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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Offaly (Kings) => Topic started by: markova21 on Sunday 29 January 23 20:51 GMT (UK)
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Been trying to find where my ancestors are buried for years, but it is proving impossible. My male ancestor, Patrick Brien died in Munny, Parsonstown, Kings County on 26 April 1879. Gives Munny as his address. His wife Anne, Nee Dunne, also from Munny, died in 1912 in Derrinboy. I can understand it being difficult to find where Patrick is buried, but Anne only died in 1912. One of her children, Laurence, died in 1915 and lived at the same address as his mother in Derrinboy. Where on earth would they be buried? Can anyone help? Also. On Family Search I came across a Brien family from Munny, and a lot of them are buried in a churchyard called Thomastown. But I don't think it exists anymore. There is a Thomastown Desmene, or there was. My ancestor, Patrick Brien was also up before Thomastown Courthouse in 1875 for allowing two asses he was in charge of from walking along a road. He was fined one Schilling. So as well as a burial ground, there was also a courthouse in Thomastown. But it is not on any map. I have a book of a map of Offaly from the early 19th century, and this place called Thomastown isn't on it.
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as far as I can see there are two townlands named Thomastown in county Offaly, one near Edenderry in Ballymacwilliam parish, and the other north east of Birr in Drumcullen civil parish named Thomastown demesne.
There's no church or grave yard shown on historic maps in the first Thomastown, a private chapel is shown adjacent to Thomastown house in Thomastown Demesne townland which may have had burials, but I suspect for the use of the residents of the house.
Petty sessions were held in Edenderry and various courts in Birr/Parsonsown
The old OS maps, about 1840, show a small village of Rath with a court house and constabulary barracks just west of Thomastown demesne, also a Catholic Chapel and further west a old graveyard and site of old church, the townland is Tinnacross. I cant see any sign of this graveyard on later maps
As far as I can see from the death records (if I have the right one - Army pensioner?) Patrick died at Money in Frankfort registrar's district (part of Parsonstown district), so most likely buried near there. Money is a large townland, over 1,000 acres in Ballyboy parish and includes the town of Frankfort, it's located south of Frankfort and not that far east of Thomastown demesne townland.
p.s. Derrinboy is also in Ballyboy civil parish
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Frankford townland encompasses a lot of the town of Kilcormac.
https://www.townlands.ie/offaly/ballyboy/ballyboy/kilcormac/frankford/
As athacliath62 said, he died in Money townland.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1879/06516/4876785.pdf
Money t/l is only 3 km south of Kilcormac so look for his burial in that area.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4245720#map=13/53.1588/-7.7256
There's a graveyard (St Joseph's cemetery) just south of the centre of town.
See here: https://arcg.is/1jujaX1
Pan up to see Kilcormac.
MapGenie 25 Inch in Basemap Gallery.
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link to Tinnacross townland with that courthouse, barracks, RC Chapel and old gravyard, adjacent to Thomastown : https://arcg.is/0rjD490
(switch to the 6" first edition map on the layers menu)
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Hello. I'm a dinosaur at posting links to people. This is what it says and where the record was found. Ireland, Petty Session Court Register 1818-1918. Pat Brien. P.S.Order book CSPS 1/1/268. No. 311. Pat Brien Pensioner. Defendant. "That on 21st day of August 1875 at Thomastown in the Kings County the defendant did allow 2 asses to wander on the public road. Fined one Schilling. " Or words to that effect .
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Someone I know who lives in Munny ( as it's now spelled) told me there used to be a market in Munny years ago.
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I wasn't expecting to find a courthouse at that location, they are usually in towns, initially I thought maybe a mixup with another Thomastown, i.e. in Co. Kilkenny. This one seems to have been named after the adjacent townland.
There are lots of spelling variants for place names, on OS maps etc the townland is spelt Money, you can see some of the alternates on Logainm (placename database) : https://www.logainm.ie/en/41232
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I've just spotted another graveyard, it's a little east / north east of Rath village in Raheenglass townland and borders Thomastown (Demesne). It seems to date from a little later as it's not shown on the older maps.. but might be worth considering : https://arcg.is/H9zCD
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Thank you. A local amateur historian seemed convinced Patrick Brien would be buried in Ballyboy churchyard. I even went there, looking around it one afternoon. She said the local parish priest would have burial records, but that she had asked him again and again to look through the records, but he never bothered. I even wrote to him myself and he never replied. But then on Family Search I found all these Briens buried in Thomastown. It says they are all from Money/Munny.
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The Ballyboy churchyard is a Church of Ireland churchyard, and my family were Catholic. The historian said that even though they were Catholic they would still be buried in Ballyboy, which doesn't make sense to me at all. And then I found all the Thomastown records where lots of Briens from Munny are buried.
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Ballyboy church (now derelict) and graveyard.
https://arcg.is/1jX1G1 (MapGenie 25 Inch)
https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/buildings-search/building/14816005/saint-marys-church-ballyboy-ballyboy-ba-by-ballyboy-offaly
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The Ballyboy churchyard is a Church of Ireland churchyard, and my family were Catholic. The historian said that even though they were Catholic they would still be buried in Ballyboy, which doesn't make sense to me at all. And then I found all the Thomastown records where lots of Briens from Munny are buried.
very old graveyards were often shared, for all that lived in the parish of all denominations
some of these date from before the reformation
If your family were Catholic their burials may not have been recorded in the registers of this Church of Ireland parish
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Registers for Ballyboy Church of Ireland are held by the RCB Library, some of which are transcripts. There's a note on their latest list re 'Inquiry in 1951 showed that no copies were then available locally but that a vestry minute book, 1710-1789, containing baptismal entries to 1845 had been lodged in the RCBL.'
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Hello. I'm a dinosaur at posting links to people. This is what it says and where the record was found. Ireland, Petty Session Court Register 1818-1918. Pat Brien. P.S.Order book CSPS 1/1/268. No. 311. Pat Brien Pensioner. Defendant. "That on 21st day of August 1875 at Thomastown in the Kings County the defendant did allow 2 asses to wander on the public road. Fined one Schilling. " Or words to that effect .
A minor point .
The one I see reads:
“That on 21st day of August 1875 at Streamstown in the Kings County Defendant did suffer his three asses to wander on the Public Road.”
Fined one Penny of costs.
Streamstown
https://www.townlands.ie/offaly/eglish/drumcullen/killyon/streamstown/
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A minor point .
The one I see reads:
“That on 21st day of August 1875 at Streamstown in the Kings County Defendant did suffer his three asses to wander on the Public Road.”
Fined one Penny of costs.
Streamstown
https://www.townlands.ie/offaly/eglish/drumcullen/killyon/streamstown/
and gives his residence as Munny. The court is Thomastown (King's Co)
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Yes, of course. :)
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Registers for Ballyboy Church of Ireland are held by the RCB Library, some of which are transcripts.
Here's the link to the List of Parish Registers.
See Ballyboy on page 12.
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegisters/PARISHREGISTERS.pdf
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Many thanks for all the replies. I will have to take my time and look over it all.
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Was thinking earlier about something that might be significant. The family from what I can gather, were the poorest of the poor. I know in the Valuation Office records, they had no Lesser or landlord. A Genealogist explained to me this meant the property they lived in was so dilapidated they were charged no rent. If they were that poor, isn't it highly likely they were all buried in an unmarked, mass paupers grave? The reason I thought of this is because my half sister's dad , who died in Manchester in 1968, is buried in a mass paupers grave in Stretford Cemetery. I know Patrick owned two asses, or was in the care of them on the day he was caught allowing them to wander on the road. I understand only the very poorest of people owned asses. Could they all be buried in a mass paupers grave ? And all the ones I found on the Family Search website, that are buried together, including one who died literally the day before Patrick, on 26 April 1879, could it be that Patrick is buried in the same place too?
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Was thinking earlier about something that might be significant. The family from what I can gather, were the poorest of the poor. I know in the Valuation Office records, they had no Lesser or landlord. A Genealogist explained to me this meant the property they lived in was so dilapidated they were charged no rent. If they were that poor, isn't it highly likely they were all buried in an unmarked, mass paupers grave? The reason I thought of this is because my half sister's dad , who died in Manchester in 1968, is buried in a mass paupers grave in Stretford Cemetery. I know Patrick owned two asses, or was in the care of them on the day he was caught allowing them to wander on the road. I understand only the very poorest of people owned asses. Could they all be buried in a mass paupers grave ? And all the ones I found on the Family Search website, that are buried together, including one who died literally the day before Patrick, on 26 April 1879, could it be that Patrick is buried in the same place too?
Several things:
You say Patrick was the poorest of the poor? But he was an Army pensioner, and owned two asses?
That doesn't sound like the poorest of the poor to me.
Next, there are no Briens/O'Brien's in Money in Griffith's Valuation. Yet there are multiple Briens from Money listed as buried in Thomastown at around the same time that your Patrick died?
What are their names, DOD, and ages? Are any of their deaths registered? What were their occupations?
What records did you find for burials in Thomastown on Familysearch, and what is the source of these records? I can't seem to locate any.
Finally, can you say which Catholic parish Money lies in? Birr? Kilcormac? ??
[To answer my own question - Kilcormac]
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"Thomastown" appears to be the church of St. John the Baptist, in Rath, on the cross roads with the townland of Thomastown. One of two churches in the parish of Eglish and Drumcullen.
https://www.eglishdrumcullen.com/ (https://www.eglishdrumcullen.com/)
Not the parish Money lies in, which is Kilcormac.
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His wife Anne, Nee Dunne, also from Munny, died in 1912 in Derrinboy. I can understand it being difficult to find where Patrick is buried, but Anne only died in 1912. One of her children, Laurence, died in 1915 and lived at the same address as his mother in Derrinboy.
I'm having difficulty with this. The 1901 and 1911 census returns show no Brien/O'Brien's at all in the townland of Derrinboy.
Further, there is only one Anne Brien death registered in Birr Union in 1912, this one, in Ferbane dsitrict, aged 80
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1912/05364/4495683.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1912/05364/4495683.pdf)
A farmer's widow - hardly the poorest of the poor, so not your Anne? I can't identify the townland address, but it isn't Derrinboy.
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One of her children, Laurence, died in 1915 and lived at the same address as his mother in Derrinboy.
Likewise, the only registered death I can find for a Laurence Brien 1915/16 in Birr Union is this one, and it isn't in Derrinboy.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1915/05265/4461017.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1915/05265/4461017.pdf)
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Birth of Laurence Brien in Money in 1865
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03562/2311925.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03562/2311925.pdf)
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Birth of Laurence Brien in Money in 1865
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03562/2311925.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03562/2311925.pdf)
Finding that birth allowed me to locate his baptism - 27 August 1865, parish of Kilcormac.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635061#page/210/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635061#page/210/mode/1up)
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Patrick Brien and Anne Dunne were married in the Cathedral of the Assumption, Carlow, on 1? July, 1863.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634430#page/25/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634430#page/25/mode/1up)
Names of parents and addresses given.
Patrick's parents: Laurence and Elizabeth, of Blackwood, Co. Kildare.
Anne's parents: Michael and Margaret of Mooney, Frankford [Frankford being the district of Kilcormac, Co. Offaly]
So Anne was a native of Money, but Patrick was from Co. Kildare.
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Patrick and Anne's children:
Patrick, baptized ?/9/1863, Kilcormac
Laurence, do. 27/8/1865, do.
Michael, do. ?/2/1868, do.
Bernard, do. ?/11/1872, do.
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What must be Patrick's death was in the Kilcormac parish registers all along, 25/4/1879.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635060#page/75/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635060#page/75/mode/1up)
Suggesting to me that he is buried there. Which would make sense, as her family was from there.
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Duplicate
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Regarding the Dunne family in Money, Griffith'Valuation for Birr PLU was published in August 1854.
It lists multiple Dunnes in Money, with three entries for Michael Dunne. Two for just land, and one for a house and garden. A substantial house, not at all that of a poor laborer.