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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: McFab on Tuesday 24 January 23 06:44 GMT (UK)
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I’m researching my wife’s family history which I’ve been doing for some time. Unfortunately it appears to be a name where there’s a lot of information about her early life and not much on her later life, mainly her death. This also appears to be the same for her husband John.
This is what I have:
Mary Ann (Anne) Ashton
Born: 1818 Chatham, Kent
Baptised: Sept, 1818
Married: John Williams – Oct 1839
Children: I have 5 – 3 sons & 2 daughters
Death: ????
John Williams
Born: 1811 Hobart Town
Baptised: Jan 1812
Married: Ann Ashton – Oct 1839
Children: I have 5 – 3 sons & 2 daughters
Death: ????
Ann Elizabeth, their last child was born in 1856, John was a “Cooper” and they lived in Melville Street.
I have the following Information;
Ann was a witness in October 1872 when Ann Elizabeth married Benjamin Broad
Ann (Grandmother) Williams has signed as an Informant on Benjamin John Broad’s birth record in April 1877
Possible - Anne Williams – Died 4th Dec, 1889 Murray Street aged 74 years (Born 1815) Cornelian Bay Cemetery
John’s name is on the birth record of Ann Elizabeth Oct, 1856, but her mother Ann signed
Possible – John Williams, buried 23rd April 1890 died a “pauper” (Born 1811) Cornelian Bay Cemetery
What makes it harder with John’s record is, there is a convict John Williams who has the same birth year.
If anybody has any information that could help resolve the deaths of both John & Ann (Ashton) Williams, it would be very much appreciated.
I’m possibly not the first and more than likely not the last to seek closure on both these deaths.
Regards
McFab
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Possible - Anne Williams – Died 4th Dec, 1889 Murray Street aged 74 years (Born 1815) Cornelian Bay Cemetery
Anne's burial is the reopening of the grave of Tudor Williams who was buried the same year
https://server2.admin.millingtons.com.au:81/ASP/search_details.asp?RecordID=7466 (https://server2.admin.millingtons.com.au:81/ASP/search_details.asp?RecordID=7466)
https://server2.admin.millingtons.com.au:81/ASP/search_details.asp?RecordID=7273 (https://server2.admin.millingtons.com.au:81/ASP/search_details.asp?RecordID=7273)
https://stors.tas.gov.au/AF70-1-15P436JPG (https://stors.tas.gov.au/AF70-1-15P436JPG)
https://stors.tas.gov.au/AF70-1-15P228JPG (https://stors.tas.gov.au/AF70-1-15P228JPG)
...son of the late C B Williams esq of Bristol
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9215688 (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9215688)
M
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matthewj64, from what I take of your reply the Anne Williams burial records I found are for a separate family and Tudor Williams mother?
Thank very much for your quick reply
McFab
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The Tasmanian Archives has Ann(e) Williams of Murray Street, Hobart on Dec 4th 1889 as a widow.
From the info you have given about witnessing family births etc, it would seem that Ann (ex convict) has survived her husband John. However, if he did die in 1890 of senile debility he could have been in the Pauper's establishment for several years prior to death ( possibly dementia?)
The death of another John Williams (convict) born England has his birth as 1821, not 1811 as per Findagrave. in 1890
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"there’s a lot of information about her early life "
What information do you have about her early life?.
Might have a clue to her later life and death.
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Wivenhoe, our right, there is a lot on information out there and a lot of individual’s researching her. Ann or some have her as Anne, like many early female convicts she is the foundation of an expansive family and heavily researched.
I’ve been researching her now for a few years and I am the first to admit I’m not good at it, but the area around Ann and her husband John’s death and burial records is very important to my wife’s family history.
I have asked for and received extremely valuable hints/help over the years from a lot of very knowledgeable individuals like yourself not only on the Williams side of the family but on my side as well.
Anyway, getting back to Ann and John I would be extremely grateful if you could pass on any information on Ann and John's deaths or burials, it would be very much appreciated. As you mention in your reply, Ann is heavily researched but there appears to be no factual dates that can be backed up by sold evidence, (or at least what I can find) of where and how they died and where they were buried.
Regards
McFab
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shume, thank you very much for your input. Although I included the 1889 death I now have some concerns around the record showing her being born in Cumberland, England where Ann Ashton (to the best of my knowledge) was born in Chatham, the other thing I have picked up on is the last address I have for John & Ann is Melville Street in 1856 and the 1889 death shows Murray Street. At this point in time I haven't found a family member who lived in Murray Street, not that that is a deal breaker.
Thank you again.
McFab
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Using....Linc ...name search - finds
Ann ASHTON.......Permission to marry. Ann ASHTON arrived on the "Atwick" ....husband John WILLIAMS is ...free
21 Oct 1839 St Davids Hobart
WILLIAMS John 26 years cooper bachelor (X)
ASHTON Ann 20 years spinster (X)
in the presence of R * FOREMAN Charlotte HANSON (X)
(...my note - R I FOREMAN and HANSON have been written again above the original writing. I think the original initials for FOREMAN were R J)
Convict records for Ann ASHTON on the LINC site are -
CON40/1/12
* arrived "Atwick" 24 Jan 1838
* tried Edinburgh Crt of Justy 14 March 1837
* "theft by housebreaking and previous...."
CON19/1/12 page 172 (it is image 179)
Ann ASHTON housemaid age 18
written on the entry is -
Chatham bro up at Cannongate Edinbro
I read this to mean Ann was brought before the court in Edinburgh Scotland. If Chatham is recorded to be her native place I might expect to see at least...England...to also be added. I think this records Ann to be from/native of Chatham in Kent. The CON40 record includes previous offences, and three years on the town, a reference to prostitution.
Ann must have been in Scotland/Edinburgh for several years before her conviction in 1837, so there might be English-born ASHTONs in Edinburgh in the 1841 Scotland census...Ann's family.
On the "Atwick", and convicted in the same Edinburgh Court of Justiciary, same date 14 March 1837, are Ann SUTHERLAND and Elizabeth HOUSTON.
Use britishnewspaperarchives.com
Select...Scotland......1837....March 16
Finds.....Caledonian Mercury....Ann SUTHERLAND....and other convictions -
" Ann Sutherland, charged atith various acts of theft, aggravated by her previous conviction, pleaded Guilty, T anid was Eentenced to transportation for seven years. Heenry Wade, charged with theft. aggravated ..."
I am pasting what is visible, and in garbled form, at a pay-to-view website.
You need to create an account, and pay to see the entire article about court proceedings for that day, which I am sure will name Ann ASHTON.
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Adds a couple more details about her.
https://www.scottishindexes.com/adentry.aspx?adid=837244
Sue
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continuing with Scottishindexes https://www.scottishindexes.com/
Search....Surname......ASHTON
.....Keyword......Edinburgh..........
Finds earlier offences from 1834, and second reference to Chatham, Kent....under heading -
* Crown Counsel Procedure Books
* Prison Registers
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Through which son/daughter of John WILLIAMS and Ann ASHTON is your wife descended?
Can you give the details of this ancestor's marriage/children/death.
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wivenhoe, my wife's family comes down through the following;
Thomas & Frances (Reardon) Williams
John & Ann (Ashton) Williams
Thomas
Maria
John
*George
Ann Elizabeth
George & Sarah Ann (Lucas) Williams
Rose Ann Elizabeth
Violet Louisa
Sarah Horatio
George Thomas
John
Ethel Louisa
James Fredrick
*Richard
Eliza May
Alick Ernest
Richard & Mary Eany Agatha (Lambert) Williams
Thank for the Scottish Index link, I did have some of her priors but not through that site, it's a very helpful link.
Regards
McFab
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You know that Ann WILLIAMS married Benjamin BROAD, Hobart 1872 and that Ann WILLIAMS, grandmother, is the informant registering the birth of Benjamin John BROAD, Hobart 1877.
Tasmanian News 12 May 1891 p3
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/163590044?Divorce petitioner Benjamin BROAD, respondent BROAD, co-respondent Richard WEST
...married 1871, four children, lived together until seven years ago….living with Richard WEST in Newcastle.
Ann BROAD has left husband Benjamin and, at 1891, is living in Newcastle, NSW, with Richard WEST.
https://nmclm.com.au/find-a-loved-one/?site_id=6037
Search....Last Name WEST
First Name Lila
Date....1951...to...1951
Location....Sandgate
Finds WEST Lila buried 28 August 1951
click the down arrow after the date to see an image of headstone.
This picture of a monument in Sandgate Cemetery, NSW, has names....WILLIAMS...BROAD....WEST.
I think that -
" Ann Elizabeth WILLIAMS, died 14 April 1908, beloved wife of John WILLIAMS of Hobart, age 89 years" is your Ann ASHTON, convicted Edinburgh 1837, arrived Hobart "Atwick", 1838.
Use Trove and Newcastle Morning Herald and Miner's Advocate to find these families.
This seems to be their paper of choice, and notices for deaths, funerals and Memorials appear regularly.
Use BDM NSW to find the deaths.
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Wivenhoe's findings certainly look a very strong possible. ;D ;D
A transcription off this Death certificate would confirm.
WILLIAMS Ann E
7615/1908
Parents WILLIAM & JANE
At WARATAH
Sue
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wivenhoe,
that is an excellent bit of information, it appears, (as you said) most things seem to line up. If this all pieces together, it only leaves John to work on. I'm also interested in what "sparrett" had to say about the death record information.
McFab
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You need to see the death record for Ann Elizabeth WILLIAMS, died 1908, Newcastle.
John WILLIAMS, died....where, is a difficult name to search. You need some clues.
You look for events in peoples lives which show an intersection, such as the three family names on the headstone at Sandgate Cemetery.
Ann Elizabeth WILLIAMS probably went to live with her daughter in Newcastle as a widow, and after the death of her husband John.
The death certificate for Ann Elizabeth WILLIAMS will record how long she has lived in NSW.
John WILLIAMS might be buried with other family members....in Hobart?
You need to know about all the children born to John WILLIAMS and Ann ASHTON.
There are probably more that the five to be found as registered births on the LINC Name Search or other online sources.
The death certificate for Ann Elizabeth WILLIAMS will record her children as names and ages, and indentify those who are deceased.
You know that daughter Ann Elizabeth WEST is around when her mother dies, and is likely to be the source of information on the death certificate.
You need to see the information on the death certificate for Ann Elizabeth WILLIAMS, died 1908, Newcastle.
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Thank you very much for all your help "wivenhoe", I very much appreciate it. Although I've been researching for a couple of years now, I feel like I'm still very much a novice. I'm also getting on in years so it takes a bit of time for all this to sink in, that's one of the reasons for my ongoing requests for help.
People like yourself and "sparrett" have been so helpful with your knowledge and the fact your willing to help, I am so grateful.
I'll get onto purchasing the death certificate to confirm the family details.
Regards
McFab
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You do not need to order a copy of the original.
A transcription of it from one of the reputable agents will give the same information at a lower cost.
There will be a short waiting time after ordering.
This link may be a good starting point.
https://nswtranscriptions.com.au/
Sue
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I now have all the certificates and something doesn't add up, see below;
Ann Elizabeth Williams
Date of Death 14th April 1908 - Place Benevolent Asylum, Waratah
Aged 88
Place of Birth - Waratah NSW
Father - William Ashton
Occupation - Soldier
Mother - Jane Dikes
That's it, very little information and it doesn't fit in with the rest of the family on the headstone
McFab
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...... it doesn't fit in with the rest of the family on the headstone
What do you mean by that? The others mentioned are her husband John of Hobart, her daughter Ann who left Benjamin BROAD and ran off with Richard WEST, and William BROAD, her grandson.
Her father was a soldier which is why she would have been born in Chatham but it is quite likely that her parents were not from there.
Debra :)
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Can you please list all the information on the death certificate, 1908.
There will be several headings. Can you account for them all. If there is no information, identify as "blank"...or a "dash"...or "unknown"....
...exactly as you see on the document.
What is the document - a typed transcription? or do you see a lot of handwriting?
"I now have all the certificates "
What documents do you have for BDM events in the lives of the people you are researching, additional to those to be found on the Tasmanian LINC site, and the death certificate for Mary Ann WILLIAMS, died 1908, NSW.
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There is very little detail on the certificate but what I do know & I'm fairly sure of, Anne wasn't born in WARATAH NSW, the other puzzling issue I initially struggled with is the Elizabeth middle name.
I'll try to attach the document if that will help.
McFab
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I really think that you should consider this information.
There was a death registered in 1851 for a John WILLIAMS, Cooper aged 35(?). The death was registered by his uncle James BELBIN.
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD35-1-3p91j2k
In 1853 an Ann WILLIAMS aged 32, widow, married Thomas FILCH in Hobart.
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD37-1-12p74j2k
The permission to marry has him named as Thomas FITCH, ship Equestrian 2
By 1854 he was serving a 9 month sentence, and by 1856 he was in a relationship with an Elizabeth LANGDON.
In 1881 Anne WILLIAMS alias FITCH was sentenced to twelve months.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9001475
The Police Magistrate and Mr. W. Belbin, J.P., presided at the City Police Court yesterday morning. Two drunkards were fined 6s. each, with the usual alternative. Anne Williams, alias Fitch, pleaded guilty to stealing four pairs of trousers and other articles to the value of £9 10s. from the shop of Messrs. Ready and Mulcahy, Murray-street, and was sentenced to twelve months' imprisonment.
The reports of crime show that on conviction she is Ann WILLIAMS, ship Atwick, free by servitude, native place Scotland, aged 61. On release she is Anne WILLIAMS, ship Atwick, native place England.
Debra :)
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This is what I have:
Mary Ann (Anne) Ashton
Born: 1818 Chatham, Kent
Baptised: Sept, 1818
Where has that baptism date come from?
John Williams
Born: 1811 Hobart Town
Baptised: Jan 1812
What information do you have that leads you to believe that he was the son of Thomas WILLIAMS and Frances REARDON?
Ann Elizabeth, their last child was born in 1856, John was a “Cooper” and they lived in Melville Street......John’s name is on the birth record of Ann Elizabeth Oct, 1856, but her mother Ann signed
If I was descended from Ann Elizabeth I would be getting my DNA done to see what turns up.
Debra :)
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That is a good find Debra....WILLIAMS - FITCH marriage, 1853.
It would seem to be a short-lived arrangement. Any births might be found in baptism records?
There are several young WILLIAMS-ASHTON children at 1853.
How was Annie WILLIAMS looking after these children?. I do not see them in state care eg Queens Orphanage.
Edward FITCH and Thomas FITCH, parents Thomas FITCH and Elizabeth LANGDON are in the Queens Orphanage.
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See attached.
20th October, 1811
Child's Christian Name - John
Parent's Name - Christian
Thomas and Frances
Parent's Surname
Williams - nee Readon (Reardon)
Abode
Hobart Town
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At reply #22
"There was a death registered in 1851 for a John WILLIAMS, Cooper aged 35(?). The death was registered by his uncle James BELBIN. "
TAHO LINC BDM
Marriage 9 Sep 1816 Hobart Town District (Banns)
BELBIN Sarah (X) 23y Free
WILLIAMS Thomas 35y Free
Witnesses Thos CLARK David W BUSH
Marriage 9 Sep 1816 Hobart Town District (Banns)
BELBIN Catherine (X) 18y Free
BERROSS Thomas 37y Free
Witnesses Thomas WILLIAMS Thos CLARK
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There was a death registered in 1851 for a John WILLIAMS, Cooper aged 35(?). The death was registered by his uncle James BELBIN.
James BELBIN of Liverpool Street was a carpenter and builder in Hobart and then sold up in the mid 1850s to become a farmer. His obituaries...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/90552882
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9090239
His second wife was Eliza WILLIAMS and I think they were already related to each other. James' sister Sarah married a Thomas WILLIAMS and Eliza may have been their daughter, born in 1820. That would make her James' niece, so I don't know if that is correct. There do not seem to have been any children and I suppose it could have been a marriage of convenience to have someone to look after the younger children from his first marriage.
Debra :)
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Hi,
I would suggest, given the wealth of information provided, it looks as if some time after the expiration of her gaol sentence in 1881, Ann went to Newcastle to be with that part of her family who lived there.
It is not at all unsusual that the brief marriage to FITCH was ignored in the wording of her headstone.
Nor is it unusual that the information on her DC is not correct regarding her birthplace.
Sue
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Many years later, in 1942, a daughter of Richard WEST and Ann Elizabeth dedicated a window to their memory in a local church. St Philips Presbyterian.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/167571557
Sue
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Funeral Notice Ann Elizabeth. New Lambton 1914
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/137294059
Death record.
WEST Ann E
6850/1914
Father JOHN
At NEW LAMBTON
Sue
ADDING
1917
This In Memoriam Notice for Ann Elizabeth mentions L. WEST and W BROAD.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/134871457
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..... it looks as if some time after the expiration of her gaol sentence in 1881, Ann went to Newcastle to be with that part of her family who lived there.
The daughter Ann Elizabeth left home in Tasmania on 13 Aug 1883 and took just the two daughters with her. She also took the furniture.
Her mother was in the Benevolent Asylum in Newcastle during the divorce proceedings in 1891 and refused to answer questions.
A man named William SUMMERS stated that he moved from Hobart to Newcastle and knew Ann Elizabeth from 1860 to 1879 when she lived in Barrack Street, Hobart with her parents.
If anyone wants to know how much a divorce cost in 1891 - images 49 - 55.
https://stors.tas.gov.au/SC89-1-4-128
Debra :)
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A man named William SUMMERS stated that he moved from Hobart to Newcastle and knew Ann Elizabeth from 1860 to 1879 when she lived in Barrack Street, Hobart with her parents.
This is a load of baloney. He says he lived in Liverpool Street with his parents 1860-1879. His parents lived in Macquarie Street. They were living in Franklin in 1862 and the next child was born in Hobart in 1865. William was married in 1873 and lived in Collins Street, Melville Street and Macquarie Street after that. He had to leave Hobart because he hit his sister in law over the head with a walking stick and she then caught up with him in Victoria chasing maintenance for her three illegitimate children.
Debra :)
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;D ;D
As highlighted by Debra,
William SUMMERS, according to his statement, lived almost next door to the WILLIAMS familyfor almost 20 years and also claims in the divorce proceedings, to have attended the same school as Ann Elizabeth WILLIAMS.
However, Ann Elizabeth could not sign her own name on her marriage to Ben BROAD in 1872! !
Sue
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Benjamin BROAD is involved in deception and avoiding creditors in 1887, and implicating a Mrs Annie GIFFORD. This involves a trip to Melbourne, September 1887, and court appearances in Hobart, November and December 1887, resulting in custodial sentences for both.
The Mercury 12 Nov 1887 p2
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9139707?
....Annie Gifford stated she was a married woman, living apart from her husband. She was acquainted with the prisoner Broad had travelled with him on the 28th September last to Melbourne in the Mararoa. There accompanied them Broad's son, witness' daughter, and a Miss Williams. Witness paid for the tickets. They travelled as Mr. and Mrs. Gifford and two children.....
Who is Miss WILLIAMS.
added -
"Mary WILLIAMS stated she knew. Mrs. GIFFORD, and had accompanied prisoner and her to Melbourne. She remembered the circumstances of the loss of, the, cash, while in Melbourne, and
prisoner had admitted to her having taken Mrs Gifford's money. "
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McFab has been online as recently as yesterday, but has not, it seems, noticed the many additional posts on his thread here since about 20th Feb.
I do hope he has seen the work done here for him and that it has helped in his search.
Sue
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sparrett, your right I have been unfortunately off line and apologies for the delay in getting back to you all, I’ve been holidaying in Fiji for most of February and wasn’t expecting the internet connection to be so bad over there. I did have a very brief connection a couple of times but was unable to read all the investigative work that’s been provided.
All this new information will take me sometime to take in, some of the info provided is completely outside any research I have collected previously. Thank you all again for all your valuable input.
Regards
McFab
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Thank you all for your valuable input and research time, the amount of information you have uncovered and provided has helped me immensely. I am now satisfied I have enough detail to allow me to move on with John & Ann’s lives and the rest of the family.
I have now successfully connected Ann Williams with Thomas Fitch and her conviction in 1880/81. There was an Elizabeth Langdon that came into Thomas Fitch’s life after Ann where they had 4 children and unfortunately Elizabeth died during her son’s delivery. Thomas Fitch had some serious issues which led him to spending a lot of time at the New Town Charitable Institute and a lot of police involvement.
Thank you again for your help I am hoping to complete the family history and hand it onto the grandkids in the near future, although there is still a couple of generations to complete.
Regards
McFab