RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: WarrenSA on Wednesday 11 January 23 16:42 GMT (UK)
-
My great grandmother Josephine Andrina Penery was born 1889 in South Africa. She was married to my great grandfather Ernest Luscombe Penery (born Plymouth England in 1884) and later remarried Philip Van Heerden in 1940, Johannesburg, Transvaal.
I have recently found a document reflecting that Josephine was murdered on 5 November 1958 in Kennilworth, Johannesburg. This document reflects her maiden name as SMITH.
I have not been able to trace any marriage document / record for the marriage between Josephine and my great grandfather Ernest nor any birth records for her. I would be most happy if anyone could possibly advise me of who Josephine Andrina Smiths parents / siblings were.
-
gggf's first names might be different, but don't you think that this has to be their marriage?:
South Africa, Transvaal, Civil Marriages, 1870-1930
Name: Harold Leonard Preenerf or Preeney
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 10 Jul 1907
Event Place (Original): Germiston, Witwatersrand, Transvaal, South Africa
Sex: Male
Age: 23
Birth Year (Estimated): 1884
Spouse's Name: Josephine Andriana Smith
Spouse's Sex: Female
Spouse's Age: 21
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated): 1886
-
image: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91J-13WN
Update:
3 weeks later a son in the same location ....
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9T7B-968?i=117
-
It sounds as if you've got her marriage to Phil v Heerden already, but it might be useful to someone else:
South Africa, Civil Marriage Records, 1840-1973
Name: Philip Vanheerden
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 4 Jul 1940
Event Place (Original): Johannesburg, Johannesburg, Transvaal, South Africa
District: Johannesburg
Sex: Male
Age: 42
Birth Year (Estimated): 1898
Spouse's Name: Josephine Penery
Spouse's Sex: Female
Spouse's Age: 48
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated): 1892
Certificate Number: 1266
-
Image: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS29-J3T5-D
-
Josephine’s death certificate confirms cause of death and her maiden name. It also gives the inquest number.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:DTG7-57PZ
-
Hi Everyone,
The similarity on the marriage certificate for Josephine Andrina Smith to Harold Leonard Preenerf or Preeney in 1907 are really strange.
My great grandfather was definitely Ernest Luscombe Penery, also born on Plymouth Devonshire England in 1884. This would be the same date that Harold Leonard Preenerf or Preeney was born (23 Years old on the marriage certificate in 1907).
Josephine's death certificate has birth Year as 25.08.1889 whereas her age on the marriage certificate is 21, that would mean this Josephine was born in 1886 (different birth Year).
Her marriage to Philip Van Heerden lists her age as 48 in 1940 (birth Year would be 1892).
Is it possible my great grandfather gave a different name when he married, he did give the correct name when my grandfather was born in 1906/7.
-
gggf's first names might be different, but don't you think that this has to be their marriage?:
South Africa, Transvaal, Civil Marriages, 1870-1930
Name: Harold Leonard Preenerf or Preeney
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 10 Jul 1907
Event Place (Original): Germiston, Witwatersrand, Transvaal, South Africa
Sex: Male
Age: 23
Birth Year (Estimated): 1884
Spouse's Name: Josephine Andriana Smith
Spouse's Sex: Female
Spouse's Age: 21
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated): 1886
-
image: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91J-13WN
Update:
3 weeks later a son in the same location ....
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9T7B-968?i=117
They also had a daughter born on Jan 25th, 1915 to Ernest Luscombe Penery , occupation hospital orderly & Josephine bpt 30th May St John the Divine Belgravia Johannesburg
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GT7T-9TX3?i=45&cc=1468076
-
my great grandfather Ernest Luscombe Penery (born Plymouth England in 1884)
Is this your Gt Grandfather?
son of Charles, Joiner & Elizabeth born July 11th, 1884 Bapt Sept 11th
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-QGHR-W?i=230&cc=1804330&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AKCS8-NFL
PENERY, ERNEST LUSCOMBE mmn SMITH
GRO Reference: 1884 S Quarter in PLYMOUTH Volume 05B Page 287
Ernest Luscombe PENERY, occupation Clerk
Attestation service number 3674
Attestation corps 3rd Bn Devon Regt
Document type Attestation
Birth parish St Peters
Birth town Plymouth
Birth county Devon
Year 1900
Attestation date 06 Oct 1900
Attestation age years 17 months 9
Father C W Penery,
Mother E J Penery,
older brother W Penery,
younger brother H H Penery
Record set British Army Service Records
1901 census
Ernest Luscombe Penery age 18, single, Private in Royal Army Medical Corps at
Maida & Pandora Barracks Harrow Rd, Aldershort, Hampshire, England
forgot to add hello and a warm welcome to Rootschat :)
-
I also noticed that the Josephine on the marriage certificate to Harold Leonard Preenery was spelt slightly different, Jospehine ANDRIANA Smith as opposed to ANDRINA.
-
Yes Ernest Luscombe Penery is my great grandfather.
-
Josephine's death certificate has birth Year as 25.08.1889 whereas her age on the marriage certificate is 21, that would mean this Josephine was born in 1886 (different birth Year).
YOB=1885/6 or YOB=1891/2 ... Yes, I had seen the difference, but nothing that I haven't seen before ..
Nevertheless I wondered whether she'd shaved a "few" years off her age when she married Phil as he is younger. And, abt 6 years older than her husband does not sound as bad as abt 12 years older. :-)
(Ex??) husband Ernest seems to have had some botox as well when he marries the much younger Lucy in 1918: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-X4QV-1C?i=2853
-
I also noticed that the Josephine on the marriage certificate to Harold Leonard Preenery was spelt slightly different, Jospehine ANDRIANA Smith as opposed to ANDRINA.
I can only assume that most people were more used to the name Adriana, so it might be a little typo. (it is still better than the any of the grooms names :) ).
-
(Ex??) husband Ernest seems to have had some botox as well when he marries the much younger Lucy in 1918: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-X4QV-1C?i=2853
On this record his age written as 40
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6NJJ-X18M
It’s a shame no father’s name given on the marriage records
WarrenSA
Do you know when Ernest arrived in SA?
-
Ernest Luscombe Penery would have arrived in South Africa in 1900/01 where he served in the Royal Army Medical Corps in the Cape Colony during the Anglo Boer War. I have hi Queens South Africa Medal with date clasps 1901 - 1902.
He seemed to move from the Cape to the Transvaal (children born there) and then Durban (children born there). Children also born in Pietermaritzburg in 1922.
I did find a listing in 1922 in now Mozambique for a British birth for a Ernest Luscombe Penery, i think this should have been "death" and not "birth". After this he disappears from record.
-
Ernest Luscombe Penery would have arrived in South Africa in 1900/01 where he served in the Royal Army Medical Corps in the Cape Colony during the Anglo Boer War. I have hi Queens South Africa Medal with date clasps 1901 - 1902.
On 31 March 1901 Ernest was still in the UK (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9XS-KWV). Presently I can’t find his name among the soldiers who served in the Boer War, so I'm not sure what is going on there.
It seems that he received the Victory and British medal for service during WW1: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4589924
-
I did find a listing in 1922 in now Mozambique for a British birth for a Ernest Luscombe Penery, i think this should have been "death" and not "birth". After this he disappears from record.
Ernest L Penery
Birth year 1916-20
Place Lourenco Marques, Mozambique
Source Gro Consular Birth Indices (1849 To 1965)
Record set British Armed Forces And Overseas Births And Baptisms
Is it possible that there are two ELP :-\
The other 1918 marriage detail posted by Treespirit to Lucy birth for a son born 1920
father's occupation railway clerk, one of the sponsors has the same surname as his wife.
1920 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6FW3-75HJ
and another born
1922 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6XNV-PVK9
his death
1922 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6NXS-JW5Y, father E L Penery
Did she and her son both die in UK?
1998 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZX-Q5XZ
2007 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:CB2Q-RZMM
WarrenSA - sorry not found a birth for your Gt Grandmother Josephine Andrina Smith ???