ireland to Friedrich, wife and family. How lives are shaped by kind people!
You have been so kind with your research I will definitely tell you whenever we succeed with other names and connections.
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https://www.mza.cz/scitacioperaty/digisada/detail/6183?image=226206010-000712-000000-00000N-000099-02-VY0298-00460.jp2
1869 census Ivanovice na Haná house no 21
Simon Hirsch b. 1813 Jewish married buyer/owner b. Ivanovice
Teresia Hirsch wife b. 1812 " "
David Hirsch. B. 1848. "
Herman Hirsch. b. 1853 ". "
I think Teresia must be a second wife, as the chit says Herman was born 19 sept, mother was Sara.
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https://digital.onb.ac.at/RepViewer/viewer.faces?doc=DTL_8216242&order=1&view=SINGLE
Butschowitz directory
Moritz Nowatschek Eisenhdr
Probably abbreviation of eisenhändler - ironmonger
From 1908 directory name below
https://digital.onb.ac.at/RepViewer/viewer.faces?doc=DTL_8216242&order=1&view=SINGLE
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Birth record of Johanna or Hanni Nowatschek , Dau of Moritz and Elizabeth nee Bratmann, Dau of Wolf Bratman of Gross Meseritsch 17 Dec 1864
Bučovice (Butschowitz) births
No 4 on page, house number 14
https://vademecum.nacr.cz/vademecum/permalink?xid=72fcd72a-8028-486e-b56f-7bccd0d5ed69&scan=853ef3d73b75638b299141c6a361deab&parentType=9019
Gross Meseritsch, now Velké Meziříčí
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velk%C3%A9_Mezi%C5%99%C3%AD%C4%8D%C3%AD
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https://www.mza.cz/scitacioperaty/digisada/detail/6569?image=226206010-000712-000000-00000N-000015-02-VY0568-00030.jp2
Moritz and Elizabeth with daughter Johanna and their other children, in the 1880 census of Bučovice. Name written as Novaček, wife's name is Czech version of Elizabeth and her birth place agrees with the information sent in previous post. There is another family in the property who may or may not be related.
The family are German speakers and can all read and write. Moritz has an ironmonger shop.
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Another resource for researching Jewish families in Bohemia or Moravia is familianten books
https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/AustriaCzech/FamiliantsinBohemia.html
There does not seem to be any for Ivanovich, that of Bučovice has limited information, but the record for Velké Mezirící is very informative. There is an index at the back of the volume, with several entries for the name Bratman, including Elizabeth daughter of Wolf. You will find his wife's name, their dates of birth, date of marriage, some death dates and causes of death, lists of children with their dates of birth. Last column notes about children's marriage. Record is in German, and found on the same site that holds the Jewish BMD.
This takes you to the actual volume
https://vademecum.nacr.cz/vademecum/permalink?xid=c4eb04dd-5535-4e94-bc4f-22d49dd4297b&scan=1a995f13d02c7a407bf6b9c77bb0cf64&parentType=9019
You can navigate with the thumbnails or the little white page box at the top.
Hint: once you've had a look at Wolf Bratman, look for Lazar Blum and you're back to the 1700's!!
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fiddlerslass please excuse me for not replying to your wonderful February posts. Just getting back to family history again today. I am delighted with all the links you have given me and the time and effort of your search. Thank you so much.
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Afternoon fiddlerslass. Just a quick update to tell you that we went to Ivanovice last week. A tiny town a quick train ride from Vienna via Bruno. I hadn't really done any huge further research but it was moving for my husband to be in his grandfather's birth town. House 21 is gone and replaced by a car park but, we got a feeling of what the houses must have looked like by examining older premises on the same road. The graveyard really is a sad site but again an emotional time. The vegetation is so high and land boggy so we didn't go too far in to the stones. While in Vienna we went to the church where Ludwig (Israel) was married and were treated to an amazing service conducted in English for a packed Negro community. Wonderful uplifting drumming and singing. The church is beautiful. We have a lot of research and work to do and it will give us excuses to return to Ivanovice and Bruno.