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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Carmarthenshire => Topic started by: CaioResearcher on Wednesday 07 September 05 13:35 BST (UK)
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Hello,
As new to the list, thought I would post my interests.
I am searching for the birth of Elizabeth Davies. She is my great grandmother from Caio. She married a Thomas Davies who was born at Waunfelen to a John Davies (Llandewibrefi) and a Margaret Jones (Waunfelen, Ffarmers, Caio). In 1901, they lived at Garth (Gardd) Farm in Caio. Elizabeth Davies's parentage is unknown. She has mentioned a John Davies on marriage certificate and on one census (1891). However, in 1881 she was living at Glanrydd with grandfather Benjamin Davies and Mary Davies (nee Jones). She was born circa 1873/1874. There is mention in the family that there is a connection to the Drummonds Family and Johnes Family. I know about Judge Johnes etc. but not much about the Drummond Family. I understand that some relatives had to go to this family to seek permission to marry (grandchildren of Elizabeth). Some say Elizabeth was illigitimate and their is a connection to the above families??! I know a grandson of Elizabeth was educated at Lampeter and paid for by the Johnes family and also some china was given to the family from the estate. Anyone know anything on this Drummond family? Any connections to my Elizabeth Davies, welcome response.
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Welcome to Rootschat CaioResearcher!
Your query caught my eye as I was travelling between Llandovery and Lampeter yesterday and very nearly took the side road to Caio.
Are the Drummonds Caio people too? And was the grandson educated in the school at Lampeter or the University (St David's College as it would have been at the time)? I might be able to help if it is the University.
I have no Davies connections myself, but it is a very popular name in these parts! Good luck!
RuthieB
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Hello RuthieB,
I was there end of July, part holiday, great to look up, and so friendly, stopping people on the road who knew my grandfather (son of Elizabeth or one of the many kids - Thomas Davies).
Anyway, the Drummonds are I think from Edwinsford. They were about, like the Johnes, in the 1800's. The relative in question was Oswyn. I believe his full name may be Thomas Oswyn Evans. His mother was a daughter of Elizabeth, her name also Elizabeth but known as 'Bess'. She married a Thomas Evans. All from Caio. Anyway, the family apparently lived at The Lodge wherever that is in Caio, near the Dolaucothi Mines, I think Dolauchothi Lodge. Bess was a cook at the mansion and their son Oswyn was much favoured by the mansion - benig sent away to public school and Lampeter Uni being paid by them. He died in the 1940's and was an DFC Air pilot.
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Hi - I know you posted this ages ago, but I am doing a spot of tidying - did you sort this one, or are you still seeking help?
kind regards Arranroots ;)
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Arranroots,
Thanks for the reply. I haven't yet sorted it out completely. I did find Elizabeth's birth certificate after much searching and help from the Registry Office in Carmarthen. As expected, no father on the birth certificate. Her mother, Mary Davies was listed as giving birth in 'The School House, Cwrt y Cadno'. I have since found out where this is and seen it. She was born 1874 and I found out from relatives that there is some connection with the Drummond family, but I think it is a brother of Sir James Drummond. Unfortunately, I lost details of the family around that time, you don't know where I could get a copy? do you? It would be the Drummond family on 1871 Census. They lived at Caio and I believe also from Clovelly, Devon, aswell as residence in London.
Many thanks.............the search continues.
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Message for Helen in Caio : I am the semi-official researcher for Edwinsford and Drummond family, as assisting the current owner of the mansion since December 2003. I have the full family tree etc., as well as hundreds of letters, and willing to assist you, as any additional child in the family tree would be knowledge that would help us as well. In brief, Joe (Sir James) would be 17 in 1874 (born 13 Jan 1857), so just perhaps too young to father the child....but maybe not! His brothers were younger. You need to call me at my work desk next week at CABI, Wallingford - 01491 832111.....the switchbord will put you through. Check out www.cabi.org if you wish, to see we exist and the good work we do! regards, Dane Garrod, HR Advisor.
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Welcome to Rootschat Dane! :)
How exciting to be able to offer such quality help!
If you ever need help from us, please let us know - please explore our boards while you are here!
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Hello, Administrator, and thank-you ! I'm also researching the linked family of the Cliftons of Lytham (they owned all the houses, like Clovelly is still family owned). All three places connected, but the Lancashire list too long to search for Clifton of Lytham.......do you have search engines in the county tables? I think not....
Footnote : (Mrs Madeline Clifton (1847-1907), after being widowed at Lytham, married Sir James Drummond, whose maternal grandfather owned Clovelly and Edwinsford.)
Moderator comment: image resized
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... the Lancashire list too long to search for Clifton of Lytham.......do you have search engines in the county tables? I think not....
Hello again
You can search the individual boards by unchecking the ones you don't want to search - see the Search Rootschat icon at the top of each page. It is a wee bit cumbersome, but should do the job!
Can I also recommend the Surname Interest Table (hotlink at the foot of each page) which does what it says on the tin - you can enter your interests and refine by area, or search to see who else is researching the same names.
Each county also has "Offers" boards where you can state what you can do to help others, and Look-Up Request boards where you can ask for assistance - we might be able to help you? We have a good track record of reuniting heirlooms with the families of their original owners, for example!
Have fun!
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Dane,
Thank you for the reply. I think we may have spoken before in the past. I am told by a relative that the father was Sir James Drummond's brother, but which one?
Sorry I haven't got back before but circumstances were difficult. The child (Elizabeth) as I said was born 1874 (17th Feb) to the mother Mary Davies. I was wondering, as later in life, Elizabeth 'inherited' quite a bit of money and this has been confirmed by someone still living today in Cwrt, do you have any paperwork or details of trusts from the Drummonds to this Elizabeth or perhaps a Ward of Chancery as I believe they call it in Ireland? The man she put down as 'father' on her marriage certificate could have been made the 'ward' his name was John Davies (no relative). I have searched this family for so long and are just stuck here, although I do know Elizabeth's grandparents, as she lived with them. I have also found her place of birth which was basically a shed known on her certificate as 'the school house'. A place where visiting ministers stayed. I understand that James Hamlyn Williams Drummond (b.1857) had 3 brothers, Edwin, Hugh and Francis??? Where there any twins in the family??
Look forward to hearing from you.
Regards
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In reply to the suggestion, and I think it has to be that as you'll see from the data, that a Drummond brother fathered Elizabeth Davies, here is the fullest information.
Apart from the eldest, James (Later Sir James, and known as Joe), the others are Edwin b. 1858 d. 1864, so that let's him out as he was dead long before 1874. Next is Hugh born 1859 and finally Dudley born 1863. I think we have to say that these boys aged 14 and 10 when Elizabeth was conceived are not the father, don't you agree?
That only leaves Sir James Williams-Drummond himself, who would have been only 16 when the child was conceived. Possible, but I feel unlikely, because of his age and especially because you were told a brother of Sir James was the father. Over to you Caio Researcher for comments. Oh yes, their father died in 1866, so he's not the father of Elizabeth either. That's all the boys (one sister- Annabella, born 1854 and eldest child). No twins in any generation before or after.
Dane.
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Dane,
Thanks for the reply. Baffles me but relatives (one in particular in Llanelli who is great granddaughter and told by 'the illigitimate chid' Elizabeth herself) that the father was definitely from the Drummond family and it was she who told me it was a brother of Sir James Drummond. The only other one I can think of is Charles, brother of Sir James born 1814?? This Elizabeth born February, 1874, mother Mary was 29 when she had her which is also in some ways confusing to me because she would, I thought, have been older and wiser, not a young girl without knowledge, if you know what I mean! The only other thing I can think of to put this to rest is to search how she 'came into thousands' as I'm told - do you have any paperwork or point me in the right direction with regards to perhaps a 'trust' or 'will' that could have been left to the child Elizabeth, hence her 'inheritance' at or after her marriage.
The search continues..............
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Helen
No, I have no documents other than Wills. Of Joe Drummond (died 1913) and of his wife, Madeline, (died 1907). No mention of any other people than their only child (yet another James), or Madeline's seven other children (she was widowed early). Also have Wills of Joe's parents, Sir James (3rd Baronet) and Mary Eleanor, but no mention of any other bequests there.
You mention Charles Drummond, brother of the 3rd Baronet, so you're going back a generation there. He retired as a Rear Admiral in 1855, so by 1873/4 he'd be very very elderly - probably dead actually, as born about 1792. Other brother of this generation is Orlando who died 1831. It's not this generation, as it's clearly the wrong period. You're back to Joe now (4th Baronet), and we've dealt with his brothers as being children in 1873/4. Just perhaps it was 16/17 year old Joe, who was well loved by the ladies as is shown by letters from 1874 onwards. Yes, the year you speak off is a year he was receiving letters of undying love from distant cousins etc, some 5 years older than his 17 years. Perhaps they also liked the idea of the land, the house, and the title....
I assume you live in Caio (what the Americans call C-A-ten, I understand!), so when I'm down to Edwinsford next spring, you might like to talk with me in the local pub perhaps. I shall have some letters etc with me (I always seem to!).
I might be able to get you into the ruined mansion and grounds etc. for a look-see, should you be interested to do so.
Keep in touch.
Dane Garrod Moderator comment: phone number removed - please use the Pm system to exchange such details
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Caio Researcher/DaneGarrod
Try this website,
http://isys.llgc.org.uk/
It allows you to search the archives at the National Library of Wales at Abeystwyth by keyword, be that place or name. It's wise to try several variations of a name as the spelling is anything but consistent. The descrpitions of the collections can be quite lengthy, I use the 'Find on this page' function really useful, shortcut by pressing 'Ctrl + F' keys together.
The online material is being added to regularly so it's worth revisiting from time to time. I've managed to find some personal correspondence of 4xGr Grandmother, and diary entries of a 4xGr uncle, also from Cwrt y cadno as it happens. Now I just need to get to Aberystwyth to access the files... here's hoping!
Happy hunting,
Buckaroo
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Hello from California, USA!
I have read with interest some mails regarding Williams-Drummonds and related topics. I see also that you have a family tree for the Drummonds?
Sir James Williams-Drummond born 11 Aug 1814, died 10 May 1866 - married to: Mary Eleanor Hamlyn Williams is a G great uncle of mine. (dates may be off)
I was wondering if this is the same line that is being discussed on Rootschat, etc? And if you might be able to assist me in my quest to identify my ancestors please?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
My contact information is below.
Thank you for your time.
Kind Regards,
Jim Walker
Moderator comment: email address and other personal information removed. Please pass this to interested parties by personal message. Thanks
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email address and other personal information removed. Please pass this to interested parties by personal message.
How would I do that?
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Hi Jim
You're welcome to post details of the Drummonds on here but we don't allow email addresses and links to personal Youtube threads on the boards.
Now that you have made three posts you should be able to use the PM system to send that info if it is requested. You just need to click on the green 'scroll' under the name of the person you want to contact.
Let me know if you need more help
Kind regards, Arranroots
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Hello CaioResearcher and everyone else,
For a history of at least part of the Johnes family of Dolaucothi I would suggest reading 'Peacocks in Paradise' by Elizabeth Inglis-Jones.It is essentially about the Hafod Estate in Cardiganshire.However,this was the property of Thomas Johnes of Dolaucothi and there is quite a bit of info. on the Dolaucothi estate.If nothing else it's a terrific read.
As to the Drummonds of Edwinsford I refer you to www.carmarthenshirehistorian.org
Type in Edwinsford in the search box and you will find a quite thorough history of the Drummonds and references to other places mentioned here on Rootschat.
Hope this helps,good luck with you search,
brawdhoudini
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HI all, I have used a lot of web sites for research but RootsChat is new! Really interested in reading all your chats on Edwinsford and its family. I live in Edwinsford Farmhouse (Home Farm as it use to be called) and overlook the mansion and grounds. I have done a lot of research on the house and family, I have photos and photocopy of letters sent to and from the family at Edwinsford. I have also copies of photos from the National Library in Aberystwyth. I am always looking for more information and am willing to help anyone. I am looking to bring back some original items/pictures stories and artefacts to Edwinsford. I have also dated the family back to 900s which Edwinsford was build on the land known as Rhydodyn. Let me know if you are interested.
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Hi Edwinsford Farmhouse
Is this the large house that I once saw near Talley that was in need of much modernisation? I'm not that good at geography but I remember a few years ago searching out the place Edwinsford, and driving down a long driveway to what must have been once quite a stately home! Don't think I was actually allowed to go down the drive way, but if I got caught, I was going to plead ignorance! lol
Anyway, my research and conncection is that my g.grandmother was illegitimate and the story is that there was some connection to Sir James Drummond of Edwinsford, hence my original first post and interest. Still searching for years to find the 'daddy'. Sounds like you've uncovered some fun history and photos - if any letters mention giving money to a Mary Davies - (the mother of the child, Elizabeth) then I'm all ears!
Look forward to hearing from you
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Hi Caio Researcher,
Yes that is the same place. The house is privately owned and he does not like trespassers due to the house being in disrepair and dangerous (I won't say anything!). As you would have looked to the Edwinsford, to the right is the river Cothi and all the houses which once served the mansion are located over the river (there is a bridge which the family and workers would have used yards from the mansion and the Farmhouse). All these houses are private residence but the Dairy Cottage is a holiday let and is now for sale, you can take a look at the house on-line. Search: Dairy Cottage, Llansawel. I will look through my paperwork to see if there is any reference to your family. Most of the letters i believe date back earlier, but I will look and will ask some of the locals who's families have lived here for years. It may take some time but I will get back to you, however I also have an ancestor who was illegitimate and lived in London. From what we worked out (some is factual and some guess work) a young girl worked in a stately home, became pregnant from one of the family members, she had a daughter. The family was looked after for quite some time after. My grandmother remembers some packages of food and clothing and money was sometimes sent, she remembers that it was from a Lord and Lady and packages was driven to the house by private drivers! Due to what was then a shameful and embarrassing act it was not talked about or documented, so we have never been able to have any evidence of that had happened. Your story sounds similar to mine, sometimes the mysteriousness adds to the drama of it all. I hope you have more success with your family tree than I did.
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Thanks for the reply! Thanks for offering to have a look and ask around. For the record, there were 2 children. An older brother Thomas born 1867, but I'm currently looking at Elizabeth born 1874. The mother of both children was Mary Davies. She lived in Cwrt y Cadno and I am told by one of the grandchildren of Elizabeth and a cousin that Sir James Drummond is involved somewhere. Also when I asked my grandmother who was the father of her mother, she said one of the sons of the mansion over the hill? Look forward to hearing from you
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Hi Edwinsford Farmhouse
Is this the large house that I once saw near Talley that was in need of much modernisation? I'm not that good at geography but I remember a few years ago searching out the place Edwinsford, and driving down a long driveway to what must have been once quite a stately home! Don't think I was actually allowed to go down the drive way, but if I got caught, I was going to plead ignorance! lol
Anyway, my research and conncection is that my g.grandmother was illegitimate and the story is that there was some connection to Sir James Drummond of Edwinsford, hence my original first post and interest. Still searching for years to find the 'daddy'. Sounds like you've uncovered some fun history and photos - if any letters mention giving money to a Mary Davies - (the mother of the child, Elizabeth) then I'm all ears!
Look forward to hearing from you
I live locally. Have been told the ballroom ceiling at edwinsford hwas the most beautiful ceiling in europe in its time.