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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Lavender13 on Sunday 22 January 23 01:36 GMT (UK)
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Hi all. I have a 1811 baptism for James Lochan here his parents were living in Blantyre Scotland at the time & he was baptised in the st Andrew's parish of Glasgow. I've got vision problems so I wonder if someone could keep me right on what this says.
As I understand it, it says something like
This twenty third day of June 1811 i baptised James lawful son of John Lochan, Cotton Spinner, and of his lawful wife, Mary Hall, a protestant. The child was born the nineteenth ......
Sponsors were John..... and Grace .....
I'm not sure of the sponsors names or if I'm reading everything correctly.
Side note, would anybody know where in Glasgow St Andrew's Catholic parish covers, or where I could find that info out? This is the parish James was baptised in
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The child was born the 19th instant. (meaning the current month).
Still staring at the sponsors names!
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A very wobbly maybe: John Sheenan and Grace McLuskie.
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Yes it is quite difficult to see. Thank you for your attempt, I appreciate the help
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A very wobbly maybe: John Sheenan and Grace McLuskie.
I see
John Heenan and Grace McLuskie
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A tricky one!
I think it is probably 'Sheenon'.
The first letter is similar to the first letter of 'Sponsor', but perhaps with an extra loop at the top to join it to the following 'h'.
Having said that, it is also very much like the first letter of 'J' in 'John', and 'June', but is 'Jheenon' a name?
It is also similar to the 'H' in Mary Hall's name, but has an extra line after it before the first 'e'.
The vowel between the two 'n's isn't an 'e'.
It is closed like an 'o', and it doesn't have the vertical line you find at the end of an 'a'.
If you're going to be trying to find him, you might have to do quite a lot of different searches.
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You'd get a better idea if you used the 'Contrast' option above the open image.
Annie
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I think it maybe Sheenan. There appears to be another squiggle/letter at the beginning of the surname when compared with the H in Mary Hall.
Gadget
Add - I've just seen goldie's reply about the difference between the letters, I hope my adjustment shows it up.
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I think you are most likely right. It seems the closest match when you compare things. Thank you so much for helping.
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St. Andrew's cathedral on Clydeside ( Clyde Street or Broomielaw ?) was the catholic cathedral as the original one up the brae next to the Infirmary became Protestant in the Reformation ( mid 1500s ).
There is a St. Andrew's protestant church nearby just off the Saltmarket but that's not the one you want. The Catholic baptism uses sponsors but I think the Protestant ceremony uses Godparents, same thing I believe. Also the fact that the lady was named ( protestant ) wouldn't have occurred if it was St.Andrew's in the Square ( Proddie one ).
The parish referred to as St.Andrew's supplants the Barony parish of the Established Church of Scotland ( Protestant) ... see oldmapsonline.org or the NLS maps.
cheers, Ian
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I think you are most likely right. It seems the closest match when you compare things. Thank you so much for helping.
Looking at it again, the penultimate letter could be an o rather than an a but I'd say that it would be most likely an a, misheard when written :-\
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Side note, would anybody know where in Glasgow St Andrew's Catholic parish covers, or where I could find that info out? This is the parish James was baptised in
Hi Lavender13
Have a look here at this old parish areas map. St Andrew's is marked as V111/8.
www.gla.ac.uk/myglasgow/library/files/special/exhibns/month/feb2006.html
Monica
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Keenon/Keenan?
I see the following Catholic marriage entry for a John Keenon on Scotland’s People:
KEENON
JOHN
COLLINS
ANN
29/10/1802
GLASGOW, ST ANDREW'S
And there is a baptism entry for Keenan on Scotland’s People:
KEENAN
JOHN
JOHN KEENAN / JANE LINDSAY
MALE
29/5/1826
11/2/1827
GLASGOW, ST ANDREW'S
Perhaps the father here would fit for your entry.
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Hi Dudel...
I think the consensus is the surname being Sheenon/Sheenan rather then Keenon/Keenan?
Annie
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I don’t strongly disagree with Sheenon but I’m not 100 percent convinced.
If it’s Sh, I don’t see the first line of the h going all the way down like we do in the h of The child. It has the ornateness of the H in Hall but with a squiggle. I don’t see much of a similarity to the S of Andrew Scott, the S here is much more at an angle and looping but that connects to a small letter so is not overly helpful.
Still plumping for an ornate K and Keenon. Would be good to see more of the text though.
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This twenty third day of June 1811 I baptised James
Lawful son of John Lochan, cotton spinner, and of his
Lawful wife, Mary Hall, a protestant. The child was
born the nineteenth instant. Sponsors were John
Sheenon and Grace Mc Luckie - Andrew Scott
Spelled Sheenon in the transcript
Scottish surnames in FindmyPast - Shennon and Shennan
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Still plumping for an ornate K and Keenon. Would be good to see more of the text though.
I agree with DudelsackHogg that it is Keenon (not Sheenon), despite the SP transcript.
Both the upper-case K and lower-case k (in McLuskie) have a distinctive extra curl at the end.
Are there any other entries on the same page in the same hand with a known K or k, for comparison?
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Compare the first letter to the S in Sponsor which is more or less a right slant. The second letter is then very much like an h as in This
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Compare the first letter to the S in Sponsor which is more or less a right slant. The second letter is then very much like an h as in This
Sorry, I can’t agree. As far as we can see the top of the S in Sponsors, it is different from this letter, which is clearly looped at the top.
If the second letter were h, the main downstroke on the left would be longer, long enough to sit on the line (as with the h in this, third, John, etc.), but this one isn’t sitting on the line. Granted it’s a subtle distinction, but it’s enough to persuade me that it’s not a letter h but part of a capital letter K.
The k in McLuskie, though lower-case, has the same form, with that extra kick at the end. Otherwise, counting the penstrokes carefully, you would have to read that name as McLushue, which isn’t likely.
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My curiosity got the better of me and I had credits on SP, so decided to splash out on the 1811 KEENON, CATHERINE (Catholic Registers Births and Baptisms MP 62 1 1 161,
Glasgow, St Andrew's) to see how it's written.
KEENON, CATHERINE Parents: JOHN KEENON / CATHERINE MCGERAGLE.
Also on the page MCCANNA, MARY Parents: CHARLES MCCANNA / ROSE KERR
and KELLY, ROSE Parents: JOHN KELLY / HELEN DURAS
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Thanks for posting those images, DudelsackHogg. I think they clinch it, but let’s see what Lavender13 thinks.
(Interesting that this clerk writes the capital R of Rose and Robert in similar style to the K, with an extra curl at the end!)
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decided to splash out on the 1811 KEENON, CATHERINE (Catholic Registers Births and Baptisms MP 62 1 1 161,
Glasgow, St Andrew's) to see how it's written.
KEENON, CATHERINE Parents: JOHN KEENON / CATHERINE MCGERAGLE.
Also on the page MCCANNA, MARY Parents: CHARLES MCCANNA / ROSE KERR
and KELLY, ROSE Parents: JOHN KELLY / HELEN DURAS
Great comparisons, I agree this definitely shows the difference between 'K' & 'Sh'...
Of course it's always an idea to seek out other instances of letter formation where there's doubt & this does prove the difference.
The 'Kelly' one was interesting to see as I actually know a chap (in my in-laws' family) with the surname Shelley.
Annie
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I thought I'd add this too...
It's interesting to know, surnames can/do change over time as many were written how they sounded.
An example from the above list of surnames, based on an Irish accent...
McGeragle/McGarrigal (variants)
McCanna/McKenna (variants)
Kerr/Carr (variants)
Duras/Doris (variants)
Annie
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Thank you everyone for your input. I really appreciate it. It seems to me that it is most likely to be Keenon. These records can be so tricky so I really appreciate everyone's time and effort to decipher this.