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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: garngad on Saturday 28 January 23 21:14 GMT (UK)
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My maternal 2nd grt grand parents have proved elusive till now....I could not get any certificates to prove who they where and whence they came from I had their names/surnames from my mother's middle names also certificates confirming who my grand mothers parents where but her fathers name was proving difficult to trace document wise the only proof I had was in the census returns regarding his siblings and parents they where all there 1881 1891 1901 as they should be, then his marriage cert in 1906 states his fathers name and occupation again correct as census a small change in his mother's name but only an added middle name (which aided and frustrated me) then his death cert in 1937 which again reiterated both names, so i have been searching those surnames to no avail or wrong family lines till now........Im not asking for any one to spend credits on certificates because I believe i have all or all thats needed for proof but I do need someone to help me understand why the deception if its not to strong of a phrase and decide how to put it down on my tree sorry to be long winded but i will start with known facts.
John Morrison b.1885 in Cathcart........ have his marriage 1906 and death 1937 but no birth found see attachments.........the census's are as follows.
1881................1891..................1901................1911
John Morrison 26 36 50 74
Marion Morrison 23 33 40 53
William Morrison 2 12 20 -
Evelina Morrison 0 10 - 28
Barbara Morrison - 8 17 -
John Morrison(my grt grand father) - 5 15 15?
Marion Morrison - 2 11 -
Lydia Morrison - 0 8 -
Edwin Morrison - - - -
Edwin Morrison - - 0 ?
Mary Morrison - - 2 13
So most of this is correct but the 1911 census ages are out and Edwin is mis conscribed as John I think and in 1891 there is a boarder aged 20 named Robert Shaw (taken as Marion's brother) all census's are near accurate for John householder's job as a ship's painter/caulker (or house painter in 1) also through out they state birth places as England for John senior Govan for wife Marion (confirmed birth cert) England for 1st 2 children then Govan for Barbara Cathcart for John and Marion then Govan for Edwin and Mary (1st Edwin I found later born then died so was not on any Census 1911 census stated Marion had 9 children 8 alive and married for 33 years).
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The 1921 census has John aged 77 Marion 66 a Philip Johnston and Mary Johnston aged 23 so everything seemed to tie in OK but I still could find no Marriage no Birth or Death certificates except for John Morrison born 1885 death cert, I even found Marion senior down in Liverpool with family in 1871 then a close link for the 1881 census in Wellington Shropshire for the first census but only Marion birth place tied in correct so after countless wrong downloads of certificates I eventually found them but every birth (except John? senior) and mother Marion (which I have) states their last name as McGaughie every christian name and age and place of birth seems correct but why...why state all births with I think their correct surname but for decades carry on calling yourself by another this led me to find John senior's death in 1924 Govan his real name is Edwin Clark McGaughie then mother Marion's death in 1929 Govan she is down as Marion McLean Morrison formerly McGaughie which I had dismissed years previously as i couldn't find her death cert for parents name, since then I have found their children's BDM certs but some have reverted to McGaughie in marriage and death and some state Morrison also some state mother's maiden name as McLean others Shaw it's Mclean Shaw on husband's death cert which also states his parents as John Clark McGaughie county council clerk ? deceased and Lydia McGaughie ms Wells informant is son John McGaughie 30 Queen St Govan which is where my granny's father was living (1925 valuation roll) and where my granny was born but i cant find no McGaughie resident so have I got the right information data to end my search or not ?........ why cant I tie any Morrison's to the date's on census's given or McGaughie's either is this just a way round anti Irish sounding names all married in protestant church's I havent found any Catholic connection's till my grandmothers marriage I hope I have explained in enough detail and even if I can't find an answer hope it aids other's in their searches. Thanks for reading and any help that's forwarded.
P.S. think I also have found a marriage for Edwin Clark McGachey (and hopefully Marion) in 1877 Bolton Lancashire England which ties in with a census record for the birth of son William in 1878/9 in Little Hulton which I believe is in the Bolton district.
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The 1921 Census Mary Johnston turns out to be daughter Mary Morrison born Mary Ann McGaughie 1898 in Govan she went on to marry Philip Johnston in 1920 in Govan.
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Amended by me -
You have gone to a lot of effort to give all this information.
It is rather overwhelming, and difficult to use.
Who are you researching?
"My maternal 2nd grt grand parents have proved elusive till now"
Who is the great grand parent, son/daughter of the maternal 2nd grt grand parents?
Is he the John MORRISON, died 1937, whose death record is attached, and you are
working with the names of parents on that certificate?
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yes sorry typing and thinking got muddled.... John Morrison grt grand father according to marriage in 1906 aged 20 so born 1885/6 father is John Morrison (house painter) and Marion McLean Morrison ms Shaw both alive.
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I believe this to be his birth cert as I have been unable to trace a John Morrison born 1885/6 with named parents.
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Thank you.
Marriage certificate, 1906, what information do you see for witnesses?
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A Thomas McCluskey and Margaret Collins no family connection poss friends. Have posted his death cert here as well.
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Is there a second marriage for mother Marion McLean SHAW?
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Not that I have found I have struggled with the McGaughie surname in Census's and it has only came up in the births recently found plenty of Morrison's but none tie in together with the names posted I did look for a second marriage for Marion.
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This is the only death cert that i could find to tie in with Marion Shaw in Glasgow for the time period the witness is Eveline Docherty daughter a Eveline McGaughie married a Thomas Docherty in 1901 witnessed by a William Morrison and a Janet Gillon.
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Might be useful -
Using Ancestry Scotland Census 1901, at 10 Alma Street, address for your John MORRISON at 1906, has James MORRISON 28 years and John MORRISON 20 years, both born Ireland, shipyard labourers, boarders in household of Jane HUNTER and children.
I think that 10 Alma Street is a tenement with many people living there.
What names does your John MORRISON give to his children?
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.
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if I'm correct in 1901 census my John Morrison (1885) is at 20 Victoria St in the same tenement is the Cosgrove family and his future wife Eliza(beth) my grt grand mother.
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There should be something here to work with. The address, 20 Victoria At, is the same as address on Eveline McGAUGHIE, age 20 years, 1901
Ancestry Scotland Census 1891 at 20 Victoria St Govan Lanarkshire
MORRISON John 36y paperhanger b. England
MORRISON Marion 33y b. Govan
MORRISON William 12y b. England
MORRISON Evelina 10y b. England
MORRISON Barbra 8y b. Govan
MORRISON Marion 2y b. Clarbestone Lanarkshire
MORRISON John 5y b. Clarbestone Lanarkshire
MORRISON Lydia 3w b. Govan
SHAW Robert 20y bdr. app. caulker b. England
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Yes that is what I have as my initial Morrison line.clabertsone could be clarkston but should be Cathcart.
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This looks like the 1891 MORRISON family in an earlier Census. LITTLEHALES and MORRISON families at one residence.
Ancestry Census England 1881 at Wellington Shropshire
LITTLEHALES Richard 45y
LITTLEHALES Mary M L 45y b. Ireland
LITTLEHALES Sarah A dau 7y b. Hadley Salop
LITTLEHALES Elizabeth dau 13y " "
and adopted sons
MORRISON n.k head visitor 26y painter b. Ireland
MORRISON Marrion visitor 23y b. Scotland
MORRISON Willie son 2y b. Birkenhead Cheshire
MORRISON Evelina dau 10m b. Wellington Shropshire
GRO births
MCGACHIE, William Clarke mms. SHAW
1878 JunQ Bolton Vol 08C Page 344
MCGHIE, Eveline mms. MCLEAN
1880 SepQ Wellington Salop Union Vol 06A Page 789
FreeBDM SepQ 1877 Bolton 8c 351
McGACHEY Edwin Clark
SHAW Marion McLane
FreeBDM birth
LITTLEHALES, Elizabeth mms. MCLEAN
1867 JunQ Wellington Salop Union Vol 06A Page 798
LITTLEHALES, Sarah Amy mms. MACLANE
1873 SepQ Wellington Salop Union Vol 06A Page 762
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https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
17 Sep 1877 St Mary the Virgin, Deane, Lancashire, England
Edwin Clark McGACHEY 24, Paper Hanger, Bachelor, Daubhill Rumworth
Marion McLane SHAW 20, Domestic Servant, Spinster, Daubhill Rumworth
Groom's Father: Alexander McGACHEY, Farmer
Bride's Father: William SHAW, Corker
Witness: James MARSH Mary MARSH
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Marion McLane SHAW and Edwin Clark McGACHEY marry in 1877, and there are two children born to this marriage.
By 1881 Marion is living with John MORRISON, and this union continues until the death of John MORRISON, 1937, and the MORRISON-SHAW children can be seen in the Census.
Using FreeBDM I am not seeing a John MORRISON marrying Marion, or variation of the name, between the births of Eveline and Barbra and I suspect that there is no marriage to find.
I wonder what happened to Edwin?
The Census describes families, and the MORRISON household includes, and names, as MORRISON, the two children born to Edwin McCACHEY.
There are no name changes or deception. This was a common way to name families in the Census, a social description of a blended family.
At marriage, Eveline uses her own father's name. Brother William probably did as well. A marriage certificate was one of the few occasions when people recorded information about themselves.
It might be interesting to see how Eveline records her name on certificates as mother of her children? MORRISON or McGACHEY?
The death certificates show an attempt to include all the names that Marion used, but might not be understood by the informant.
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By 1881 Marion is living with John MORRISON, and this union continues until the death of John MORRISON, 1937, and the MORRISON-SHAW children can be seen in the Census.
The John MORRISON that died in 1937 was the son, not the father. Edwin McGAUGHIE died in 1924.
https://postimg.cc/6TmmcKHc
Debra :)
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Edwin's address, 23 Albert Street, is the same address on the 1925 electoral roll for Mrs Marion MORRISON, James M'GAUCHIE and Jeanie M'GAUCHIE.
Debra :)
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I have a Barbara McGaughie born in 1882 but nothing else for Barbara have I found yet.
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A John Clark McGaughie 1885 Cathcart......to Edwin Clark McGaughie and Marion McClean
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A Marion Clark McGaughie parents Edwin Clark McGaughie and Marion McLean McGaughie ms Shaw in Clarkston.
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A Lydia McGaughie parents Edwin Clark McGaughie and Marion McLean McGaughie ms Shaw in Govan
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1896 birth of a Edwin Clark McGaughie born to Edwin Clark McGaughie and Marion McClean McGaughie ms Shaw in Govan
Also in 1893 there was born a Edwin McGaughie to a mother ms Shaw who died in 1896? in Govan
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1898 birth of Mary Ann Peebles Clark McGaughie to Edwin Clark McGaughie and Marion Mclean McGaughie ms Shaw in Govan
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All these births 1st naming patterns follow closley to my Morrison names which is on the census's provided yet I cant locate the certificates to prove but I have the McGaughie birth lines but no Cenus information for the family which is very odd.
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in 1901 Eviline McGaughie marries a Thomas Docherty in Govan parents given are John McGaughie and Mary Mclean McGaughie ms Shaw.
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I have a marriage in 1907 govan of a Marion Clark McGaughie to Roderick McGhee her parents are Edwin McGaughie and Marion McGaughie ms McLean witness is a Eveline Clark McGaughie ? who I thought married a Docherty in 1901 (see pervious post).
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1910 a Lydia Clark McGaughie marries a Patrick McCarrick in Govan parents given as Edwin Clark McGaughie and Marion Mclean McGaughie ms Shaw witnessed by Eviline Clark McGaughie ? and a Peter MaCauley.
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1919 marriage of Edwin Morrison to Minnie Cunningham parents given as John Morrison and Marion Morrison ms Shaw witness's look unrelated.
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1920 Mary Ann Morrison marries Philip Johnston her parents given as John Morrison and Marion Mclean Morrison ms Shaw witness's Thomas McShane and Catherine Murray or McShane in Govan.
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1924 death of Edwin McGaughie wife Marion McLean ms Shaw in Govan.
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I want to thank everyone who has looked more so those who have contributed I know i have blurted too much out at once and when I'm trying to look at 2 or 3 bits of data I can get confused I'm not sure if I'm looking at 2 familes with very similar timelines or one family using two names it seems very odd to have one family well documented in the Census for 3/4 decades and one not (I realise spelling mistakes,mis conscribed names dates etc) and another so well documented in birth and marriage,death but no Census data for the same area's just hoping someone could help me to figure it out before I run out of sanity (or money).
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I have a Barbara McGaughie born in 1882 but nothing else for Barbara have I found yet.
Barbara and her husband were also at 23 Albert Street in 1925.
Marriage
MCCONNELOGUE, CHARLES
MCGAUCHIE/GALLACHER, BARBARA CLARK
1921
644 / 21 / 225
Govan
Her first marriage was in 1906.
GALLACHER, HUGH
MCGAUCHIE, BARBARA CLARK
1906
646 / 2 / 33
Govan
I wouldn't worry about the married women using their maiden surname as it was quite normal in Scotland.
Debra :)
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Yes thanks Debra as I still live here and have known that married women can legally use both names I'm grateful for you finding her thanks again. it's weird but I have a later relative of my maternal side who married a McConnellegue in 1948 whos mother (i havent looked into yet w as a Gallacher interesting thanks again.
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This is the only death cert that i could find to tie in with Marion Shaw in Glasgow for the time period the witness is Eveline Docherty daughter a Eveline McGaughie married a Thomas Docherty in 1901 witnessed by a William Morrison and a Janet Gillon.
Finding all this a bit bewildering, but noting that Marion McLean Shaw's death certificate describes her only as widow of Edwin McGaughie and does not mention John Morrison seems to suggest that Marion never married a John Morrison.
Also Eveline gives her father's given name as John on her marriage, which could hint that John Morrison and Edwin McGauchie are indeed one and the same.
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If John MORRISON and Edwin are not the same person then how would Edwin die at the MORRISON address?
Debra :)
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this is my dilemma Forfarian and Dundee (Debra) i seemed to have to many documentation stating conflicting yet similar facts and I cant seem to separate my thoughts from one to another was hoping some of you here could see where i was going wrong and put me back on the right path I feel as im opening another familes line and downloading what will be a whole bunch of data for nothing when i need to concentrate on my exact line one or two wrong ones i expected but im on dozens just for this line already but I know you all have had the same of not similar paths so thanks again for the time,thoughts and help.
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You must be banging your head over this, garngad!
I was hoping to get some insight for you by trying to find the roots of Edwin/John, but early years similarly confusing ;D
A Lydia Wells (matching the mother's details on Edwin's 1924 death reg.) married a John Clark (no McGauchie) on 19 Dec 1835 Alverstoke, Hampshire, England. Note that Edwin's 1877 marriage showed father as Alexander but death reg as John.
I think this is the 1851 census entry for Edwin Clark and his family in Portsea, Hampshire. John Morrison gave his birth place as Hampshire, England (not Hampshire, pongland as Ancestry have transcribed it ::)):
John Clark 43 Seamans Schoolmaster R N
Lydia Clark 45
Thomas A Clark 23
George Clark 19
Henry Clark 14
Edwin W Clark 12
Mary A Clark 10
Sarah J Clark 8
www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGPC-Z28
John Clark shows alive in 1871 so he must have died 1871-81. His occupation then looks a good match to what shows on Edwin's 1924 death reg: Accountant Sup. & Registrar's Clerk.
There are some additonal details on the family is you click on the links to the right of the page.
Lydia shows as Clark and a widow by the time of the 1881 and 1891 censuses (from those links). No reference to be seen for the surname McGaughie or Morrison :-\
No help this info!
Monica
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From what we have for Edwin/John, I think this is his birth entry on the index:
CLARK, EDWIN WALTER Mother's maiden name WELLS
GRO Reference: 1848 M Quarter in PORTSEA ISLAND UNION Volume 07 Page 147
Confirmation of that middle name, makes me think that this is also him:
UK, Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services, 1848-1939
Edwin Walter Clark
Birth 6 Jun 1848 Portsmouth, Hants
First Service Date: 1 Jan 1873
First Ship Served On: Achilles
Last Service Date: 13 Jun 1877
Last Ship Served On: Orontes
Service Number: 50062
There is a physical description for him. Not tall for sure at 5' 1, fair and grey eyes. His trade is that of a painter and grainer. This fits very well with what you have for him in later years.
Edwin's marriage to Marion was on 17 Sept 1877, from the info posted by wivenhoe. So, his last service date of 13 June that year all fits.
Monica
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I think this is the 1851 census entry for Edwin Clark and his family in Portsea, Hampshire. John Morrison gave his birth place as Hampshire, England
Actually I think that's the 1861, when Edwin would have been 12.
They were in Oxford Street, Portsea, in 1851, Edwin aged 3.
In 1871 Edwin Clarke, AB, aged 24, is on board the Minotaur of Spithead, at Portsea Island.
Looks as if Lydia died in Portsea in 1899, aged 83.
So do we think that Edwin had three different names - Edwin Walter Clark, Edwin Clark McGauchie and John Morrison?
I see that there was a notorious murder in 1886, involving the wife and daughter of an Edwin Walter Clark. (The murderer was Walter Edwin Wright, just to confuse matters.) If this had been before his marriage it might have been understandable that he would change his name, but it was well after this one married as Edwin McGauchie.
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Yes, we do! And I have no idea why Edwin played around with his names :-\ Was he trying to hide his identity or what was the purpose I wonder.
Marion Shaw seems more straightforward.
Her birth:
Marion Shaw
Birth 8 Mar 1857 Govan, Lanark
Father: William Shaw
Mother: Marion Mcgregor
By 1871, the family are down in Birkenhead so she is well placed for that 1877 marriage:
William Shaw 42 Boiler maker b. Glasgow
Marion Shaw 38 b. Scotland
Marion Shaw 14 b. Scotland
William Shaw 8 b. Ireland
Barbara Shaw 6 b. Ireland
Ellen Shaw 4 b. England
Robert Shaw 9 months b. England
I haven't looked for the family's 1881 entry but in 1891, William, boiler maker, wife Marion and some of their children are back in Govan and living at 78 Queen St.
So, as far as we can see, her family is easy enough to find with the details we have.
The middle name of McLean for Marion Shaw comes from her maternal grandmother, Marion McLean.
Monica
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Thank you Marion,Forfarian,Dundee/Debra and Wivenhoe I had all the bits of info Wellington/Liverpool/Bolton/Govan but just could not get my head around which bits fitted the Morrison family the link was Marion McLean/Shaw flitting between Morrison and McGaughie proved to much for me so I reached out here and you now have added more headache but at least it's more info so thanks again,the English data I only have access to LDS site or FreeCen and BDM I have no account with Ancestry though I have a DNA guest/tree I was reluctant to add the McGaughie link in case it was totally false but the more I look at the Census names for Morrison and not finding the correct BDM then look at the McGaughie BDM but finding no Census links just had me thinking they where one and the same, now I have even further to go back Im sure there was a reason for the name jumping.
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Another indication that the family's are the same was though unable to find relevant birth lines for the Morrison's to fit the Census data when I look at the 1891 Census Lydia Morrison is down as 3 weeks old if I'm reading right when I look at Lydia McGaughie certificate she is born 15th March 1891 it fits with the Census being took on the 5th of April that year.
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John Clark McGaughie is born 1885 in Sheddon Cathcart but I cant locate no McGaughie's on the valuation roll for that year but there is a John Morrison no occupation is shown though.
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Have now found Marion McLean Shaw (1857) parents they are William Shaw (1829) died 27 dec 1893 in Govan at 46 Victoria St and Marion McGregor (1832) she died 8 oct 1911 in Govan at 139 Elder St informant is a B McDonald daughter which prob is Barbara (1864) Marion (1857) was the informant for her husband. You where correct Monica Marion McLean Shaw grand mother was Marion McLean so many thanks for that lead.
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If it wasn't for all the names changing, your research would have been so much easier ;) With all the official documents you have gathered, you haven't left any stones unturned! Must have been really confusing when you were starting out...
The question remains though, what were the reasons that led Edwin Walter Clark to use different aliases ???
Monica
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Still to be determined I'm afraid but for now I have a concrete connection established there is more connections popping up on familysearch as i type so you never know.
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In 1861 the census record for John and Lydia CLARK has his name and occupation crossed out and the word 'insane' added. There is a John CLARK, schoolmaster, as a patient at the Knowle asylum near Fareham. The age was originally recorded as 'unknown' which was then crossed out and the age 30 added. Even though the age is wrong I think that it is probably him.
In the County Asylums and Hospitals admission register there is a John CLARK who was admitted 19 Sep 1856 and discharged 10 June 1862, recovered.
Their last three children, Edwin (1848), Mary Ann (1850), and Sarah Jane (1852) were not baptised at the same church as the others. Henry born 1845 was not baptised until 1856 and you would think that they would all be done together if the others had not already been baptised.
Debra :)
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So what's your thinking on that information you have posted then Dundee/Debra....
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There are some researchers around on the Wells side of the family such as here www.wikitree.com/wiki/Wells-12951
New lines for you to follow up on and confirm at some point.
Monica
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Thanks Monica thats great of you cheers just to add I have checked through the marriages of the Morrison/McGaughie childrens named some use one or the other surnames but what stood out was the two oldest William and Eveline both get married in 1901 in Govan William as Morrison and Eveline as McGaughie both give the same address 20 Victoria St and William is a witness on Eveline's marriage similar in 1919 Edwin Morrison marries his address is 23 Albert St and in 1920 Mary Ann Morrison marries and gives 23 Albert St and in 1921 Barbara McGaughie remarries after being widowed and gives 23 Albert St, I think there is not much doubt now that they are all the same family McGaughie/Morrison hopefully it will out itself at one point. PS I should have said maybe they are all Clark's.
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:o One possibility....
Could Edwin have been married? He joined the Royal Navy in 1870.
There is this marriage:
3rd Qrt 1866
Edwin W CLARK
Portsea
Vol. 2b/ Pg. 642
Two possible brides: Elizabeth Thorn and Maria A Humby
Edwin would have been young at the time of this marriage, c. 19.
Of course, this marriage needs confirmation to make sure that it is the correct Edwin.
If correct, first wife could well have died before 1877 when he married again in 1877. Although, didn't the register show him as a bachelor? Need to double check that.
Could go a long way to explaining the various aliases I would suggest...
Monica
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https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
17 Sep 1877 St Mary the Virgin, Deane, Lancashire, England
Edwin Clark McGACHEY 24, Paper Hanger, Bachelor, Daubhill Rumworth
Marion McLane SHAW 20, Domestic Servant, Spinster, Daubhill Rumworth
Groom's Father: Alexander McGACHEY, Farmer
Bride's Father: William SHAW, Corker
Witness: James MARSH Mary MARSH
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Aye that is a good find he could have been married still married when committed to the 2nd with Marion Shaw who may have been pregnant but why when he is so far away from the south of England resident in Scotland did he carry it on maybe he deserted his Navy career and would have been wanted wherever he went esp if his work was still on ships as a caulker/painter .
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He looks to have had a standard Navy discharge in 1877 from what we had earlier:
UK, Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services, 1848-1939
Edwin Walter Clark
Birth 6 Jun 1848 Portsmouth, Hants
First Service Date: 1 Jan 1873
First Ship Served On: Achilles
Last Service Date: 13 Jun 1877
Last Ship Served On: Orontes
Service Number: 50062
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However, bigamy was a crimininal offence resulting in a trial and jail. This may explain his need to a. be in Scotland and b. play around with his identity.
However, that 1866 marriage needs confirmation as does whether his wife (if correct) was alive or deceased in 1877.
I can see a couple of births in Portsea with mother's maiden name showing as Thorn (?Elizabeth) but can't see anything so far in the censuses for 1871 and 1881 to help further:
CLARK, EDWARD JOHN JAMES THORN
GRO Reference: 1867 M Quarter in PORTSEA ISLAND Volume 02B Page 440
Added: Likely death for him: Deaths 3rd Qrt 1868
CLARK Edward John J 1 Portsea 2b 306
CLARK, ELIZABETH TEDINA THORN
GRO Reference: 1872 J Quarter in PORTSEA ISLAND Volume 02B Page 491
Added: A further early death it seems: Deaths 1st Qrt 1873
Clark Elizabeth Tedina 0 Portsea 2b 299
Monica
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In 1871, at 115 Surrey Street in Portsea, we have Elizabeth Clark. Given the description of her husband, I would say that it is very likely Edwin. He had already joined the Navy by now and showing as Forfarian found with the RN on the 1871 census. First born had died and before the birth of baby Elizabeth, Elizabeth looks to be living by herself:
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I can't see any other children after the birth of Elizabeth Jnr in 1872.
So, the question for me is...what happened to Elizabeth Snr after the death of her daughter in 1873 I wonder?
I think this might be Elizabeth Thorn in 1861 with her family www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MWM6-725 The address for this entry is showing as 111 Surrey Street, Portsea. She showed in 1871 at 115 Surrey Street. Her family were still living at 111 Surrey Street in 1871.
Monica
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The trouble is Monica though we have Edwin McGaughie and Marion Shaw now married and living in Wellington Salop and Im wondering if his employment either as a ship caulker/painter would in lean times turn to say painting rendering buildings say churches for example may account for him being more inland at this period then through Marion's fathers work and connections taken him up to Glasgow why choose the name McGaughie him being English, Morrison I could understand but McGaughie seems far from being easy to remember and yet 3/4 decades later his children are still using it well some of them there has to be some kind of connection to McGaughie/Morrison family name somewhere I can see he kept Clark in his McGaughie persona but not in his Morrison.
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I wonder who the Elizabeth Thorn is who married either Henry Thomas A Canaway or Henry Jenner Peirce in Portsea 1875/March/2b/542?
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He looks to have had a standard Navy discharge in 1877
No he didn't. He deserted in Portland in April 1873, reinstated in Oct 1874 from Lewes gaol, then deserted again in June 1877 at Portsmouth. I think the 2 y [years] might be a reference to how long he had been gone and so was discharged. He was supposed to serve 10 years from Jan 1870.
Debra :)
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Great find Dundee/Debra thats seems to be a key if it is the one and same man.
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Good correction, Debra :)
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From 'The Broad arrow; the naval and military gazette, on 2 May 1874:
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Wow amazing what you all have dug up from nearly 150 yrs ago of an ordinary (pun) seaman/person if there can be found no death for said Edwin Walter Clark(e) then it is very very likely to be Edwin Clark McGaughie (not much of a name change at first glance) and maybe just maybe the reason he has the 2nd persona of John Morrison in the naval work area of Govan/Glasgow could be to hide from other seamen who may recognize the Edwin Clark(e) from the 1874 trail.
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I haven't really been following this post so, can I ask please?
Is this all about a seaman from Glasgow who changed his name? If it is, I have a common and plausible explanation.
If it isn't, just ignore me, I'll go away of my own accord ;D
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Please don't go away.
I'd be very interested in your possible explanation, even if it might not apply in this case.
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Please don't go away.
There's a first time for everything Forfarian!
In Glasgow, seamen and their families shopped in "Marine Stores", very much like the old co-operative stores most of us still remember.
The marine stores allowed credit on the condition that the sailor left his official seaman's papers with the store and these couldn't be retrieved unless the slate was wiped clean. This meant that he couldn't go back to work until he'd paid his bill.
So, when times were hard and money scarce, the men used to change their names, apply for new papers under that name and sail off leaving their debt unpaid.
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Fascinating, thanks, Lodger.
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Thanks Lodger a good bit of info to keep in mind but the short story is.... that my grt grt maternal grand father named John Morrison (1849) was proving hard to trace regards Birth and Marriage and Death the only one fitted seemed to be from a marriage in England (his wife originally from Glasgow) but this man was named Edwin Clark McGaughie so the concensus is that he may have been originally a sailor by the name of Edwin Walter Clark(e) born 1848 hence why ? the name change.
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.... he may have been originally a sailor by the name of Edwin Walter Clark(e) born 1848 hence why ? the name change.
For two good possible reasons, from what we have seen here:
Deserted the Navy?
Likely still married to Elizabeth Thorn?
Remember, his death reg in 1924 gave good detail on his parents, even though the surname used was McGaughie. However, his father was showing as John Clark McGaughey and mother Lydia Wells.
Have you looked at Edwin's 1921 census entry? Just wondering if anything new showed for his birth place on this.
Monica
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Please don't go away.
There's a first time for everything Forfarian!
;D
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Maternal grt grandfather in Glasgow Govan
John Morrison death Jan 1937 aged 50 parents John Morrison Marion McLean ms Shaw
census 1921 aged 35 born Glasgow
census 1911 aged 23 born Govan
marriage feb 1906 aged 20 parents John Morrison Marion McLean ms Shaw
census 1901 aged 15 born Cathcart parents John Morrison Marion Morrison
census 1891 aged 5 born Clarkston parents John Morrison Marion Morrison
should be born circa 1885/6 Lanarkshire or Renfrewshire no birth ties in with parents named.
A John Clark McGaughie born Cathcart mother Marion McGaughie ms McLean in Aug 1885
a look at the siblings on the 1901/1891 census's gave a similar conflicting search of certificates though mother flits between ms McLean/Shaw father is only McGaughie no Morrison.
So this was my initial search for John Morrison who died in 1937 recorded in death and marriage and in the Census's but no birth for the time period but I found the McGaughie births which tied in with time period and place names but no Census data for that family name.
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A wee update for those who are interested esp those who added to the post I'm still unsure if to conclude that Edwin Walter Clark / Edwin Clark McGaughie/ John Morrison are all one and the same person after buying all the relevant McGaughie children certificates from Scotland births the last 4
1891 Lydia McGaughie born 20 Victoria St Govan
1893 Edwin McGaughie born 20 Victoria St Govan died 1896 same address
1896 Edwin Clark McGaughie born 20 Victoria St Govan
1898 Mary Ann P Clarke McGaughie born 20 Victoria St Govan
parents are named Edwin Clark McGaughie and Marion Mclean McGaughie ms Shaw
no relevant births for the same 1st named Morrison's on the 1891 census found to match similar with the 1901 census with the Morrison family also at 20 Victoria St Govan but no McGaughie family found on the census returns there.
the 1901 marriages of Eveline McGaughie 20 Victoria St Govan in January witness John Morrison then in June 1901 John Morrison 20 Victoria St Govan.
A similar pattern with later McGaughie/Morrison marriages from same address's in Govan also the 1921 census showing John Morrison Marion Morrison their daughter Mary Ann and husband Philip Johnston who later in July 1921 are witness's to Barbara Clark McGaughie's wedding all give 23 Albert St Govan then I'm sure that the Edwin Clark McGaughie that dies in 1924 at 23 Albert St Govan is John Morrison on the Census returns from 1881 in england then 1891/1901/1911 and the 1921 census in Govan still no understanding why half the children use/carried on with Morrison and most of the girls apart from Mary Ann chose McGaughie I can find no births that tie in with the named parents John Morrison and Marion McLean Shaw and all those named children or dates.
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Wow I also have been researching the same person and put Edwin Mcgaughie and Edwin W Clatk as the same person. He is my great grandfather as his daughter Lydia was my grandmother. I again don't know how Morrison came into the equation. I'm sure Lydia Wells and John Clark were his parents. I can't believe someone else is researching him too 🤣
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Drumkilty you have to make another couple of posts then I can private mail you if we are researching the same family he was my x2 grt grandfather, then we must be related I would like to pass on everything I have researched if you are interested. Garngad
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I am sure we are definitely related through Edwin Mcgaughie/Clark. I would be really interested in your research. I look forward to hearing from you soon 😊