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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: DeeBee58 on Saturday 28 January 23 03:22 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I am looking for help to find information on William FRANCE (FRANCES,FRANCIS) and wife Christina (maiden name NEED)
I would like to know if possible how and when they came to Australia - perhaps in the 1850's
I don't know if they were married before they came to Australia or after.
I have a copy of Christina's death certificate and do know from that, that she was a native of London and was born in about 1817.
Also where and when William died. It would have been sometime after 1864.
Thanks in advance
Regards
Debbie
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Do you have any idea which state in Australia they lived in? Or where their children were born?
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Related post from 2014
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=678014.msg5227231#msg5227231
Hi Rosie
They had 2 children both born in Victoria, Australia
John abt 1859 and Sarah abt 1856
Debbie
Also contained therein, a little more information.
Sue
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DeeBee58
Would you kindly type out the exact wording under every column/heading on the death certificate for Christina.
Please don't omit anything and don't paraphrase or summarise.
This may produce a good clear starting point for your inquiry. ;D
Sue
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Have you looked at the 1866 Victorian death for a William France?
Inquest for that death
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/6623A884-F1B8-11E9-AE98-E345F1C54562?image=1
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To avoid duplication - this thread related to Sarah France, daughter of the above couple.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=674012.0
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On the thread about John Mazzalotti, linked above by Neale1961, there is lengthy discussion about the birth of a child named Alice.
This child -
FRANCE Alice
Mothr Sarah FRANCE
Father UK
At TIMO
1872
26813/1872
This news item and other around the time make her parenthood clearer.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5876020?searchTerm=%22sarah%20france%22
She was about 14/15 years at this time as stated in the news items and this fits with her death notice in 1940 with an age of 86. (b.1854)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11301721
Sue
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Sarah taken in by Ryecrofts after her mother died. (Edited]
The child, John France, died in 1862 (age 3) resulting from burns in a shepherd's hut.
That might explain the mother's "unsound mind" -see Police Gazette
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So Alice was in the care of some other family after her mother died in 1863.
In brief, the people in whose care Sarah FRANCE was, were I think, Joseph RYCROFT.
Allegedly, the infant's father was John JAGO.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201297477?searchTerm=%22Jago%20France%20%22~20
Sue
ADDING,
I am trying to figure how RYCROFT has Sarah FRANCE as a sister in law
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Sorry, had my wires crossed.
Alice born 1872 is Sarah’s child with John Jago.
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Joseph Rycroft was born 1819 Liverpool and was a convict to Tasmania in 1837 per “Neptune”.
Coincidently there is a convict named William France born abt 1814 Liverpool who was a convict to Tasmania arriving 1837 per “Elphinstone”.
Both men received their TOL around the same time.
I am thinking that Jos Ryecroft and Wm France were known to each other either from Liverpool or from their time in Tasmania.
All convict records for William France convict are readily available from Tasmanian Archives.
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this tree says William France died 1866
https://gw.geneanet.org/jmmoun?n=need&oc=&p=christina
not all trees are correct of course
...............................................................................................
Joseph Rycroft
Baptism: 27 Jun 1819 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Joseph Rycroft - [Child] of Thomas Rycroft & Elizabeth
Abode: Crosshall St
Occupation: Shoe Maker
Baptised by: T. H. Heathcote Curate
.....................................................
Marriage: 18 Nov 1799 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Thomas Rycroft - Cordwainer, Liverpool
Elizabeth Lunt - (X), Spinster, Liverpool
Witness: Edward Coventry; Thos. Howard
Christina was on a Tasmanian lists of crime in 1861 - 2 years before she died ..
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Sarahs G Grandaughter is Jennifer Mountford and placed flowers on Sarahs grave 15th August 2021
............................................................
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/215726826/sarah-mazzoletti?_gl=1*1m74jac*_ga*NTM3NjIzODQ0LjE2NTgyMTQwODE.*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*MTY3NDg5MTQ4MC4xMzcuMS4xNjc0ODkyNDI2LjU2LjAuMA..
..................................................
you can send Jennifer Mountford a message here
https://www.findagrave.com/user/profile/49193932
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Joseph Rycroft was born 1819 Liverpool and was a convict to Tasmania in 1837 per “Neptune”.
Coincidently there is a convict named William France born abt 1814 Liverpool who was a convict to Tasmania arriving 1837 per “Elphinstone”.
Both men received their TOL around the same time.
I am thinking that Jos Ryecroft and Wm France were known to each other either from Liverpool or from their time in Tasmania.
All convict records for William France convict are readily available from Tasmanian Archives.
b 1813
Baptism: 14 Mar 1813 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
William France - Son of George France & Alice
Abode: Harrington St
Occupation: Butcher
....................................................
Marriage: 14 Apr 1812 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
George France - Butcher, Liverpool
Alice Platt - (X), Spinster, Liverpool
Witness: Barnet Murphy, (X); Nancy Murphy, (X)
Married by Licence by: T. Kidd Curate
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Christina was on a Tasmanian lists of crime in 1861 - 2 years before she died ..
I think that is the Police Gazette entry for her "missing"
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Thank you all so much for all you have found. I have been looking for this information on and off for almost 9 years. Amazing work!!
Thank you!!
Kind regards
Debbie
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Marriage: 14 Apr 1812 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
George France - Butcher, Liverpool
Alice Platt - (X), Spinster, Liverpool
Witness: Barnet Murphy, (X); Nancy Murphy, (X)
Married by Licence by: T. Kidd Curate
I would be careful assuming this baptism is correct. William was convicted in Liverpool, and this was his "native" place, but he may have been baptised in the surrounding area.
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Would it be asking too much to see if there is any info on John Jago??
Debbie
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I have just found an article in Avoca Times https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201296778?searchTerm=John%20jago#
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More here
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5882643?searchTerm=Jago%20AND%20Rathscar
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Much of the man's conduct seems to have parallels in our modern society.
What a horribe man.
Bankruptcy doesn't seem enough! IMO
Sue
Adding
This 1873 news clip tells the same story but adds some details I had not seen before.
It again states that Alice EDIT SARAH was Rycroft's sister in law.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/113593976
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No, not a very nice man. And no real justice for Sarah.
She certainly had a lot of tragedy and trouble in her young life. I feel such sadness for her.
I think I can say that my search has come to a close and I can now document it with the confidence that I am being true to what actually happened.
Thank you all so much for filling in those missing years. I really do appreciate it.
Debbie
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Trying to find some background for William France, I have looked further at his criminal records, both in England and Australia.
Before being sent to Tasmania as a convict, he had a few previous convictions in Liverpool. In fact the sentence for his last offence (due to previous crimes) was originally death, and this was commuted to 14 yrs transportation. Looking at Willam’s age cross all the documents, there is a conformity that his birth was abt 1819 in Liverpool (not 1814 as previously posted). This puts his age closer to his buddy Joseph Rycroft.
The only possible baptism I can find is this (but may not be correct)
Baptism: 21 Jun 1818 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
William France - Son of William France (labourer) & Elizabeth
Abode: Cunliffe St
William’s father’s occupation is “labourer” & I feel this is more in line with his son’s which was recorded as labourer / groom/ carter on convict records.
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This 1873 news clip tells the same story but adds some details I had not seen before.
It again states that Alice EDIT SARAH was Rycroft's sister in law.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/113593976
it say's she was Rycroft's "adopted daughter and sister-in-law."
Need to look into the sister-in-law bit?
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FOUND IT! :D Yes sister-in-law might be almost correct.
Joseph Rycroft married Annie BENTLE in 1865
Annie was quite a bit younger than Rycroft. She was born in 1844 in Tasmania - the daughter of George BENDALL (BENTLE) and Christiana MEAD / NEAD.
I think that must be Christiana NEED. The marriage to George Bendall was in Hobart 8 July 1833.
Sister-in-law is not right, is it?
Christiana Need was the mother to Joseph Rycroft's wife. Christiana Need was Joseph Rycroft's mother-in-law. I can't work out what that correct relationship for Sarah is, without getting my brain in a knot!
ADDED: George Bendall died in Melbourne in 1852, which would leave time for his widow Christiana to partner with William France and have a child in 1856.
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It really is a tangled web ;)
Sorry to cause you further brain scramble but I just found this article on Trove which may or may not discount convict links...also mentions that Sarah is his adopted daughter....
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201297297?searchTerm=Joseph%20Rycroft
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In 1862, Joseph Rycroft had a child named Louisa and the mother was Ann Francis.
Louisa RYCROFT
Mother Ann FRANCIS
Father Joseph
BARK
1862
10098/1862
Sue
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William's sister perhaps???
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Joseph Rycroft received his certificate of Freedom in 1844. By the time of this court case he was a respectable famer – nobody would have known about his convict background 30 years in the past.
The link between the families is that Rycroft’s wife Annie and Sarah France were ½ sisters. They both shared the same mother – Christiana Nead.
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Louisa married Benjamin HALL
HALL Benjamin Bryant
RYCROFT, Louisa
1885
3848/1885
And there were many chidren in Maryborough area.
She died in 1902, and the informant believed her mother's name was BENTLY.
Information on a DC s only as valid as the informant's knowledge.
Deth Notice 1942
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206810164
Sue
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Louisa possibly grew up thinking her mother was Annie, nee Bentle - perhaps unaware of who her real mother was.
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Very possible, though she would have been 3 years when Rycroft married BENTLE.
Sue
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Sorry but I am not sure why we are following Louisa. Am I missing something???
Alice is Sarah's daughter by John Jargo
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Sorry but I am not sure why we are following Louisa. Am I missing something???
Alice is Sarah's daughter by John Jargo
I have wanted to know why Joseph RYCROFT refers to Sarah FRANCE as his sister-in -law and following the births marriages and deaths of himself an his relatives was one avenue of my inquiry.
Sue
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I have wanted to know why Joseph RYCROFT refers to Sarah FRANCE as his sister-in -law
The relationship is not that straight forward.
Sarah was the 1/2 sister to Joseph Rycroft’s wife. So perhaps the correct relationship to Joseph was step-sister-in-law. ???
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Sue,
I didn't mean to offend or challenge you, my apologies if I did.
It's a bit hard to get your head around it all, isn't it?
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No offence taken ;D
It is simply my way of being as thorough as possible in the inquiry and exploring all avenues and resources.
I agree with Neale, Sarah FRANCE was a kind of sister in law.
Many cultures just use the term cousin for complex relationships and perhaps in 1870's Australia it was just easier to not fuss about accurate complexities of kinship in a newspaper report.
The relationship is not connected to the relationship Joseph RYCROFT possibly had one of the FRANCE women which produced Louisa RYCROFT.
Sue